[Argonautomobile]

This has come up on other threads and I've been thinking about it for a while.

Do you feel your T instructs you? Provides information? Educates?

Is there something inherently offensive about the idea that you're struggling because there's something you haven't learned yet? That a T can either provide that missing information or discover it with you or help you find it on your own?

I consider my T an instructor of sorts. In fact, it's sort of hard for me to imagine therapy without a certain level of instruction. Empathy, understanding, commiseration--it's all important. But I feel I go to therapy primarily to learn. About myself. Life. The human condition. What the hell it means to rotate one's tires.

Obviously it isn't a passive instruction--my T doesn't pontificate while I take notes. But I have never felt personally that there was anything shameful in needing education--in fact, I'd say most of my problems stem from the fact that I haven't learned something, be it pure information, a skill, a different way of looking at things, what have you.

What do you think?

My T has definitely instructed me and I don't find that at all offensive. I clearly had things I needed to learn. Most of what he helped me learn had to do with skills concerning processing automatic thought, mistaken beliefs, etc. It certainly isn't all we did in therapy, but those skills were probably the bedrock of information that I had to learn to internalize so that I could function with more stability, less depression, less anxiety. Those skills are what I carried out of those sessions and into my everyday life and functioning. Those skills are what I realize now I use each and every day in some way even now that I am no longer in therapy. Yes, I could have read about them in a book (I did, in fact), but reading and comprehending skills is not at all the same thing as actually applying those skills with consistency over a long period of time so that they become internalized across one's life. That's where the long-term therapy, support, and practice, practice, practice with my therapist was so vital for me.

Do I think everyone goes to therapy to learn? No. But for me, learning was a very large aspect of my therapy: often very informally; sometimes rather methodically.

I agree. It wasn't teaching and learning like a classroom. My T didn't sit there and impart knowledge while I passively sat and learned. Not at all. It was more like a hands-on laboratory where I was my subject and I was the student very in charge of my learning. My therapist was more the guide on the side (to use very overused teacher-talk), watching, helping me clarify, offering suggestions and options, helping me reframe and redirect when I lost my way or was confused, reteaching when needed, etc.

[atisketatasket]

"Is there something inherently offensive about the idea that you're struggling because there's something you haven't learned yet? That a T can either provide that missing information or discover it with you or help you find it on your own?"

Yes. It starts therapy off with a client=broken/therapist=savior approach.

One may learn things during therapy. I have learned one or two myself. But the idea as you phrase it suggests deliberate instruction, like the therapist has a syllabus and a lesson plan for the client. The learning should be incidental, like an insight you have when reading a great novel.

[Pennster]

I feel more like I go to therapy to work than to learn. I feel more like we work together on things rather than that he's instructing me. For me therapy is more about unresolved grief and past trauma. On the grief stuff in particular, I don't think there's anything he can teach me (and I'm not convinced he knows more than me about it). I need someone to be with me in it.

I love education, and I love learning. I just don't think that's what my therapy is about. For me, therapy is more about feeling. I do think he's helping to reset my brain, but it's a squishier thing than instruction.

[spring2014]

Originally Posted by Argonautomobile

This has come up on other threads and I've been thinking about it for a while.

Do you feel your T instructs you? Provides information? Educates?

Is there something inherently offensive about the idea that you're struggling because there's something you haven't learned yet? That a T can either provide that missing information or discover it with you or help you find it on your own?

I consider my T an instructor of sorts. In fact, it's sort of hard for me to imagine therapy without a certain level of instruction. Empathy, understanding, commiseration--it's all important. But I feel I go to therapy primarily to learn. About myself. Life. The human condition. What the hell it means to rotate one's tires.

Obviously it isn't a passive instruction--my T doesn't pontificate while I take notes. But I have never felt personally that there was anything shameful in needing education--in fact, I'd say most of my problems stem from the fact that I haven't learned something, be it pure information, a skill, a different way of looking at things, what have you.

What do you think?

hi mobile,
my therapist instruct on what I should be doing outside of counseling as well during my counseling sessions. it her way to teach me new things in counseling as well as I do them outside of counseling. she also teaches psycho- educational classes for those who are assigned by the courts to go to parenting classes and drug and alcohol rehab classes as well as shoplifters classes .



Diagnosis: Anxiety and depression
meds: Cymbalta 60 mgs at night
Vistrail 2 25 mgs daily for anxiety prn
50 mgs at night for insomnia with an additional 25 mgs=75 mgs when up past 1:00 in the morning

There are manybthings my therapist has needed to teach me. I find it helplful.

[AllHeart]

I've always viewed my t as a teacher, just not in the traditional sense of course. To say she instructs and educates sounds so formal. My t arms me with knowledge and shares her wisdom with me which has provided me with a healthier, more accepting view of myself and the rest of the world. What she is ultimately teaching me is how to live a meaningful, fulfilling life as a better human being.

[spring2014]

Originally Posted by Starry_Night

There are manybthings my therapist has needed to teach me. I find it helplful.

hi starry night,
me too .my therapist taught me cbt , rebt , and she taught me to do dual awareness . I learned a lot from my therapist over the past year and four months that I have been working with her. her experience with being a counselor that has a nursing background has given my therapist the knowledge to share about nutrition,exercise , and medication gives her the title of being an experienced registered nurse to her title as well as a LPC . she is also teaches psycho-educational classes as well as being a counselor. she specializes in anxiety, depression, relationships, adjustments to life changes and promoting strengths for personal growth .




Diagnosis: Anxiety and depression
meds: Cymbalta 60 mgs at night
Vistrail 2 25 mgs daily for anxiety prn
50 mgs at night for insomnia with an additional 25 mgs=75 mgs when up past 1:00 in the morning

[feralkittymom]

I've never thought of teaching and learning as opposing functions. To me they go hand in hand, and one can't advance without the other. I don't know how I could learn about myself without teaching my T about me; I don't know how my T could teach me without learning from me. I don't find shame in learning, so also don't find offense in teaching.

[stopdog]

I do not see the therapist as a teacher in what I am doing with hiring one of them. The way the question is phrased, I tend to agree with ATAT about it sets up an idea that I do find, if not repugnant, then at least off base and unnecessary for me. I was perfectly willing to listen to the woman if she would have explained to me about therapy and what she was doing, and I do let the second one explain it to me. But otherwise I don't really see what the woman could or would instruct me in. I use the woman to sit there, stay back and I say aloud things I don't tell real people. I don't need or expect the woman to do more than sit there and not talk.
And that sometimes exceeds her abilities- if she can't manage that simple job, Why would I task her abilities further.

[Argonautomobile]

Originally Posted by lolagrace

My T has definitely instructed me and I don't find that at all offensive. I clearly had things I needed to learn. Most of what he helped me learn had to do with skills concerning processing automatic thought, mistaken beliefs, etc. It certainly isn't all we did in therapy, but those skills were probably the bedrock of information that I had to learn to internalize so that I could function with more stability, less depression, less anxiety. Those skills are what I carried out of those sessions and into my everyday life and functioning. Those skills are what I realize now I use each and every day in some way even now that I am no longer in therapy. Yes, I could have read about them in a book (I did, in fact), but reading and comprehending skills is not at all the same thing as actually applying those skills with consistency over a long period of time so that they become internalized across one's life. That's where the long-term therapy, support, and practice, practice, practice with my therapist was so vital for me.

Do I think everyone goes to therapy to learn? No. But for me, learning was a very large aspect of my therapy: often very informally; sometimes rather methodically.

I agree. It wasn't teaching and learning like a classroom. My T didn't sit there and impart knowledge while I passively sat and learned. Not at all. It was more like a hands-on laboratory where I was my subject and I was the student very in charge of my learning. My therapist was more the guide on the side (to use very overused teacher-talk), watching, helping me clarify, offering suggestions and options, helping me reframe and redirect when I lost my way or was confused, reteaching when needed, etc.

Always appreciate your posts, Lola. This is very nicely put. I agree there's something different about learning in person vs from a book--it helps bridge that transition from intellectually knowing something to actually believing it, practicing it, internalizing it. I'm glad you've found it helpful in that respect. Thanks again!

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

"Is there something inherently offensive about the idea that you're struggling because there's something you haven't learned yet? That a T can either provide that missing information or discover it with you or help you find it on your own?"

Yes. It starts therapy off with a client=broken/therapist=savior approach.

One may learn things during therapy. I have learned one or two myself. But the idea as you phrase it suggests deliberate instruction, like the therapist has a syllabus and a lesson plan for the client. The learning should be incidental, like an insight you have when reading a great novel.

Thanks for this perspective, ATAT! Funny, I've never equated needing instruction/insight/information as being broken. Or possessing information making one a savior. I've never thought the idea of my needing information as implying there's something wrong with me. I agree, though, that my phrasing might sound formal, and therapist as teacher w/ syllabus doesn't quite describe my experience, either. I wonder, if the learning is incidental (as indeed some if not much of my own learning had been) does that mean the T doesn't instruct? Hmm...

Originally Posted by Pennster

I feel more like I go to therapy to work than to learn. I feel more like we work together on things rather than that he's instructing me. For me therapy is more about unresolved grief and past trauma. On the grief stuff in particular, I don't think there's anything he can teach me (and I'm not convinced he knows more than me about it). I need someone to be with me in it.

I love education, and I love learning. I just don't think that's what my therapy is about. For me, therapy is more about feeling. I do think he's helping to reset my brain, but it's a squishier thing than instruction.

Thanks for this! I agree it's pretty difficult to shove grief and loss into an instructional mold. It's hard for me to imagine a therapist (or anyone, for that matter) as possessing some secret information that makes everything better.

I'm glad you brought up trauma, because I've had an idea rattling around in my brain that I'm having trouble articulating...I wonder if part of the reason people balk at the idea that lack of information/need of instruction as the cause (and therefore remedy) of a problem is because they assume that the lack of information is the sole cause or initiating cause of the problem. Take trauma--yeah, I can see being offended if someone tells you that you're struggling due to lack of information. **** that. You're struggling because you've been traumatized. And that had to do with someone else being an asshole and not with you lacking information.

But does that mean there's nothing you can learn which will help ease the pain? I think even my T's just being there with my pain teaches me something--that it can be weathered. That trauma is not, after all, unspeakable. That revealing it doesn't infect who I am as a person or make me disgusting. In this way, I think my problems around trauma were caused at least in part by lacking information--I lacked the information that the traumatic event(s) didn't make me vile. I needed to learn--to be instructed--that I was not unlovable because of them.

But, yeah, this is all quite "squishier" than the word "instruction" would suggest.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by spring2014

hi mobile,
my therapist instruct on what I should be doing outside of counseling as well during my counseling sessions. it her way to teach me new things in counseling as well as I do them outside of counseling. she also teaches psycho- educational classes for those who are assigned by the courts to go to parenting classes and drug and alcohol rehab classes as well as shoplifters classes .

Psychoeducation is awesome! I don't consider myself an uneducated person, but there was PLENTY I didn't know about anxiety, depression, mental illness, trauma, addiction...and skills to cope with these things. I'm glad you've benefited from this overt instruction. I have, too.

Originally Posted by Starry_Night

There are many things my therapist has needed to teach me. I find it helplful.

Me, too Glad it's worked out!

Originally Posted by AllHeart

I've always viewed my t as a teacher, just not in the traditional sense of course. To say she instructs and educates sounds so formal. My t arms me with knowledge and shares her wisdom with me which has provided me with a healthier, more accepting view of myself and the rest of the world. What she is ultimately teaching me is how to live a meaningful, fulfilling life as a better human being.

Thanks for this, AllHeart! I agree. "Instruct" and "educate" do sound very formal--and passive, as though you go to a once-weekly lecture where someone else tells you all about yourself! I'm glad you feel your T has had something to teach you. I feel that way, too.

Originally Posted by spring2014

hi starry night,
me too .my therapist taught me cbt , rebt , and she taught me to do dual awareness . I learned a lot from my therapist over the past year and four months that I have been working with her. her experience with being a counselor that has a nursing background has given my therapist the knowledge to share about nutrition,exercise , and medication gives her the title of being an experienced registered nurse to her title as well as a LPC . she is also teaches psycho-educational classes as well as being a counselor. she specializes in anxiety, depression, relationships, adjustments to life changes and promoting strengths for personal growth .

Sweet!

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

I've never thought of teaching and learning as opposing functions. To me they go hand in hand, and one can't advance without the other. I don't know how I could learn about myself without teaching my T about me; I don't know how my T could teach me without learning from me. I don't find shame in learning, so also don't find offense in teaching.

Very nicely put! I'm almost jealous I didn't think of it first. Somebody needs to turn "I don't find shame in learning or offense in teaching" into a bumper sticker or something. I agree they go hand-in-hand, most especially in a therapy setting. Thanks again!

[Argonautomobile]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I do not see the therapist as a teacher in what I am doing with hiring one of them. The way the question is phrased, I tend to agree with ATAT about it sets up an idea that I do find, if not repugnant, then at least off base and unnecessary for me. I was perfectly willing to listen to the woman if she would have explained to me about therapy and what she was doing, and I do let the second one explain it to me. But otherwise I don't really see what the woman could or would instruct me in. I use the woman to sit there, stay back and I say aloud things I don't tell real people. I don't need or expect the woman to do more than sit there and not talk.
And that sometimes exceeds her abilities- if she can't manage that simple job, Why would I task her abilities further.

Well, no, SD, I wouldn't expect that you would find the woman had anything useful to say, let alone teach!

Though I am still struggling to see how the original question ("Is there something inherently offensive about the idea that you're struggling because there's something you haven't learned yet? That a T can either provide that missing information or discover it with you or help you find it on your own?") sets up a broken client/savior therapist approach. I suppose I can see, sort of, how it leans in that direction--how it could, conceivably, under certain circumstances, occur with said repugnant approach. But actually set up? Pave the way for? Necessarily lead to? I'll have to think about that.

Again, I've just never equated needing information with being "broken" or less than, and have never seen possessing and imparting information as putting one in a savior role. (mostly thinking out loud; not trying to start an argument)

Anyway, thanks for your input!

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by Argonautomobile

Well, no, SD, I wouldn't expect that you would find the woman had anything useful to say, let alone teach!
!

This is not completely accurate in terms of me. The woman does have knowledge, or at least should, about therapy and what she is doing that I would happily listen to. She refuses to explain so I see the he second one for the explanation and information. The first one's refusal does not prevent me obtaining said information, I just don't obtain it from her. Should she ever decide to become forthcomng about what her purpose is, I will listen. But without that information, I then have no reason to let her talk. She is not inadequate at staying back and so I use her for that.

[Argonautomobile]

Originally Posted by stopdog

This is not completely accurate in terms of me. The woman does have knowledge, or at least should, about therapy and what she is doing that I would happily listen to. She refuses to explain so I see the he second one for the explanation and information. The first one's refusal does not prevent me obtaining said information, I just don't obtain it from her. Should she vever decide to become forthcomng about what her purpose is, I will listen.

Thank you for clarifying. Yeah, one would hope that one's therapist had information about therapy. And I'm glad you're not closed to hearing it--and also that you can obtain it despite her being less than forthcoming.

[stopdog]

I am resourceful and not one to be thwarted by the likes of a therapist.

[JaneTennison1]

She doesn't instruct or tell me what to do, it would never end well if she did. My T and I are both aware that she is not my saviour but that I am the only one who can and will save myself. However talking it through, gathering some coping ideas, exploring it all may be useful in my journey.

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

I've never thought of teaching and learning as opposing functions. To me they go hand in hand, and one can't advance without the other. I don't know how I could learn about myself without teaching my T about me; I don't know how my T could teach me without learning from me. I don't find shame in learning, so also don't find offense in teaching.

I would like to "like" this comment several times

[ruh roh]

My therapist is helpful in that she understands a particular subject area related to what I'm going through in current day life, as well as how it triggers flashbacks. I think the only thing she has provided instruction on is something every other adult I've met already knows how to do. I didn't ask for instruction on it, but I didn't mind when she started explaining.

[missbella]

My therapists seemed to fancy themselves as life masters, but were legends in their own minds. I occasionally have to suffer the obnoxiousness of a therapist who belongs to a local group with me. She gives stationery store-worthy advice like she fancies herself a mountaintop oracle. She reviews her own work, believing herself effortlessly brilliant. She crosses the room to say something bossy and diminishing. She's one of the most socially pathetic, narcissistic human beings I've had the misfortune to know.

Thank you for this thread. I had the same attitudes and beliefs as you have stated, and I feel therapy was successful in my life. The after affects continue to propel me into a better life than before. I spent so much of my life reacting to everything, waiting for the next wrong do Ain't could justify position, justify myself. I was on call 24/7, and go into a depression just to get non-restful sleep, only to wake up and start the process over. My life sucked!

I'm kind of at a loss to understand when people say this is infantalizing. I learn new things or forgotten information brought to mind by people of all ages, and backgrounds. But it was only with my therapist that I was willing to reveal all my secrets, my doubts, etc, so she had more of a complete picture of who I was and where I wanted to get. So what you point out in your thread makes perfect sense to me.

[stopdog]

I would think that it is not impossible to learn something from therapy - which to me is very very different from whether a therapist instructs a client.

[Argonautomobile]

Originally Posted by JaneTennison1

She doesn't instruct or tell me what to do, it would never end well if she did. My T and I are both aware that she is not my saviour but that I am the only one who can and will save myself. However talking it through, gathering some coping ideas, exploring it all may be useful in my journey.

I guess I consider talking it through and gathering ideas to be a form of instruction. But I'm glad your T doesn't tell you what to do. I agree that wouldn't end well. I'm glad my T rarely/never does this. I admit there are times in my life where I'm extra, super agreeable (or hopelessly lost) and would jump off a bridge if the right person told me to.

Originally Posted by ruh roh

My therapist is helpful in that she understands a particular subject area related to what I'm going through in current day life, as well as how it triggers flashbacks. I think the only thing she has provided instruction on is something every other adult I've met already knows how to do. I didn't ask for instruction on it, but I didn't mind when she started explaining.

Glad you didn't mind--and glad she understands! I completely relate to the 'every other adult' knows how to do thing. I sometimes feel I missed the symposium where everybody else learned common sense. Like my invitation got lost in the mail and now I don't know how to address an envelope! I can, of course, always do my own research and learn independently, but it is sort of nice having someone around who will take 2.7 seconds to explain how to adult if it comes up in session.

Originally Posted by missbella

My therapists seemed to fancy themselves as life masters, but were legends in their own minds. I occasionally have to suffer the obnoxiousness of a therapist who belongs to a local group with me. She gives stationery store-worthy advice like she fancies herself a mountaintop oracle. She reviews her own work, believing herself effortlessly brilliant. She crosses the room to say something bossy and diminishing. She's one of the most socially pathetic, narcissistic human beings I've had the misfortune to know.

I've had teachers like that. Least favorite kind of people.

Originally Posted by Walkedthatroad

Thank you for this thread. I had the same attitudes and beliefs as you have stated, and I feel therapy was successful in my life. The after affects continue to propel me into a better life than before. I spent so much of my life reacting to everything, waiting for the next wrong do Ain't could justify position, justify myself. I was on call 24/7, and go into a depression just to get non-restful sleep, only to wake up and start the process over. My life sucked!

I'm kind of at a loss to understand when people say this is infantalizing. I learn new things or forgotten information brought to mind by people of all ages, and backgrounds. But it was only with my therapist that I was willing to reveal all my secrets, my doubts, etc, so she had more of a complete picture of who I was and where I wanted to get. So what you point out in your thread makes perfect sense to me.

Thank you for this reply! Glad therapy has made your life suck less. Mine too!

I think I can sort of see why people feel it's infantilizing. I think instruction/advice of any sort has the potential to be infantilizing (though I've certainly never thought it inherently so). I'd probably feel differently if I'd experienced a lot of patronizing advice or the kind of teachers/therapists missbella describes. That might make me prickly to all advice/instruction. As it is, I've been very lucky to have many good teachers (of all sorts, not just those who work in schools) and to have always enjoyed learning of all sorts.

I might also feel differently if I were older/more experienced/less incompetent!

Anyway, thanks for your reply!

Originally Posted by stopdog

I would think that it is possible to learn something from therapy - which to me is very very different from whether a therapist instructs a client.

Good point. I'm using the word 'instruction' very loosely here, I think. Looser than I probably should. I'll think about some more precise vocabulary.

[nottrustin]

I do not feel t inducted me what to do. In fact I am pretty sure she would be upset if I did. She provides guidance and helps me see things from different perspectives. However she ultimately wants me to do what is best for me even if she doesn't necessarily agree. Everything I have learned has been to my hard work with her support.

If I ask, yes ... Otherwise, no.

I came out of my former life with very little knowledge of how things are supposed to work as I was never taught too much of anything.

So, instruction in some areas has been appreciated when needed and asked for.

Of course, I can be very resistant to instruction, but I'm finally learning that not everybody is out to eff me over like my toxic family of origin did.

Learning to ask others for help, knowledge, instruction is still difficult for me due to trust issues, but ...

I'm getting there.

Thankfully!

[Fuzzybear]

With wildly unhelpful suggestions mostly...

(So I hibernated for many years due to having been retraumatised by this IRL T I almost trusted for many years)

Still working on trust stuff (and not trusting the wrong people)