[sidony]

Okay you guys know I recently started group therapy. I guess it's not going too badly. I don't dread going there like I thought I would. And it's interesting even when it's scary. But here's one thing that weirded me out:

My own therapist runs the group. And most everybody in the group also sees him for either individual therapy or couples therapy. One girl in the group sometimes talks about her couples sessions and how she feels about our therapist. She was saying that she's glad she found him and that he's helped her a lot with her relationship -- and then she went on to say that she tells him (the therapist) that she loves him while she's seeing him in her other sessions. I remember being really weirded out by that. I mean, I can barely get out the fact that I like him when asked directly (which he has done before), much less say that I love him. But of course I do love him -- he's helping me tremendously and I'm so glad I found him. So I guess I'm jealous of the other girl who feels free to tell him that directly. I don't think I'd ever feel that free. After all it seems like it'd be inappropriate. I mean, wouldn't it? Even when it's not a romantic attraction kind of thing? (The girl who says this is clearly not in love with the therapist or anything -- she just doesn't mind telling him she loves him.)

Oh, if anybody can't tell from this, I'm scared of that four-letter L word. :-)

Would anyone else be weirded out by that? Is it just me? And no, I'm not going to talk about that in the group (I'd rather die). But it messes with my head.

Sidony

[sunrise]

Sidony, I think I would be weirded out by it too. The part that would get me is not that she says she loves the therapist, but that she feels the need to share that with everyone with T present. It sounds like attention getting to me, "look at me, look at me." I do love my T too (not romantically), I guess, because he is such a great guy and has helped me so much, but I would not make that the topic of conversation with all these other people who are his clients. I would be hard pressed to tell T that alone in session and probably wouldn't, but it just seems very weird this woman takes up group time telling people about her love for the T. Right while he is sitting there! Is this a typical topic of conversation for your group?

hey. does she say how he responds to her when she says that she loves him? does he take it well? i guess he does or she wouldn't be telling the group. i'm always amazed at how different people can be! some people are able to say what is on their mind and others (like me) find that so very much harder. sometimes i can find it quite liberating to hear what other people have said / done. hear what they do and hear about the consequences of that and that can give me courage to say / do things that i thought i never would.

do you know what the jealousy is about? is it about her (seemingly) not caring so much of what other people (incl therapist) think of her? does she have a bubbly tone so it comes across as half joking half serious?

i've been in a similar position once. and someone kept going on about how they loved the person. transference. it would make me cringe inside too. not sure why. maybe because... if you tell them then they will hurt / abuse you. thats my experience of it at any rate. if they think they can hurt you then of course they can. they don't need to know. and i just wanted her to SHUT UP. it might be worth trying to talk to him about how you felt about her saying that. maybe. up to you i guess. i'd find that easier than talking about my feelings for him, though.

[sidony]

Okay so I'm glad I'm not the only one who'd be weirded out. I can't remember exactly what led up to her saying that, but she always tries to talk about how she feels about everyone, up to and including the therapist. From what I've read about group therapy, that's really kind of what you're supposed to do. With her, it seems like she's trying really really hard to do exactly that. The book I read on group therapy gave names to the different types of patients -- I would say that she is the "therapist-helper" type. She tries to talk to other people the way the therapist would (asking them to clarify how they feel, etc.). It's a little annoying, but it's also very helpful to those of us who are new (she gets me engaged in the conversation -- something that's really hard for me to get into because I'm so shy). She's also really nice so don't think I'm trying to say she's all pretentious or anything. But I guess I was just taken aback by being that open about her feelings for the therapist. Am I supposed to aspire to being that open? I don't know if I'd think it was a good thing or a bad thing.

As far as jealousy, I think I'm jealous of the fact that our therapist will know that she loves him. With me it'll never be a certainty (though he's insightful enough to figure that out I guess).

I hear "sibling rivalry" is common in group therapy.....

This whole group therapy thing is messing with my head!

Sidony

[Perna]

I remember when I was in group and there were others more "advanced" than I was. I just used them as "examples" and people I wanted to emulate? I got there eventually?

I'm always a little bit repelled from people who are very expressive with intense emotions. Mostly because my mother was like that and invasive with them (and insensitive to my emotional needs). If she detected that I was feeling embarrassed by something she was saying then she would persist and get louder or whatever so I'd feel really exceptionally embarrassed. Then she would further embarrass me by laughing at my embarrassment. I guess I'm a bit over-controlled with my emotions in consequence. I don't much like it when people are (what I perceive as) under-controlled. I can be under-controlled at times and I surely beat myself up for that later.

So I think that I'd cringe from her a little (I'd try and mask that) if I found her to be overly expressive. But I guess it is hard for me to know what is going on...

> Am I supposed to aspire to being that open? I don't know if I'd think it was a good thing or a bad thing.

Lol. I hear you there :-) For all you know... T is trying to help her work on validating her own emotions rather than expressing them (for others to validate). Who knows... Really ;-) It could be that her 'helpfulness' is a defence against disclosing herself. It could be that the emotions she does display (such as the transference love) are similarly defences against stuff that goes deeper for her. I'm just saying that in the sense that it really is impossible to say who is showing the most progress or whatever... It isn't like a race where you can measure people one against the other. It is about a gradual unfolding of YOU.

> As far as jealousy, I think I'm jealous of the fact that our therapist will know that she loves him. With me it'll never be a certainty

That is your decision. Maybe what she has done... Is opened up a new possibility to you... A possibility where you tell him how you feel (with respect to the feeling of love). Maybe that possibility is creating anxiety?

If you are thinking 'I would never ever ever ever ever *tell* him in one million years' then I really and truely do have lots of sympathy. But my question for you is: Why not? Why don't you tell him?

Sounds like an extremely productive / useful therapy group to me!!

:-)

[Hopefull]

I find myself wondering what motivates her to say that she loves him and be helpful with him. Does she feel a need for his attention? Approval? I think that there is possibly more to her behavior than just openess. I could be wrong of course because some of my addiction counseling coursing makes me a bit suspicious at times. Besides, I remembering wanting to please my former T. I felt like she was a mother figure. I never told her about it either. My current T has heard about some of my transferance on her.

[sidony]

Thanks for all the input! Yeah it is hard to tell exactly what's going on. This group therapy stuff is more interesting than I expected.

Alexandra, I tend to be very controlled with emotional expressiveness too. My mother didn't torment me with it (sorry that happened to you!), but emotional expressiveness was never modeled for me as a child. Everybody just masks how they feel in my family. For instance, I have never once seen my father cry. I've only seen my mother cry maybe 3 times (same with my sister). Though Mom did at least model anger -- she modeled it so well that I now avoid even the slightest expression of it. This is going to be interesting in group therapy since I'm supposed to express the emotions that I typically suppress. But how can I express what I've suppressed? I can't even feel it!

You're right that I'm anxious about the possibility of ever telling the therapist that I love him. I might one of these days, hopefully not so late that it's 3 minutes before he retires or something like that. I guess from this statement it's obvious that I'm planning to stick around in therapy for years. :-)

And Hopefull -- yeah I really can't tell what her motivations are. I'm guessing that she's just trying to do what she thinks we're supposed to do. But maybe she was always way expressive and is working on something different I don't know.

I do remember reading that people in group should talk about the therapist, but I think in the cases I was reading it was a therapist who ONLY worked with the members in the context of the group (not simultaneously with individual or couples therapy). At any rate, I have no intention of talking about my individual therapy sessions during group. That will remain completely private. I think I'd quit the group if I were expected to share that, but I doubt it's expected. I think it's just this particular member who lets us in on a few details about her other sessions. And like I said, it weirds me out. :-)

Thanks for all the input!

Sidony

I would be totally weirded out by that, and probably insanely jealous, too. Not only would the whole love thing bother me, but I would also be totally disturbed by the fact that by being in the group, it has confirmed that my T has other clients. I know that sounds strange, but my idealistic tendencies, I have built up this ridiculous thing in my mind in which I have decided my T has no other clients, lol. So being in group with a bunch of people who all have my T for individual therapy would kill me. The whole fantasy would be blown to pieces. I would feel jealous and intimidated of each person's individual relationship with T.

I AM SO PATHETIC, I WANT TO HIDE UNDER MY BED AND NOT COME OUT FOR THREE YEARS.

[sidony]

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pinksoil said:
I would be totally weirded out by that, and probably insanely jealous, too. Not only would the whole love thing bother me, but I would also be totally disturbed by the fact that by being in the group, it has confirmed that my T has other clients.

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You're not alone in this. One of the reasons I refused to try group therapy for so long was that I didn't want to meet his other clients either. I knew I'd be jealous. Guess it must be normal.....

Sid

[(JD)]

I don't do group.

Don't you think that her having to talk about the T only represents her insecurities and other problems? You really don't believe everything everyone says, do you?

I am more concerned that your T asks you in front of others? if you like him??? What's up with that? Why does your T need to be validated, and openly like that? That's weird behavior, imo.

[sidony]

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_Sky said:
I don't do group.

Don't you think that her having to talk about the T only represents her insecurities and other problems? You really don't believe everything everyone says, do you?

I am more concerned that your T asks you in front of others? if you like him??? What's up with that? Why does your T need to be validated, and openly like that? That's weird behavior, imo.

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No no my therapist has never asked me in front of others what I thought of him (it's only in individual therapy that he has asked me how I felt about him -- sorry if I was unclear on that). Actually the therapist says very little in group therapy (just facilitates the conversation between the members). She chose to talk about her other sessions, no one directed her to do that.

No I don't believe everything anyone says, but why would she lie about that? And as I said, there's reason to think that talking about your emotions is something good to do in group therapy. But for me there are lots of limits, and I sure wouldn't discuss anything about individual therapy there. The whole group thing just weirds me out in general....

Sid

[sunrise]

Pinksoil, I hear ya! ((((hugs)))) I could never in a million years do group with my T's other clients. Aaaacckkk! You are very brave, sidony.

I guess I have so much work to do in individual therapy, I can't conceive that group would be helpful to me at this point. I would find it more useful to do 2 individual sessions per week.

[Soidhonia]

Hello Sidony.
I am sure with group therapy being new to you at this point, there are many things you will be somewhat uncomfortable with from others talking about things you are not ready to talk about yourself. It is okay to feel that you have feelings regarding your therapist. I feel that a lot of people feel thankful and kind appreciation for their therapists because they have helped them overcome obstacles in their lives and have been sympathetic to their suffering. The main objective is not to fell threatened that others feel or act differently than you would act or feel, and that you do not take on the negative aspects of feeling left out or different.
Some people are just not as open as othere people are in groups. Journaling is a good option for people that are not open in public or group settings or as open as they feel they should be. Time takes care of a lot of the social issues wehn you are more comfortable with the group it is easier to focus on sharig in a more trustful manner. Take care and good day. Soidhonia

I really to think it sounds like a terrific (and challenging, and terrific because of challenging) group!

Part of the motivation for group therapy is that it is really hard for therapists to meet peoples twinship needs while staying within boundaries. Twinship needs are more appropriately met by peers anyway. Group therapy gives you guys the opportunity to find other individuals like you in the therapy group. Have you noticed how others respond to her when she says that she told him she loved him? You might find that there are some others in the group who feel similarly to you and you might find that there are some others who have also told him...

I'd say that she is doing the best she can (same as everyone else). I do think that it is important not to judge her negatively because we feel bad in response. Our feeling bad is our own issue and its nice to try and figure where that is coming from (as you are doing) rather than projecting that onto her by thinking she must have undesirable personality traits or whatever.

Sometimes philosophers talk of knowledge as a narrowing of possibilities. It is like there are all these possibilities and when we learn something then some of those possibilities are ruled out. My supervisor has this interesting (and somewhat unconventional) view on that: Sometimes learning something new involves more possibilities opening up to us. I think that that is what has happened here. She opened up for you the possibility of another way of being: Where you could tell him 'I love you' in a way that wasn't fearful of rejection. (Not sure if she was bold like that or if she was more reserved / scared with it or what). But it has opened up more possibilities which means you have more choices as to who you want to be as a person.

Do you want to do more courageous things like that? (Maybe not that thing in particular, but maybe be more courageous in general)? Dunno...

But it does sound like a really terrific group.

I'd find it hard to find out about t's other clients too - initially. But then... I think it would be kinda cool to do group therapy with them as well.

Have you read the Deborah Lott book? 'In session'? She used to go to group therapy and then started meeting the women after therapy for coffee... And they got to be friends and they would start discussing therapy with each other over coffee. She said she found it so immensely helpful for processing feelings of love for therapist and stuff like that. Twinship. There are other people like you. Interpersonal skills (and feelings of acceptance by others) that translates back to peers and friends IRL. What a terrific opportunity. I'm a little jealous... I wish I could do group with t's other clients. Wah!

[sidony]

I appreciate all the responses I've gotten on here. I went to group therapy again tonight. It's definitely weird being with my therapist's other clients, but I'm getting used to it.

There was a lot of talk about being new to the group, and I talked about how I appreciated the people who are trying to help me. I think I'll keep a note of how I was freaked out before by the girl saying she loved the therapist (not that I'd really forget). Maybe one day when I'm a more "advanced" member of the group I can talk about that (if it seems like a good idea then). In the meantime, I'll stick with subjects I'm capable of handling.

I don't know if I feel like I have much in common with the other members of the group (certainly we have very different lives), but that's not so bad. They're nice. I probably would like to meet with them socially (like in the book Alexandra mentioned), but that's not allowed in my group (we're not supposed to socialize outside of the group). I understand that as it leaves all interaction open to be used as subjects in therapy.

I spent the first half of group being extremely uncomfortable. Then I sort of got engaged toward the end. In the beginning I always feel like I have nothing to say. After a while I participate though. I'm betting my therapist would like me to give him more to work with, but he'll have to wait. I can jump into serious discussion in individual therapy, but in the group I don't have a clue where to begin. Some of the subjects seem really trivial, but they lead to discussion about how people are interacting. It's interesting. I guess I'll try to start talking about it some more in individual therapy too. Will just see how it goes.....

Thanks everyone!
Sidony

When I was doing DBT there was some confusion as to whether were were allowed to socialise outside group or not. The upshot was that Linehan considered it to be a mixed blessing... Having more friendships can be a good thing (and can help consolidate gains). But there was also the possibility of members falling out which could result in hostility / conflict in group.

In the end... That was precisely what happened. Two members became really very close and then they had a falling out. Group survived but it really was fairly unpleasant for the rest of us for a time. So I guess I understand either way. I suppose the notion is that it will be a bit safer to disclose in a safe environment. Not having contact with group members outside group is probably a fairly good way of keeping that safe environment.

One thing it might do... Is result in increased transference between group members. That might be one of the points behind no outside contact too. People usually develop some kind of transference relationship with their therapist... And in group people usually develop some kind of transference relationships with other group members too. Your therapist will get to observe some of those transferences between group members and that will give him more of an idea about each persons inter-personal style and the like. More grist for the individual mill...

Do you usually feel like you don't have a lot in common with other people?

(Just curious)

;-)

Sounds to me like a process group (with how the content of the discussion seems trivial but then the content of the discussion becomes the group interaction).

I've been trying to find an online process group... I know there used to be some... I'm not sure that there are any now (that I could join). I've found a couple that were associated with a graduate seminar in psychology - but you needed to be enrolled in the course to join and it was solely for the duration of the course. I was a member of a message board where one of the boards would sometimes focus on process issues (and that was really terrific)... But it would be great to get involved in a proper online process group methinks... I think this sounds great :-) I wonder if my t is a skills trainer for DBT? That could be good ;-) Not that DBT is really much of a process group though...

What a wonderful opportunity :-)

[sidony]

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alexandra_k said:
In the end... That was precisely what happened. Two members became really very close and then they had a falling out. Group survived but it really was fairly unpleasant for the rest of us for a time. So I guess I understand either way. I suppose the notion is that it will be a bit safer to disclose in a safe environment. Not having contact with group members outside group is probably a fairly good way of keeping that safe environment.

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Yeah that sounds stressful. There's enough conflict in group without something like that going on. I've been trying to steer clear of the conflict in group. But I already knew I avoid conflict. That's not news.

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Do you usually feel like you don't have a lot in common with other people?

(Just curious)

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Oh I don't know. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I have a lot in common with one of my co-workers. I'm seeing that I have a lot in common with people on this board. I guess I notice the similarities a lot less when I'm interacting face-to-face. I'm less distant in writing because there's much less vulnerability here. Nothing like being anonymous words on a screen....

The people in group have very different lifestyles from mine, but I imagine there might still be some similarities. Will see if I notice any.

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Sounds to me like a process group (with how the content of the discussion seems trivial but then the content of the discussion becomes the group interaction).

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Yeah that sounds like a good description of this group.

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What a wonderful opportunity :-)

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Sidony