Problems with group T

First, good news: my T and I have had no conflicts for like 3 months. We are getting along so well. Also, I quit smoking for a couple weeks now. Even with all my anxiety, I still haven't smoked!

And now to group therapy. I have no issues with the DBT. I'm having issues with the people. I'm the youngest by like 20 years. It's nice to hear from older people because they've tend to have more wisdom? Anyways. They treat me as if I'm younger, as if I was their child. 2 weeks ago I actually found some courage to speak up. I told the group that I felt like they were minimizing my experiences and my feelings. They all apologized...except for the group T...

Now for group T. I have a deep fear of men. I do my absolute best to never be alone with a guy unless he's family. All my doctors: female. When in the ER, I ask for a female nurse and my fiance has been there with me every time (because most ER doctors are male). Off track again... So I have already judged my group T just because he's male. I have also judged him for his appearance. He's tall and skinny. He looks like a cross btwn a hippy and a nerd. But the part that bothers me is his beard. It makes him look so creepy to me. It's like he's hiding behind a mask. And he's always scratching it. And I'm also judging him because he's an intern. He seems to have this ideal view of the mental health system. He says that the homeless rate in our county is low and there's no people out on a corner begging for money. B.S.! I have been homeless! I have lived with people who were in the system. I've watched people who have no home being kicked to the street with no resources. And just a few months ago there was a young pregnant girl on the corner begging. I could go on, but I think I covered the jist of it.

Well, 2 weeks ago, my group T and I had another disagreement about our counties resources. This session is also where I felt like I was being minimized. The women apologized and explained their intentions. But not T. He pulls out a book written by a concentration camp survivor. It made me feel even more minimized. How can what I've gone through compare to what those people have gone through? It can't. My life is a pretty good life. Many people would be happy with my life/resources. But still I suffer. Does my suffering have no meaning? Am I just a pathetic excuse of a life? The suffering feels real to me.

I talked to my individual T about my issues with group. I told her that I feel like quitting the group. She told me to need to meet with him, face-to-face and try to resolve this. So I wrote group T:
His response:
His response felt so cold. He wants me to use my voice? Umm that's why I was emailing him!?!? Instead of reacting, I waited for my next session with individual T to get help processing this. She agreed that the group T's response was such a "therapist" response. She said she could see how I interpreted the way I did. She said he doesn't know me the same way she knows me. I told her that I feel like he's judging me based on the Borderline. She told me that since he is an intern, he is open to feedback and that I should teach him. We compared it to me teaching her how to be a supportive T for me. So she said email him back and simply agree to a time to meet with him; nothing else. So I did. And we will meet Tuesday.

Normally, I wouldn't put up with this ****. But group is overall good for me. My T said to try and just put up with group T. Just focus on the members. If things get so bad that I can't stand to be in his presence then leave the group. My T is worried for me because I already don't have much support, and not only do I risk losing the group, I'm also at risk for seeing my mom every Wednesday (because of money issues). I know T is right. I'm kind of in a balanced state right now. I have stressors, but am coping. I'm not smoking, I'm not cutting. My diet and exercise... eh. Let's not talk about that And I'm doing fairly well atm with the loss of ex-T (it's now been almost 9 months). I don't really want to lose a huge portion of my support right now.

My T and I decided that I should write a letter to group T and read it to him next visit. The letter will keep me on track and hopefully keep my emotions to a minimum. I'm scared though. I'm scared to be alone in a room with him again. I'm scared he's going to pull off "I never said that" or "Did I say those exact words to you?" Or worse...."and how does that make you feel?" I hate when Ts use therapy talk.

I think its a great idea to go prepared to your meeting with the group T. It sounds like you are facing your fears and really being courageous in my opinion. You have to advocate for yourself because no one else will. Let us know how you're meeting goes and best of luck!

My T has said that one doesn't need to like a T in order to do effective therapy. Putting that in context, he's also said a lot of his job is trying to get people to see how much agency they have in themselves.

I think taking your T's advice and dealing with group T shows a great deal of maturity and progress. It's not easy to deal with people who have been invalidating whether intended or not. Good luck with the meeting. You can do it. Keep using your voice.

I don't know. What bothers me most about what you've said here isn't actually the group T. Because the group T is just doing his thing and being a therapist. (Which is what therapists tend to do.)

But your personal therapist apparently has to give permission for you to interact with your group T one on one (weird) and she's telling you that you're not 'allowed' to quit without performing X action first.

Maybe you like that, and maybe that's even what you need. I don't know.

It does sound like your therapist is acting like a surrogate decision making machine though, and I think that's really dangerous. If you tell your T you don't want to keep going to group therapy, she's supposed to help you explore your feelings around that and come to a decision. She's not supposed to tell you that you can only do so if you meet a certain requirement.

Sounds like you're being lured into another hyper dependent situation. And what happens when this therapist inevitably has a human moment and fails you? (She definitely will, because humans are fallible, and can't help that.)

What happens if/when you suddenly need to make decisions about group therapy, interactions with other professionals, etc, on your own?

It might feel good to be told what to do and how to do it, but is that truly the point of therapy?

I think a therapist who annoys one and challenges one is better than one who does your thinking for you. It wouldn't surprise me at all if your group T actually pushes you to grow more by essentially requiring you to meet him at his level as an independent, strong thinker, rather than someone who has to be coddled re: minimized feelings.

I don't know. There's a lot of fine lines and context etc, missing here, so I could be wildly off-base. But I actually think your group T was really clear. He told you to come back and keep challenging him and yourself, and that the choice to come back or not was yours to make.

Whereas your T is relieving you of the burden of choice, and in doing so, I believe, absolving you of some adult responsibility.

Or maybe indiviual t is pushing the op into actually having a meeting because he might actually be a decent person.
All the best for the meeting, reading about it made my insides turn to jelly, I understand the fear of being alone with a guy in a room. His email didn't sound cold. It was simply offering you times to meet which is encouraging.

It is my decision to quit or stay. My T doesn't want me running away from my problems. She wants me to face them...literally...via a face to face meeting. How is it a bad thing to be encouraged to deal with my issues?

It sounds to me like DBT is working for you - which is FANTASTIC! I have done full on DBT (completed my two cycles) and I also experienced a lot of positive things from it - including the elimination of a number of maladaptive coping mechanisms.

But, while the group is supposed to be a skills group, I think it's critical that everyone there feel heard and validated.

Instead of a letter, have you considered writing out a DEARMAN explaining what you are experiencing and (this is important), what you want from the group that you are not getting? Then, instead of a one-on-one, reading your DEARMAN during the homework part of the group?

(((Scarlet)))
It seems to be a basic rule of therapists not to apologize. The more experienced ones will often reject that rule on a case by case basis - like a good T should, people do not come out of a cookie cutter machine.
However, as you say, your group T is an intern and under supervision. He's playing by the book, in part because he's still learning and in part because he could get into trouble if he doesn't.
I would try not to take it too personally. It is a very good idea to meet with him, even if you don't get the outcome you desire. You are learning to face your fears head on and how to deal with conflict and possibly unresolvable differences of opinion

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There is no hw portion part of group. It's a modified group. It was originally a bipolar process group. Then he changed it to a DBT process group. In the new year he's restructuring the group to be more in line with a "real"? group. And he's finally reading Linehan's manuals.

I could still do DEARMAN. I could read it to group and/or group T. I'd have to go look it up though.

My T wants me to do a one on one to teach both myself and group T. My T doesn't think group T has had much experience with BPD. He does individual and group therapy, he works at a college as a T, and he works at the county's main mental health hospital. None of those things would give him constant access to an individual with BPD except individual and group therapy. But in group, I'm the only one with BPD... So I'm probably his first high functioning BPD client.

In my experience, Ts do apologize. Group T has apologized in the past (when he said in group that I'm being resistant). And it wasn't "I'm sorry you feel this way" bs apology. Those apologies are a waste of air.

But having this one on one meeting will hopefully benefit both of us. At the very least, it forces me to face my fears just as you mentioned. And hopefully it gets resolved enough that I will want to remain in group.

i have done DBT groups twice. Both times they had 2 therapists running them. Actually, one male and one female, and it created a better dynamic. I find it a bit weird this guy is running the group alone, especially as an intern.

Don't read into it. Schedule a one to one.

I have scheduled a one on one for tomorrow

Good luck. Dare to be courageous.

I hope it goes well. Also, great progress that you quit smoking.

Saw group T. It went okay. He didn't apologize, but he did say he would work on less robotic responses. He said he still wants me in group. We talked about how the group will be more structured in the new year. We talked about general things: how's it going with current T, how am I coping with ex-T, etc. We talked about one of the members who is kinda like a mother-figure to me. We talked about BPD. We talked about a lot of different things.

There is one concern I have with group T, that he wants to do more individual sessions with me. One, I just can't afford it. Current T costs $100, group $30, individual with group T is $70. And (I know you all hate this), my T put in her rules that we're not allowed multiple individual Ts. So I ask her (because I choose to follow her rules) if/when I can have individual sessions with group T. And on top of that, I kind of feel like group T is in it for the money.

So since everything is smoothed over at least, I'll be going to group tonight.

I don't agree with this at all. But that's something for each patient to decide for herself.

Well, to be fair, my T was saying it to me and I'm the kind of person who doesn't have to like someone personally to work with them. I just need to respect them professionally. For me the two don't necessarily go hand in hand. I have people that I like that I wouldn't trust alone with a penny (but hey, they're hilarious). I have people that I wouldn't want to have lunch with but I respect them as experts in their field.

Granted, I'll say that therapy is in some weird middle ground but I haven't decided yet if a synergistic relationship is good or not.

And, I'll add, he's a skills based T. At the end of the day it's about implementing skills and I kinda think anyone with decent training who doesn't actively annoy me could sit in the chair and do that.

So, yeah, I mean, it's subjective but also food for thought at the same time. Sometimes we lock ourselves into thinking things have to be a certain way and mixing it up a bit can help us.

I know that through the program my T is in, since they're primarily skills based, they don't usually intend to be long term therapists. I'm one of my T's few long term clients. Many of his clients come on for six months to a year (maybe a little more) and then they're done working with him. During that time they might see their regular T co-currently or return once DBT is finished. That being said, it's a full-on DBT program, the pride and joy of the clinic. My guess in this situation is that it creates consistency for the client since the DBT Ts all run groups and meet regularly together for consult. So everyone is on the same page and can provide effective, cohesive treatment for those within the program.

The cost would be daunting though and since it's modified, I'd be more hesitant personally.

What makes you think he's in it for the money?

What are his reasons for proposing this?

Idk. He just seems too happy to want me to do individual. He knows I can't see my T if I see an additional T. And he has always encouraged my relationship with my T. But he mentions individual almost every other session. Why does he want that? He says he wants to "check-in". And he's also encouraging others to do individual with him. So it seems like he's just trying to fill out his schedule.

To stay up-to-date on my issues. Giving me a chance to be more open. Ummm. Idk. I see individual as a way to deal with conflict with him or members in the group.

He wants you to see him for individual and group? And you would stop seeing regular T?

Just say thanks for the offer, but it isn't financially possible and you'd prefer to keep your individual therapy with your current T. End of discussion. It's an offer and suggestion, not a requirement.

I guess? Every time he brings it up, I remind him of my Ts policy. I'm keeping my T. Group is just extra support. I have no attachment to him or the members. I like them. Enjoy my time with them. But it will never be a higher priority than individual therapy.