[sidony]

I've been thinking a lot about boundaries lately. I never gave them much thought before, but I've realized that I'm terrified of crossing someone's boundaries. Therapy is a great example. I'd been going to therapy for a little over 3 months when my dad went into the hospital (he's since recovered). My therapist told me in one session that it was okay to call him if I was really worried about my dad. I remember being so surprised. I just assumed it was taboo to call outside of the therapy hour (except for rescheduling). And I didn't call even then. Just couldn't bring myself to do it though we talked a lot about my dad in session. Then much later on in one session he said "I find myself wanting to tell you that I'll be away the rest of this week, in case you needed to call, but then you never do call." And again I thought about how it doesn't occur to me to do that. I started wondering if he thought I didn't care about therapy or something since I never called between sessions.

Since then I've called maybe 3 times between sessions (when I wasn't just looking to reschedule an appointment). It takes me forever to get up the nerve. He's always called me back. This week I called him once again upset about my father (who now has some different problems that I won't go into here but which I mentioned in the health forum). When my therapist called back I told him I was looking for comfort. And he tried to talk to me some, but I got afraid that I shouldn't keep him on the phone so I ended the conversation very quickly (though I still appreciated that he'd called). I think we talked maybe 2 minutes. I know he would have talked longer.

I thought about this more afterward. I realized I'm terrified of somehow crossing people's boundaries. I mean, to me that would be so humiliating, to be told that I was somehow out of line & being inappropriate. And I'm now realizing that chances are, I'm not even coming close to anyone's boundaries. What would happen if I did? Once in a while I've even wondered on here if maybe I was posting too many times and somehow being overbearing. But I see lots of people posting often so I'll assume it's okay.

What happens if I cross someone's boundaries? Seriously I don't even know. If someone crosses a line with you, what do you do? Do you ostracize them? Or just say "back off"? Besides my feeling humiliated, what would really happen if I crossed boundaries? I'm even afraid to experiment, but I'm trying to pinpoint what it is that causes me to be so damned careful all the time.

This of course is more stuff I would never have thought about pre-therapy....

Sidony

We each have the right to set and enforce our own boundaries. When they are crossed we can say so. We can say what happened and that we don't like it and why. It can be very calm but direct.

For example, I lashed out at someone recently. Their response was an explanation of my behavior that was not acceptable to them and a statement "I don't like to be treated that way."

Or a personal space boundary would be addressed with "You are stading closer than I'm comfortable with. Please move back." .

It's like assertiveness: "When you....", "I feel...." "Don't do.." or "Do...".

I hope this helps.

The bottom line is you can't know what the other's boundaries are unless they say so. And they can't expect you to know if they don't tell you. So you can relax and not worry. If it happens the other person will let you know.

ECHOES

[sidony]

I like this answer. It didn't even occur to me that it's someone else's duty to tell me what their boundaries are. I guess I thought I was supposed to figure it all out. I should try to relax.

Ah assertiveness...... something I'm terribly bad at.....

Thanks,
Sidony

Assertiveness is a good therapy topic and a great place to practice. I had fun with it in a session with my fomer T.

Yes, you can relax.

Sid, we are so close on this topic that it's unbelievable. A couple of weeks ago, there was a discussion of boundaries in this forum, and I typed out a post. I am going to copy and paste it.

Here you go:

My T has never used the word boundaries. I don't think he has to because when it comes to me, forget about crossing the boundaries-- I don't even come within a 10 ft. radius of them, lol. In fact, I think the closest he has ever come to discussing something boundary related is to attempt to actually lessen the barrier that I place between us, i.e. telling me 42,396 times that I can call him any time. It's interesting because as a future T, I consciously respect his boundaries. However, in my unconscious I'm crossing boundaries all over the place. It's hard to cross boundaries with a psychoanalyst, lol. It's hard to understand that he can be so unattainable, yet so available at the same time. As I write this, I can see that I have yet to find a balance; have yet to find a gray area. I think a lot of this comes from the way I grew up-- my mom was always very, very lazy. She never did much of anything, but when I would ask her to do something, she would always (and still does) act like it is such a bother. She acts as if you are asking her to do the most complicated, enormous thing ever-- how could you possibly ask her to do such a thing?? It is so exasperating and hurtful, so eventually I just learned not to ask. Not to depend. When I 1st met my mother-in-law, I was always afraid to "bother" her. She always wanted to get together, talk, go shopping, even buy me things. I wasn't used to it. I would be so careful because I didn't want to "annoy" her by crossing any boundaries. Eventually I learned that it was okay to get close because she wanted me to. We now have a wonderful relationship, and I am closer to her than I ever was to my own mother. It's still weird for me though. I think this is what might be happening with my T. I don't want to "bother" him or step anywhere close to the boundaries. I am the type of person who likes to have boundaries set; not because for fear that I might cross them, but because it gives me more of a good reason not to. I almost wish he would tell me that I am not permitted to call at certain times-- that the message has to be x amount of minutes long, that he will only call back under certain conditions. The premise that I can call anytime and say whatever I want on the voicemail (he has even specified that if I need to curse him out on there, to go ahead), is too overwhelming for me.

[sunrise]

sidony, I think I'm very much like you with respect to boundaries. I'm always worried I'll step on other people's boundaries, so I give them a wide berth. Basically, I think I am just scared of getting rejected. As for setting my own boundaries, my T says I am terrible at it. I feel like I do set boundaries! But people walk all over them, and I don't know how to "enforce" them. I don't like to be an enforcer. So I just get hurt when my boundaries are crossed. I don't know how to make people respect them. The thing is, I've certainly tried the method ECHOES suggested, "when you do this, it makes me scared/mad/hurt, etc." But people just say "tough s**t" or "I don't care." What do you do then? My response has always been to leave the situation or relationship or just to take it but keep my hurt to myself. What else can you do? It hurts to keep setting your boundaries and have people ignore them. So I just give up and become the ever-hurt doormat. This is another thing I wish was in the how-to manual of life they should give you at birth: how to set boundaries and enforce them.

With regard to calling the therapist between sessions, I've always assumed you shouldn't do it except for matters regarding canceling or rescheduling the appointment. With my first counselor, I called quite a bit to cancel my appointments (I was a very unreliable client), but that was it. With my current T, I have never canceled a session and have called only once for other reasons--to tell him how freaked out I was about our most recent session and to reassure him he didn't need to take any action (I had become worried he would do something drastic). I have also called once (a few days ago on Wednesday) to request a session. He never returned that call, so this is just confirmation to me that I have been too needy and crossed his boundaries--that is the message his silence is sending to me. When I'm faced with that rejection, I feel like I will never call again. It's too painful to be rejected like that. Sigh. Boundaries!

[sidony]

Hey guys!

(Pinksoil, thanks for pasting that in -- I hate I missed that discussion. I'm on here fairly often but I still miss some when I'm busy at work or distracted by something.)

Yeah my therapist has never mentioned boundaries to me either. He once asked me "do you get that you're not a burden to me?" I don't know if I did then, but I'm realizing it a lot more now. Last week he was a few minutes late to the session, and I assured him it was all right. He was like "Why are you so careful to reassure me when I'm the one who has wronged you?" I guess I don't set any boundaries. Sunrise, I don't know what I'd do if I did set some and people refused to respect them. Probably walk away.

I guess my little 2-minute phone conversation with my therapist is me pushing toward boundaries. I think he probably wants me to. Although I would be in total misery if I accidentally went too far. Hm, I wonder if I'd get any warning in advance of actually crossing a line....

Sidony

[MissCharlotte]

Oh God, this is such a difficult topic. My T has never used the word boundaries. He has told me to call if I need him and I have. I obsess for hours before making the call, usually. I don't call often, but I do if I feel distressed enough and can't work it through on my own. I believe that's the nature of the therapeutic relationship. I am not good at boundaries. There were none in my family growing up. I am not good at drawing boundaries for myself either and T has pointed out that I have let people usurp me. It's one of my touch-points! I would just die if I inadvertently crossed a boundary and someone told me to back off, so I don't push too hard in relationships. Not a good thing.

hi sunny,

The last part of that you don't mention that you do and that is to define what you want, how you DO want to be treated. (the Don't or Do: Don't raise your voice to me. Don't criticize me in front of the kids. Do let me know when you will be late getting home. etc)

If at that point they still say they don't care, either directly or indirectly, then it is up to you what to do. You can reiterate what you've said, adding that they don't have to care, but you do and this is what you need to have a relationship with them. Walking away is okay (but not in place of speaking up). Why would we want a relationship with someone who can't cherish us? Within our boundaries are the people who truly care about us.

I don't have a good handle on it because I don't know for sure what my boundaries are. I have a problem with feeling deserving, with being obedient, with standing up for myself. I also tend to give up and walk away instead of speaking up.

I notice that those who can do this, who know what their boundaries are and can be direct and state how they expect to be treated, are those who know themselves well and who seem very secure to me. I want that too.

[lauren_helene]

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sunrise said:

I have also called once (a few days ago on Wednesday) to request a session. He never returned that call, so this is just confirmation to me that I have been too needy and crossed his boundaries--that is the message his silence is sending to me. When I'm faced with that rejection, I feel like I will never call again. It's too painful to be rejected like that. Sigh. Boundaries!

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Oh god I hope not Sunny. You know I did the very same thing you did called this pastweek to see if he was still booked. And like you, never heard back.

If I find out he did this on purpose...I just might quit. I've got quite enough people in my life who are not there for me. I don't want to add him to the list...

I keep thinking he's away or something. I called twice and no one picked up the phone either time which is very unusal...it is mother's day weekend so maybe he traveled somewhere...

[sidony]

So in session today, I told him that my calling him was my way of testing boundaries and that it was hard for me. He said "I know -- that's why I like it."

I love my therapist.

Sidony

[lauren_helene]

That is great Sid. He really knows what you need!

[Perna]

I don't think boundaries are some mysterious, invisible concept; they're mostly just common sense and "politeness" of sorts. Do unto others, etc. . . will generally cover boundaries. People who are boundary crossers are those NOT paying attention or worrying about boundaries and who is "where."

If you cross another person's boundaries, they're in charge of telling you; you can't know where "their" boundaries are! No two people have the same boundaries/rules/worries. It's a little bit, as I imagine it, like with "personal space" -- you know how you feel when people are "near" you, how close you like someone to be or if you let people touch you or not, on the arm, shoulder, etc. Some people are less comfortable with touch than other people; boundaries are like that. But I don't "worry" a whole lot about crossing the other guy's boundaries because I expect there will be conversation and they'll let me know (or I'll sense) if I'm too close, over their lines, etc. It's a conversation/give-and-take but it's the people who are not paying attention, don't seem to "care" or think they have special priviledges because they've known you a long time or are your mother/husband or something :-) No one has special priviledges to you other than those YOU give special priviledges to! Likewise, the reverse is true.

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sidony said:
So in session today, I told him that my calling him was my way of testing boundaries and that it was hard for me. He said "I know -- that's why I like it."

I love my therapist.

Sidony

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oooooh, me too.

that's it! i wanna break some boundaries!

[lauren_helene]

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pinksoil said:
that's it! i wanna break some boundaries!

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You're not the only one my dear! I see boundaries as a challenge when it comes to my T or other men in my life. In my mind, I'm going to get through to my T...someday I hope...

[sidony]

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pinksoil said:
that's it! i wanna break some boundaries!

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You called yours too! I saw it in the other thread!

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I talked quite a bit about boundaries in session and it made for a really helpful session. I like all the descriptions you guys have shared about how you think on this topic.

I've been trying way too hard for too long not to accidentally step on someone. I'm starting to see that that's a barrier to my being close to people. Gotta work on it....

Sidony

[MissCharlotte]

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We now have a wonderful relationship, and I am closer to her than I ever was to my own mother.

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Pink,
This is exactly how I felt about my mother-in-law who I miss now more than I miss my own Mom. You are lucky to have that relationship.

More thoughts on boundaries: They keep popping up because I construct them, where they don't exist...For example, T will say, "Why don't you tell her>>>>>>" and i will say, " I can't." The list goes on and on......I need less boundaries, not more.

[SecretGarden]

Yes I would like to blow my boundaries to smithereens.... what empowerment.... but after that wore off.... then what would keep me standing?