[ScarletPimpernel]

Sorry for another post.

So I now have a problem with my group T Last week we were going over coping skills. He started with the ones for SI. He asked me if I use them because I'm the only one who SI's in the group. First one was squeezing ice. I told him that doesn't work for me. Then he asked about drawing on myself with a red marker. I said I never tried it and don't want to. He asked about snapping a rubber back. I said it doesn't work. He ask about screaming into a pillow. I said I'm not the screaming type and we have thin walls. Then he tells me I'm being resistant?!?! Because I don't use those 4 coping skills? And it was embarrassing because he said it in front of the group. I told him I do have coping skills. He was like "what?" I listed out a bunch: crying, sleeping, painting, shower, playing with my dogs, etc.

But I'm still hurt. The rest of the session I spent holding back tears and trying to not run out the door. So I emailed him telling him he hurt me and embarrassed me. I told him I won't return to group unless their was a resolution: if I misinterpreted his meaning of "resistance" then he needs to clarify, or if I didn't misinterpret then he needs to apologize. I emailed him 3 days ago, but haven't heard back from him. My T told me to call him because maybe he doesn't want to respond via email. She also suggested a one on one with him so he can learn what upsets me and also to try to resolve this.

I just have a feeling with this lack of reply that he doesn't want me to be in the group anymore. I think I ruined the "energy" of the group.

Would being called resistant bother you?

[Leah123]

It would bother me. I might feel defensive and angry, and hope he could find a more helpful way to communicate next time. I would consider though that in a therapy group, it's just part of the process to receive (and give) feedback in front of the group. And then maybe I would consider there was likely some truth to it and try to work that out going forward, because I think often the comments that hurt the most have a valuable lesson in them. They show us areas where we're really sensitive and might have a growth opportunity.

Sometimes when my therapist has made powerful suggestions like that and tried to help me consider my options, I have reacted, but come to see the value in her perspective. It sounds like he was just iterating some of the key, well known DBT techniques, so he may have expected you to be open to them as they are part of the traditional DBT playbook and your therapy group is a DBT one if I remember right? I hope he gets back to you and you two can come to peace on this subject and find the techniques that will work best for you. It's one thing to say you're resisting techniques that might help you, but then the real work is to figure out why and what to do about it.

Yes it would bother me, and I don't think it's fair if him to call you resistant in front of the group. I don't think his reply means he doesn't want you in the group, more likely he doesn't know how to respond to being called out on his error. He really should learn from this, and in terms of his relationship with you and the group dynamics, I hope you can have an honest conversation when you see him.

[NowhereUSA]

You know my DBT group therapists and my T don't recommend any of those. They think it reinforces the pattern instead of actually changing patterns.

Instead they encourage urge surfing, distraction, and utilization of the distress tolerance skills. I dealt with SI and just by practicing the standard skills over and over again my urges just... faded. I mean, the thoughts come into my head but they don't stick and I don't really feel like indulging. Like, I'd rather go do something else (that is, a skill). It's hard to explain. :-/

[atisketatasket]

If in teaching you learn never to humiliate a student in front of a class, or get anywhere near the appearance of that, that goes doubly true for a group therapist.

As for posting, post away - people don't have to read it, do they?

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[NowhereUSA]

Also, yes. Being called resistant would piss me off. Sounds like he could take a few lessons from the DBT manual...

[DelusionsDaily]

I think mental health professionals resort to the patient as resistant when what they know as being the way to deal with something isn't for the patient for whatever the reason. Just a way to defer from finding other ways to deal with the issue in a way that works for the patient. Sorry dont think very high of most MH professionals. However, love mine!

[SkyscraperMeow]

I think you're pretty brave for attending a group at all. I can't imagine a worse place to deal with any serious issue than in a circle of strangers. (I know some people find groups very effective, I just think they also make one very vulnerable.)

I'm assuming that part of the DBT group dynamic isn't supposed to be public shaming. Calling you resistant would seem to fit in that category to me. Especially when you're not resisting all coping skills, just the ones that are in the manual.

It seems to me that those 'skills' are all ways of creating or simulating pain without actually harming oneself. There are plenty of ways to do that if that's what works. Maybe that's what his problem was, that your chosen coping skills don't involve sufficient simulation of pain and therefore don't act to effectively replace the actual harm. In some odd way, his problem could maybe somehow seem to be that your coping skills aren't painful enough?

[NowhereUSA]

Originally Posted by SkyscraperMeow

I think you're pretty brave for attending a group at all. I can't imagine a worse place to deal with any serious issue than in a circle of strangers. (I know some people find groups very effective, I just think they also make one very vulnerable.)

I'm assuming that part of the DBT group dynamic isn't supposed to be public shaming. Calling you resistant would seem to fit in that category to me. Especially when you're not resisting all coping skills, just the ones that are in the manual.

It seems to me that those 'skills' are all ways of creating or simulating pain without actually harming oneself. There are plenty of ways to do that if that's what works. Maybe that's what his problem was, that your chosen coping skills don't involve sufficient simulation of pain and therefore don't act to effectively replace the actual harm. In some odd way, his problem could maybe somehow seem to be that your coping skills aren't painful enough?

In DBT it's supposed to be entirely skills based and there shouldn't even be explicit talk about SI or suicidal thoughts or any triggering behaviors. They're referred to as "target behaviors" and they get brought up in the context of having practiced skills. I guess I imagined this conversation happened one on one?? If he had this conversation in front of the group... I sure as hell wouldn't be back.

[SkyscraperMeow]

Originally Posted by NowhereUSA

In DBT it's supposed to be entirely skills based and there shouldn't even be explicit talk about SI or suicidal thoughts or any triggering behaviors. They're referred to as "target behaviors" and they get brought up in the context of having practiced skills. I guess I imagined this conversation happened one on one?? If he had this conversation in front of the group... I sure as hell wouldn't be back.

I admittedly know very little about DBT. I assumed from the OP that he said all this in front of other people. It doesn't sound like Scarlet has one on one time, but I could be misunderstanding all this. If it did happen publicly, that seems very shame-y and counterproductive.

[NowhereUSA]

Originally Posted by SkyscraperMeow

I admittedly know very little about DBT. I assumed from the OP that he said all this in front of other people. It doesn't sound like Scarlet has one on one time, but I could be misunderstanding all this. If it did happen publicly, that seems very shame-y and counterproductive.

Oh I agree. I was basing my response on what I know about how DBT is supposed to be run and my assumptions there. :-/

I really hope it didn't happen publicly. DBT groups are different from traditional therapy groups. Therapy really happens one-on-one and then there's a skills group and the skills group is more focused on skills practiced and teaching new skills, and reinforcing the skills. All the other "stuff" like personal target behaviors are for individual therapy (according to the rules of DBT group - you're not supposed to be in group if you aren't being seen one on one).

[ScarletPimpernel]

Well, one, I don’t think he is trained in DBT. His is just following a workbook: The Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills Workbook.

I don'tunderstand why he made a big deal out of those skills. I'm the only member who SI's. And I haven't done it in around 5 months. Plus my Latuda reduces how often I get SI and SUI thoughts by like 90%. I'm the safest I've been in a long time.

He did say this in front of the other members. Also, I have not seen him one-on-one yet. I wanted to get my T's permission first because her rules state that I can't have dual therapists. She just gave me permission today to see him this one time individually and, in the future, only if a problem arises again.

Yes those skills are the "textbook" skills for mimicking SI, but in a safer way. I do not find any of those type of skills useful. Instead, I use a lot of distraction skills (cleaning, painting, playing with dogs) or mindfulness skills (changinga nd be aware of my environment: candles/aromatherapy, music, taste, lighting, temperature).

My house is even setup to reduce anxiety. I tend to keep the house really cold because it decreases the body's desire to over-react. My color scheme are light blues and greens to keep calm. My bed and couch are plush and have blankets to curl up in. I either have the ac or white noise machine on to drown out harsh sounds. And I keep low lighting in the house.

[NowhereUSA]

He's just following the manual?! He's not... *twitches*

*twitches harder*

*falls on the floor twitching*

My brain is now seriously broken. I mean, yeah my T has the manual and whatnot but he's part of a DBT group of therapists and they do on-going training. This is their *thing* that's the only therapy they do!

I'm being overdramatic to inject a little humor but I'm really frustrated for you. This guy (disgusted noise). I think what you are doing with your mindfulness and distraction are fantastic! They really are perfect. What's up with this guy messing with that and shaming you which is NOT effective or skillful?!

Ugh. (Disgusted noise).

You just keep being awesome in the face of not-awesomeness because you're being awesome.

[SkyscraperMeow]

It sounds like I'm about as qualified to run a DBT group as this guy is. My DBT group would have cake and streamers and, well, I may be describing a birthday party, but at least at a birthday party nobody gets labelled resistant because they don't want to pretend to harm themselves. Very odd theme on PC at the moment. Imaginary hugs, make believe self-harm. Soon we'll just visualise our own therapists and be done with it.

I hope you get a good result Scarlet, I'm sorry you had to experience that. Did your T provide some feedback on what he did? I can't imagine her being well pleased with that.

[ScarletPimpernel]

T didn't provide much feedback. She did say my email probably made him defensive. I guess I can be harsh? She said I need to practice my "I feel..." statements again.

She told me to call him and leave him a msg because maybe he's uncomfortable with responding via email. And she said it would be inappropriate to discuss this in group, but would be more appropriate in an individual session. She also thinks I need an individual session with him so he can get to know me better. She said that a session would help him see I'm not resistant.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Originally Posted by NowhereUSA

He's just following the manual?! He's not... *twitches*

*twitches harder*

*falls on the floor twitching*

My brain is now seriously broken. I mean, yeah my T has the manual and whatnot but he's part of a DBT group of therapists and they do on-going training. This is their *thing* that's the only therapy they do!

I'm being overdramatic to inject a little humor but I'm really frustrated for you. This guy (disgusted noise). I think what you are doing with your mindfulness and distraction are fantastic! They really are perfect. What's up with this guy messing with that and shaming you which is NOT effective or skillful?!

Ugh. (Disgusted noise).

You just keep being awesome in the face of not-awesomeness because you're being awesome.

LOL. I know. You're dying in disbelief. You might pass out with what I'm about to say... His group was originally a BP group. He changed it to DBT to get more members. Technically, it's a process group that incorporates DBT skills.

There aren't many real DBT groups in my area, and they're way too expensive for me atm. I guess I'm getting my money's worth, huh?

I'm just really bothered that he hasn't responded. He's a hippy type, so I wonder if I've ruined his "vibe". I was actually afraid I would when he talked about energies during my first session. I will know he's a wuss if he doesn't have the "balls" to confront me. I do have BPD...but I'm high functioning. If he can't handle me, how is he going to handle someone who's low functioning?

[msxyz]

I'd call this pejorative labeling a clear anti dbt tactic according to the manual. Resistant only means you're not adequately responding to what they're doing so instead of feeling bad about themselves and their competency they shift the blame over to the client.

[JaneTennison1]

So there are 2 parts to this. The first is that bpd can make you resistant to new ideas and change. So it's good to consider other plans in your own time.

However 2 point is this guy is way overstepping. Client blaming seems to happen when therapists don't like to shown as wrong. It's dumb and it's shaming. No time for someone who shames someone for not doing as their told and having their own coping techniques.

Oh ack. I agree with NowhereUSA. There is so much wrong with this.

I know there are a lot of "Sort of / Kind of DBT" groups out there...but honestly, if they aren't doing DBT, then they shouldn't be selling themselves as DBT.

I've got a million thoughts on this....but, just ack.

As an aside, in my city many of the DBT groups offer a reduced rate for folks in need. You might think about approaching one of the groups that do "real" DBT and ask if this is something they offer.

[Cinnamon_Stick]

Yes it would bother me and I don't think its right he said that in-front of the group. I think a one on one session is a good idea so you can hopefully work this out so this sort of thing doesn't happen again. I hope you can resolve this soon.

[ScarletPimpernel]

So he finally contacted me. He apologized for saying I was resistant. He said he didn't realize until after he said that that I have a lot of good coping skills. He told me that he also realized it really upset me and he tried to give me time to address it. I rejected it because I felt like I was being put on the spot and was afraid of having a break down. But he said I could address any of my issues in group, even issues with him. He said it would allow the other members to help me out. Oh, and he apologized for not getting back to me sooner.

He still shouldn't have said I was resistant.

So we have a one on one scheduled for Tuesday. He said it would be a good time to learn about boundaries (mine, his, the groups), to talk a little more about what happened this week, and to get to know each other a little better.

I'm nervous though about the one on one. I'm sure nothing will happen, but I haven't been alone in a room with a man, closed doors, for 15 years...besides my fiance of course. My anxiety is going to be high. It's during the afternoon at least. And I think the other offices will have people in them at that time. Group goes from 6-8pm so the building is empty when we leave. And he is married with 2 kids. Plus he knows I don't want to be touched. I just need to tell myself that everything is going to be okay.

[stopdog]

I think the shaming and tendency to label is not conducive to trust or change

[Gavinandnikki]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

Sorry for another post.

So I now have a problem with my group T Last week we were going over coping skills. He started with the ones for SI. He asked me if I use them because I'm the only one who SI's in the group. First one was squeezing ice. I told him that doesn't work for me. Then he asked about drawing on myself with a red marker. I said I never tried it and don't want to. He asked about snapping a rubber back. I said it doesn't work. He ask about screaming into a pillow. I said I'm not the screaming type and we have thin walls. Then he tells me I'm being resistant?!?! Because I don't use those 4 coping skills? And it was embarrassing because he said it in front of the group. I told him I do have coping skills. He was like "what?" I listed out a bunch: crying, sleeping, painting, shower, playing with my dogs, etc.

But I'm still hurt. The rest of the session I spent holding back tears and trying to not run out the door. So I emailed him telling him he hurt me and embarrassed me. I told him I won't return to group unless their was a resolution: if I misinterpreted his meaning of "resistance" then he needs to clarify, or if I didn't misinterpret then he needs to apologize. I emailed him 3 days ago, but haven't heard back from him. My T told me to call him because maybe he doesn't want to respond via email. She also suggested a one on one with him so he can learn what upsets me and also to try to resolve this.

I just have a feeling with this lack of reply that he doesn't want me to be in the group anymore. I think I ruined the "energy" of the group.

Would being called resistant bother you?

Yes, being called resistant would bother me.

However, I know that one of your goals of therapy is to figure out how to and then work through complex, emotional and sometimes conflictional interpersonal relationships.

This would be a event to work very hard at not getting angry/ defensive or shut down on.

My opinion only. Not right or wrong, just a thought.

[Gavinandnikki]

Just saw your update.

You can do this, you are way stronger than you give yourself credit for.

[divine1966]

I think it would be much more productive if he asked what works for you and what do you do for coping skills rather than suggesting you are resisting his ideas! I would feel bad too! This was just wrong!

Just saw your update and am glad he apologized. Be strong

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