Should I pay this money back?

OK. So when I was penniless, my therapist saw me for free which was very generous and big-hearted.

Today for the second or third time, she gave the example of how she has supported me by stating that she's spent $3k of her own money on my therapy. I think she means the money she spent on the room, not including paying herself iyswim. She said it was her free choice and she was happy to do so, but I don't know if that's really the case. I don't know if I'm supposed to say I'll pay it back (in installments) and I hesitate to offer because I think she'll think I'm chucking her goodwill in her face.

She's said the door slamming thing isn't how she expects to be treated as she is constantly bending over backwards for me, and now I feel on the back foot. I don't think storming out and banging a door is a good way of handling a situation at all, but I feel...stupid, or something, for not realising that she still feels she is over extending herself, though I pay now, and that maybe I'm not grateful enough in her eyes.

Should I offer to pay her back? How do I bring it up in a way that doesn't get her back up?

I would just start paying her back and then you don't have to worry about if you are grateful enough. although I suspect that you are.

I suggest you thank her again for her support, and say that you would like to pay her back.

Then see what she says.

I think it is fairly rotten of her to throw it at you all the time. Paying her (or finding another) would seem the way to go to me. I would not bother talking to her about it if it were me.

i agree with stopdog that it seems she pulls out the money thing and throws it at you. it seems she does it to give you a guilt trip when she doesn't like your behavior. while i generally think your T means well i don't find her very professional. i'd probably find a new T and pay her back. if she feels she is bending over backwards that is her issue and her lack of boundaries that she needs to deal with in her own therapy--not with you! you are not responsible for her lack of boundaries.

Definitely am appreciative, for sure. I'm not sure I could just start paying her back without having a conversation about it. I can see her getting annoyed and calling me passive aggressive if I do that.

Yes. I suppose I am intensely uncomfortable at even saying it out that simply, but there's probably no easier way to say it.

In fairness I think what she's aiming at doing is giving me solid proof that she gives a sh#t. I think. Who knows.

The fact she's bringing it up at all says to me that she attached some expectations to it. Maybe not to be paid back but somehow you'd stay grateful to her or something. THat isn't a true gift and this is her "stuff" interfering with her ability to do a good job as a therapist.
I say pay her back and shut her up.

Wow... I have to agree that it's rotten of her. I mean, that's very kind and generous of her to spend that money on you in the first place (!) - but wow - it sounds like there are strings attached. And, I wonder if those strings are compromising your therapy. How are you going to be able to figure out your own needs, or how to stand up for yourself, or whatever you need to figure out - if you can't even express your anger or frustration with her without having to worry about looking like your not grateful enough for what she's done.

It seems crazy-making to me (sorry). Like you'll never be able to "grateful enough" to make her happy (though maybe I'm reading my own stuff into it).

So, I don't know - maybe I'm quick to run - but I think I'd seriously consider a new T too here. I'd actually be a little wary about paying her back, because it's not clear what you're paying back (the room rental? the electricity? etc.) If you really want to, I'd actually look at how many sessions she did for free, and try to pay back the normal rate for those sessions (or whatever you normally pay after your insurance) - something that you can get your head around, rather than a magical number that she just pulls out of the air.

But really, I kind of think this falls into the category of "reasons your T needs to go get some supervision". Sorry... good luck with it.

Sometimes I really agree with all you are saying and that I should go, but then other times it all feels ok and beneficial and good.

I can't decide if my brain is trying to trick me into staying in something that isn't good for me (by wanting to stay in the relationship with my therapist and persevere towards a good outcome) or if it's trying to trick me into running away (using the excuse of the therapist not being good enough).

That's a nice thought, but it still makes me worry about her as a therapist.

From what I've read (and I'm still trying to figure it out too, so definitely not an expert) - the therapist isn't really there to satisfy our needs. If you're feeling like "nobody cares" - the therapist is NEVER going to be able to care ENOUGH to make that feeling go away. It's a big, life thing based on all your experiences growing up.

And, the therapist should KNOW that.

I totally agree, it's great and can be helpful to have the therapist CARE (otherwise, how do we talk about painful stuff). But that caring [edit: should NOT!] be the end-all, be-all of therapy... it should be a bridge for you to start fixing the stuff... (insert something here... I don't actually know how this happens yet!)

Anyway, sorry again... I feel like I'm starting to get a bit rant-y. "Not caring" is a big issue for me, so it's probably setting me off a tiny bit... hope some of it helps anyway!

I read the door slamming post also. I dont think its about the money. It might be easier for you to focus on the money, or to switch ts, but i think that just postpones solving the pain, solving the real issue.

Your other thread reminds me of me and my t a lot, like when he says he WANTS to buy me a birthday present (but never actually does) or when he offered to give me a ride home from the hospital - i refused it, but he emphasized how he WANTED to give me a ride. Its hard for me to accept even his saying that.

A gf texted me yesterday (i wrote about it somewheres on pc) just asking how i was feeling, and it gave me a minor panic attack. I am not used to people caring about me; I am used to people demanding something from me. I feel like i am moving in slow motion with her. I cant reason myself out of my panic attack. All i could do was be honest and non-accusatory with her. I think that is all your t is asking of you - as parents nowadays tell their little kids, "Use your words!" - that just gets to me, for some reason. But that IS exactly what we are trying to do in t - put words to feelings hitherto undescribed and therefore unprocessed, unintegrated.

Eta - it doesnt make sense to have bad feelings about somebody trying to be nice to us. But we do. We can say its the other persons fault, but this is getting to be one big effing coincidence that we ALL have this problem! KWIM?

But this is where I struggle. If she is essentially saying that I am negative and don't appreciate what people do give me - well, what if she's right?? Is she not entitled to point this out?..

I am really muddled.

It's not therapeutic to point it out constantly when you've already told her it makes you uncomfortable. And no she's no entitled to anything in your therapy. And that money doesn't entitle her to any rights either.

She does have supervision (a new person I think, who revolutionized our boundaries I suspect) and I can't pay her back her full fee because it her rate is $220 per hour, and I clocked up at least six hours a week for three months. If I broach paying her back, I'll pitch for this $3000 mark which is what keeps coming up.

I did feel like there wasn't room for my spiky unhappiness in the session last night, and it quickly flashed to anger because I felt like I was being gagged and shunted out of the room without it being heard.

I agree with all you've said here, and I have got into a tricky situation on an exhausting loop of her caring or not caring and is it enough or not.

I think she's just trying to walk you through what it means to be cared for, and you maybe aren't getting that yet.

Maybe she needs a different approach, maybe you need more work on it, maybe you need to work it out with someone else, I don't know. But based on the history of your posts here with her, I don't think it's anything as simple and crass as trying to guilt you about the money.

However... I think there is separate value in trying to pay her back. Even if it's just an extra $10 a week or something, or that you let her know you're paying it forward to a charity, so that someone else gets some of the benefit you did now that your financial circumstance is a bit better.

And as for the door slamming, could she have just been trying to set a boundary? Seems like a reasonable limit for her to set.... not because she saw you for free or anything, but just as a basic expectation.

If she is dealing with countertransference, a feeling that you've bitten the hand that fed you type... well, that would be different- up to you to decide since we weren't there.

Honestly, because of the way she talked to you acting like you were obligated to be a good little well-behaved client because she did a favor for you, I would just leave her and not pay anything back. Doing something nice to be charitable is one thing. Doing something nice so you can use it against the person is another.

I do not find storming out and slamming a door to be a big deal. If a therapist cannot handle such a thing, it is their problem.

Hankster, your post here resonated with me in ways I can't put into words. Could you say more and drill down into your experiences of similar??

I had been talking about feeling cornered and pushed into telling a friend something about sexual assault a few days ago. The friend was not doing anything out of badness, and in days gone by we talked with vivid candour, but things have changed (hardly ever see each other) and she was relentlessly questioning me about my sex life and I ended up telling her to make her understand why I'm not sexually active at the moment. And it was...fine, I felt pretty exposed, but ultimately ok at telling this person, and it got to the point where I knew if I lied and made up a different excuse I would feel disturbed and awful after she'd gone home.

I said to my therapist I felt cornered by this friend, and she kind of said I set my friend up to fail - that if she didn't take an interest in me, I'd be mad, and then when she did take an interest, I felt cornered so wasn't happy either. And then she said her bit about escorting me to the dentist and lo and behold a few days later, I was trying to say how I felt which was that I am sad I'm not important to anyone, which she interpreted as me saying she doesn't care at all. So I set her up to fail too, and myself.

If she chose to help you, there should be no strings attached. It is not the same as if you had negotiated free sessions with an expectation of later payment. This truly sounds like her issue.
I had a t. once (who began as a rather hard-rule person re: money) who decided to see me for half, then for free. Whenever I brought it up (he said he would fight with the ins. co. for money) he said "It is not your problem." End of conversation. I think that is professional.
I have chosen to give people money/help; and if I choose to do it, they do NOT hear about it from me later. I do not expect anything for something I freely choose to give.
It isn't fair to the other person, who probably doesn't feel great about needing help to begin with...(& I know that feeling too...)
Sorry, she can't have expectations of your behavior based upon her "kindness" towards you, she is doing a job. Your job is to bring yourself to the sessions and be as honest/open as you can---and to try new things to change your life...

i know i'm pretty blunt in my responses so please don't think i'm saying i think it is easy to deal with all this. it's confusing when there is both good and bad in the T relationship. it makes it easy to explain away the bad and i know you've said your T has helped you. what you're saying here kind of reminds me of what it is like to date someone who is both hot and cold toward you. you never quite know where you stand and it is a bit crazymaking. usually, for me things had to get pretty bad before i finally got it that the person was never going to be consistent and really there for me. that was definitely their issue though and not mine. unfortunately, it really taps into one's unmet needs and gives the sense of always holding out hope for things to work out. the thing is that doesn't happen and you are left in that place of always hoping for it to work out but coming up with a bag half-empty. you deserve a T who is totally professional and not one who is sometimes professional and sometimes not.

so, i think it is accepting that your T has done some things well but also there have been other areas where she really hasn't acted professionally. if it's a very occasional thing for a T to be unprofessional it is one thing but when it is a pattern then that is different. it seems to be a pattern with your T...

Well, not constantly, but two or three...

Perhaps entitled isn't the right word, but I do want honest feedback on how I'm making the therapist feel? Because surely that's the key to knowing where I go wrong out in the world, I suppose? And also because if I'm being inadvertantly horrible to someone, well I want to know.

Yes to the door slamming! I have never done it before, I was surprised at myself, but I felt it was either exit the room in a volatile way (I seized the door with too much force, it went flying into the wall with a bang) or give into a mad urge to beg her for more time, or slink out pathetically because it was nowhere nearly enough. I was a mess, and I got angry at her smiling brightly at me like all was fine and couldn't click seamlessly back into being able to deal with the world.

Regarding the money, I just wonder if she resents it more than she says.

Yeah, I did feel like I was supposed to be a good client. She didn't do it to use it against me, though.

I don't think she couldn't handle it or was scared, etc. I'd say she thought 'ungrateful little *****', locked up her office and then gave it no more thought. Fair enough, really. Slamming doors was not a mature way to go about communicating whatever it was I was trying to communicate.

Maybe you can just ask her that.

And if she's only mentioned it 2-3 times and each time was in the support of the argument that she does care for you, evaluate that and see what seems more reasonable to you as far as her feelings- she secretly (?) resents you, or she might just really want you to get that she cares, or perhaps some of both. What does your gut say? Not your fears, but your intuition.

Or perhaps it is not that she resents funding the therapy, but maybe regrets that you didn't learn from it that she cares for you?

I don't say it is a mature way to communicate- just that it does not equal ungrateful little ****.

I think it is a mixture.

Quite a few times now she has said she's working harder than me and I need to meet her halfway. I can't seem to figure out how to do that steadily though? Other times I will say hey I am trying really hard and she says yes I know.

I feel like I've failed therapy in her eyes. The first six months were so validating and empowering and the message I got from her was that I would be really able to fulfill my potential as a human being one day. It was like lovebombing, in a good way - it certainly broke my pattern of being reckless with myself and shrugging of inflicting damage to myself.

But the last six are almost like a palliative care therapy, where she can see I'm actually not as great as she mistakenly thought at first and now it's about teaching me to be grateful for whatever I can get, even if it's not really good enough.

That sounds a bit nuts, and I'm not saying it's truth, I know how fogged up my life lens is just now. But it feels like that's how we roll.

No, I know I guess what I mean is it wasn't about her not being able to handle it, because she wouldn't have been intimidated, more about her being annoyed.

I think she might be a little frustrated at the difficulty you have trusting and being open with her.

It's understandable on both sides (her frustration and your reluctance).

When I was a child anything nice that was done for me was immediately then used to point out what an awful person I was (i do X for you and you can't even do Y. You are a bad person).

It took awhile to start trusting that people could care and do so without strings. It was also hard for me to not feel like I was being set up when people do nice things or care. Just kept waiting and/or creating the next bad thing they would do.

What if you took a moment and entertained the idea that she was pointing out the money to show that she cared? Not as a method to point out how ungrateful you were, but to point out concrete ways in which she was showing you that she cared.

Perhaps it was a way to provide evidence that SHE is willing to put her money where her mouth is, so to speak.

What if she doesn't expect you to do anything except he happy and open to the fact that she does care?