Client abandonment scenario

As the kid with the big glasses used to say in that 90's show, "Did i do that?" Are these the new Trump's Rules of Order? Say something horrible, but dont REALLY say the other person did it, and just let it hang there? Thanks, but count me out of that game.

I don't understand what this means. It is okay that I don't, but I don't and I usually don't, so it is not all that unusual. I was not playing a game, I was responding as were you - just taking different stances on it. And I was not referring to you.

It does not work the same way for everyone nor does everyone want or need the same thing. If you have found a way that you find useful, then great. But that everyone does not see it your way does not make everyone else wrong either. Also, not everyone wants or needs advice from other posters and not all advice is going to be followed. It is okay to have different ideas. It probably doesn't go as well if it is upsetting when one's advice is not useful to all - it may be useful to someone - just not everyone.

Not sure where you are getting those numbers. How could such things possibly be quantified?

My main point with this thread is venting about the insanity of vulnerable people being subjected to a retraumatizing attachment/abandonment experience in, of all things, therapy. And to ask rhetorically what this says about the system and whether it can be considered legit if this is happening with regularity.

I don't dispute attachment theory nor that clients can and do form significant attachment to Ts that echoes early attachment relationships. My interest is in just what the hell Ts are doing with this allegedly healthy attachment.

Common factors is outcome based research. Of course people can't be reduced to numbers, but studies have to quantify things to be published. Here is one excerpt, just from the internet, about the numbers. I've read more articles about it though.

In 1992, Michael J. Lambert summarized psychotherapy outcome research and grouped the factors of successful therapy into four areas, ordered by hypothesized percent of change in clients as a function of therapeutic factors: first, extratherapeutic change (40%), those factors that are qualities of the client or qualities of his or her environment and that aid in recovery regardless of his or her participation in therapy; second, common factors (30%) that are found in a variety of therapy approaches, such as empathy and the therapeutic relationship; third, expectancy (15%), the portion of improvement that results from the client's expectation of help or belief in the rationale or effectiveness of therapy; fourth, techniques (15%), those factors unique to specific therapies and tailored to treatment of specific problems.

I do realize that this is not the main focus of the thread and have tried to suggest so, to take it up more privately.

If we had healthy attachment, we would probably not be in therapy with that focus. T's don't have healthy attachment either; I never said they did. What I said is attachment is proven, part of all types of therapy, can't be ignored.

I already said that there is an earned secure attachment that results from the relationship with the T. The T doesn't have to have a healthy attachment to do the work. In fact, at least in what I've seen and done, Ts tend to bond with clients who match their own attachment styles.

Mine is fearful avoidant as I am. We both admit that openly, work with it, and have at least most times earned secure. But attachment is not the same across the board. You could have any number of attachment styles with different people in your life and at different times.

While there are some universals, such as common factors and attachment, there are not absolutes in anything. Things depend on the situation, the people involved, the time, the history, and on and on and on....

I hear you naia, and you have a lot of good things to say. But for me, hearing "the research shows" followed by "so x is true" is very off-putting, not as much when stated by laypeople such as yourself, but especially when stated by a professional/expert. The research also shows that CBT cures depression, so why aren't we all doing CBT therapy? In fact, the harmful 12 session CBT allowance so many in the UK are restricted to is based on what "the research shows". I think research that is replicated time and time again ultimately becomes higher-level theory, but even then they are not really absolutes...

I'm all for attachment therapy and its application in therapy, and I got really attached to some of my therapists and benefitted from it in many ways, but applying those theories in clinical practice is very much of an art. I also think that even when applied effectively, or perhaps by the 'good enough therapist', there are still huge diminishing returns. It helps a lot at first, but once you ("you" being any potential person) now understand or are in touch with your emotions, learn how to truly be yourself, and the positive impact on relationships outside of therapy, the subsequent gains for some can be quite small. Particularly those with depression. On this and other PTSD or mental health forums, there are many who have been in these therapies for years, and even though it may help, so many are still are not well, not living their life fully, or not achieving anything close to self-actualization.

As far as psychology research goes, we can discuss representative populations, blinding studies, reliability, validity, etc., but I really think what it boils down to is that maybe we should not give too much "power" to research. Reality does not conform to research outcomes, especially since psychology is not a hard science.

This experience easily illustrates why the research claims are off putting to me. I had severe insomnia for a years. But in the past 2 years, it got much worse. I have been suffering so badly, that it felt like I had a protracted version of the rare disease called fatal familial insomnia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia, where people die a torturous and horrible death after not sleeping for months.

So I was only getting 3-4 hours of sleep a night, and it was totally non-refreshing sleep, so I sought out a sleep aid. My PCP referred me to a sleep doctor, so I had to wait 2 months to get treatment options. After waiting 2 months, the entire appointment that cost $350+ consisted of the MD trying to persuade me to do CBT therapy. CBT therapy is proven by the research to be the most effective treatment for insomnia. I argued with this man the entire appointment that CBT is not the right treatment for me. Finally as I was leaving, he said, "my wife has the same problem as you and she is the same way, she will not do CBT for insomnia".

So after another month or so of torturous fatigue waiting for follow up from my PCP, I did my own research and ended up trying trazadone, then nortriptlyine, which truly ended up being a lifesaver for me. Not a permanent solution, or the single solution, but my body was literally breaking down from lack of sleep and chronic fatigue. After doing this research, I was shocked that this doctor knew nothing about the fragmented and non-refreshing sleep fibromyalgia suffers go through and he--a sleep doctor--did not know the appropriate treatments! So even though the research shows CBT is the treatment for insomnia, I, as well as perhaps millions of fibroymalgia suffers, can not cause my brain to produce delta waves/enter delta wave sleep. Arguably, meditation is supposed to help put the brain in delta waves, but I cannot control my brain waves throughout the night, and no amount of CBT is going to change the functions of my nervous system.

So I wonder if what you say here is sort of like someone on an forum for chronic insomnia sufferers telling everyone that the research shows CBT is the answer? Just my take on it. Please don't be discouraged posting here naia. I lot of people like your posts just the same. Just please understand that reality often does not conform to what "the research shows". And one research truth can totally cancel out the next, so they really are not absolutes.

I also think that many people give too much "power" to research. I mean if research was that powerful, sleep aids wouldn't be one of the most frequently prescribed medications--they would not even exist perhaps; everyone's depression would be cured, and so on.

This assumes we are in therapy with attachment as "that focus." My therapy has never had attachment as a focus (and it has been quite effective). Not everyone wants or even needs attachment to be the focus in their therapy.

The other thing about published research is that there is always a bias, always the potential for omissions and distortions and fraud, especially when big bucks are involved. Have to consider the source and, who's funding, and so on.

ex vivo: This is obviously getting off topic, but have you looked at your sleep environment with regard to issues around wireless radiation? When someone says things suddenly got worse, makes me wonder if some new source of wireless radiation came into the picture -- smart meters installed by a utility company, smartTV, WiFi, smart phone being used as an alarm clock, etc.

I'm citing research because I was asked where I was getting numbers, not because I'm saying it is gospel. I'm answering a question that was asked.

I also did not say that attachment should be the focus. I clearly said that if that were the focus, it's an important issue to take up.

I never advocated for one kind of therapy over another, certainly not CBT, which I really don't like. It's all backwards. Emotions come first; thoughts come later. To say you can think your way out of depression makes no sense to me. And it seems to do harm because it essentially blames the person for thinking wrong when there are a lot of reasons why someone could be depressed.

But I'm tired now. I seem to post to correct misperceptions, which is not the purpose of this whole thing. I didn't come here to argue or have to defend myself. I came here for support and to support others. I have really serious things going on. I just can't continue to have abstract arguments when I'm being misinterpreted left and right. Sorry.

I think people are reacting because you are saying things like "there are universals in therapy" or "attachment is another universal." It comes across as dogmatic. Universal refers to things everyone experiences; it doesn't mean the same as absolute in a philosophical sense, true, but it's still hard to say anything in therapy is a universal. E.g., some people don't experience attachment in therapy, nor do they want to, so how can it be a universal?

Support is best given and received if it doesn't sound dogmatic. Just make it clear that you're speaking from your own experience.

I do speak from personal experience. I also refer to things in the field if a question comes up that needs to be clarified. There is a difference between a personal opinion and a professional set of standards for what is known at this point.

People may not experience attachment in therapy; I already said that. What I said is attachment is there regardless of whether it is the focus or not. If you don't know about attachment, are not interested in that focus, then of course you won't experience it. Does that mean it doesn't exist? To say attachment has been proven by research is not the same as saying it's absolute. There are no absolutes. In a sense, no universals. But that doesn't mean that nothing whatsoever holds across the board for therapy regardless of whether they are part of a person's experience. If I say the client's attitude counts for most of the change, yet a particular person feels that the T does the work, does that mean that what is known about therapy is wrong? It may not be experienced by that person. Just attachment might not. How does that mean it is not something known in the field? And how is referring to what is known in the field construed as "dogmatic"? These are not my opinions; they are readily available. To assert the opposite, "there are no universals" might be taken as "dogmatic" as well, especially when not exactly true. Someone's karma ran over someone's dogma, as the bumper sticker goes.

If youre unhappy with your therapy, you have friends here. Otherwise youre probably delusional.

I am not unhappy with what I use therapy for. I was deeply frustrated when I tried using it like the therapist tried to foist upon me and what some here describe as working for them. I really think if it works for you - great. Just that it doesn't for everyone and certainly not in the same way. Even those guys don't agree on what types to use and when and why.

I caved and e-mailed him. This is what I wrote.
We spent years navigating our relationship. 15 years of my life. Breaking it down, you started it with your unsubtle signals. I could get specific but I will spare you. I fell in love, we have a lot of similarities that I really appreciated. It was, for me, an amazing connection and attraction. You validated my feeling that I was a fish out of water. You are cultured, a true global voyager.
Eventually you tired of me.
You did not have the balls to have that conversation with me. It would have been hard, but at least I would have felt respected.
Because you are a narcissist who will never own how the damage of your lies has the potential to leave deep and lifelong scars.
I need to feel sure that you will not victimize another woman.
It may get you off, but for us it is devastating.
I really hope that this is not your pattern. Not that I consider myself special, anything but.
Please resist traumatizing more stupid shits like me.

I'm not unhappy nor delusional. This is just frustrating because people don't listen, aren't willing to, don't seem able to see a difference between what a personal opinion is and what a professional finding is. This in other forums where I've been a moderator would be seen as meta-discussions and even personalizing so ruled out.

Therefore, even if misunderstood and deeply concerned, I have no choice ethically but to opt out, not post, hope that some of what I have said is helpful.

I think I need to quit posting here as well. I have serious issues at stake, do not have the support I need, and am finding people very argumentative when I'm trying to find people to connect with. It's a shame. The other sites where I was a moderator were at times too harsh, but personalizing and flagrant, repeated accusations were taken up immediately and privately that so that these things did not appear in public.

No one has contacted me privately to take up issues I've raised. I'm tired of being beaten up in public when I'm being beaten up in real life. Have a heart. Some people have serious issues at stake. Being regularly attacked by an intimate person is high on the list of stressors. Having police do nothing to protect you also high on the list of the likelihood of recovering from such trauma. Add in everything else and it is a disaster.

I think I need to stop posting here since no one seems to get that I'm in a situation that is dire, dangerous, without resources, help, family, friends. I am so tired of having abstract arguments where people just attack without understanding, without consideration, without doing their own homework.

Just fed up. Sorry, but this place offered something I thought I needed. Instead, it's been nothing but hassle about such tiny things I can't even figure out why they matter.

One could always start their own thread and ask directly for what they want or need.

I have started threads. It is pointless here. There seems to be a high school mentality of in-groups and out-groups, which I don't get because we are all adults and besides I was so alienated, so poor, so alone in my youth that a high school model simply doesn't even make any sense to me. I was a straight A student, but had no money so worked at 14 just to make quarters for milk money for school lunches. I was told to move out or pay rent at 16 so left home, never to connect with family again.

I worked full time, sometimes homeless since my first true love committed suicide on his birthday, and I was blamed so kicked out of the group home, without any warning, nothing but a single picture of him.

I didn't know that much about therapy then. I was reading a lot of things that I have now seen referenced in the literature on therapy. I just needed to survive, eating Ramen and grapefruit for years, so underweight, working more than 5 jobs to make it through college.

I don't get why people are so mean-spirited. Some of us, regardless of background, color, ethinicity, age, sex, gender, sexual preferences, are still worthy of decent treatment, respect for differences. We already have it hard enough. Why post at a site that just makes things into an argument? How is that beneficial to anyone?

If I hear that people might be more open, maybe I'll risk posting again. But I think my time here has been totally wasted. I've been attacked when I'm being attacked literally so I don't even want to say how that feels.

Be nice, I'll be nice. Be honest, I'll be honest. Be appreciative, I'll be appreciative.

If you have "issues" please take them up privately not post them on a public thread. There are smart interesting people here, but I have to set limits to what is tolerable and what is not.

I would agree if something isn't what you are looking for, then going elsewhere may work out better.

One takes risks when posting on any internet forum. Yes, we sometimes argue here, and it's often enlightening.

This particular site has a number of forums, not just the "Psychotherapy" one (where, yes, we do tend to have these "meta-discussions"). Some of those forums are more specific to your issues and you might find them useful.

I agree that this place is very polarized and cliquey. Lot of wounded people i suppose, looking for allies, and wanting the certainty of knowing who is the "other".

As for meanness, i think anonymous internet sites are a breeding ground for bad behavior and are probably best avoided. I have learned a lot here and received some valuable support but i consider my ongoing participation to be mostly unhealthy and disturbingly compulsive. I will also add that i did not previously hang out in therapy forums. It wasn't until destructive therapy and abrupt termination saddled me with a huge backlog of pent up rage and powerlessness that i came online seeking an outlet.