[granite1]

im so confused about how things work in this world .an my T confuses me even more at times . i tried to be so calm and have a rational conversation with her . i think i did ok but she still cant see what i see . we talked a lot about what went on at the scrapbook store i teach and hang out at . i did actually go and talk to the store owner . she is suppose to be my friend . she sent me bunches of texts asking me to not stop coming to the store etc.. and how wrong the other person was etc... but to me it made no difference to me all i saw was her making excuses for the other persons behavior . in reality i wanted the store owner ,my friend to stand up for me to tell her it isnt ok for her to do what she did. my T and i talked about how all my life people had to know what was happening to me and for some reason did nothing . she keeps talking about how it is all about what the mother did to me . but it isnt and im trying to get her to see that . it isnt the mother it is everyone around her. these people had to know what was going on and did nothing . and she wonders why i hate people . my T says that someone who has traumatized like i was (again hate that word) tends to react and can get triggered when some one else is acting out of control. i just wanted it to be different this time . i wanted some one to care about what happened to me . not the person who is acting out or abusing me . the world seems so backwards . my T says that we need to talk about what the mother did and figure out together what happened. that thought terrifies me completely

[velcro003]

you can do it granite, i know it!

I agree you can do it, granite!

Your feelings make total sense to me, Granite. One of the things I have been working on in my own therapy is my desperate desire for things to be different NOW. I know what my mother did was crappy. But I desperately want the people in my life now to have my back, be willing to stick up for me, be willing to defend me when I am being unfairly attacked or treated badly. My T thinks that focusing on the source of the desperation behind that wish for someone to be on my side: i.e. how badly everyone in my life as a child failed me, we will somehow drain some of the intensity of that desire away. So far that has been completely unsuccessful. My guess is that your T has a similar theory.

tc and hugs

[granite1]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

Your feelings make total sense to me, Granite. One of the things I have been working on in my own therapy is my desperate desire for things to be different NOW. I know what my mother did was crappy. But I desperately want the people in my life now to have my back, be willing to stick up for me, be willing to defend me when I am being unfairly attacked or treated badly. My T thinks that focusing on the source of the desperation behind that wish for someone to be on my side: i.e. how badly everyone in my life as a child failed me, we will somehow drain some of the intensity of that desire away. So far that has been completely unsuccessful. My guess is that your T has a similar theory.

i often think that i must be completely insane and it is completely wrong how i feel about all of it . its like i have two choices either the world is just all messed up and not to be trusted . people are selfish and care nothing about others . out for themselves. or.... i am just a horrible person . i bring out the worst in people being who i am .that im completely selfish and unrealistic in my expectations of other people. i know my T wants me to try and see a middle ground here but i cant seem to .i think someone is a friend and find out differently,i get hurt . and the world falls apart . i dont think i could ever forgive people in my life as a child for not doing anything to help me . i know it flows into my life now but why does it seem to be ok to just be a horrible person treat people horrible and it is accepted . i see it here a lot . it seems to me the more horrible a person is to others the more people flock around that person trying to helpand just accepts that behavior . it seems like this inreal life also

Originally Posted by granite1

i often think that i must be completely insane and it is completely wrong how i feel about all of it . its like i have two choices either the world is just all messed up and not to be trusted . people are selfish and care nothing about others . out for themselves. or.... i am just a horrible person . i bring out the worst in people being who i am .that im completely selfish and unrealistic in my expectations of other people. i know my T wants me to try and see a middle ground here but i cant seem to .i think someone is a friend and find out differently,i get hurt . and the world falls apart . i dont think i could ever forgive people in my life as a child for not doing anything to help me . i know it flows into my life now but why does it seem to be ok to just be a horrible person treat people horrible and it is accepted . i see it here a lot . it seems to me the more horrible a person is to others the more people flock around that person trying to helpand just accepts that behavior . it seems like this inreal life also

You mentioned recently that I have stopped sharing about my therapy journey on PC. What you wrote above is why I have stopped. I do not understand the politics or dynamics or whatever of the forum any more than I understand real life.

I am working on forgiving people for not helping me growing up. I look at so many of the "creepy" behaviors I had growing up that people judged me for or were disgusted at me about and realize that all of them, ALL OF THEM, are listed as red flag warnings that a child is being physically and sexually abused. I realize that my feeling of being defective and unworthy, and that being the reason that no one is ever on my side, is incorrect, but it still FEELS that way.

The people I have chosen as my friends in life, as my partner in life, are not people who are willing to engage in conflict for any reason. Conflict, taking my side, makes them so anxious and unhappy and feels so unsafe for them, that they cannot seem to do it. It doesn't mean they are evil, so it must mean I am not worth the effort, right? There is just something fundamentally WRONG with me. That is how it feels to me, and it seems like that is how it feels to you as well. I know you would never tell me that I am just fundamentally defective, and I hope that eventually you can see that you are not either. [I hope for that for me as well. lol.]

[granite1]

that is exactly how i feel . that there is just something fundamentally wrong with me and always has been . right or wrong i feel this strongly . i dont understand how so many people could ignore so much . i even directly told a teacher one time . one morning before school the mother was chocking me for some reason . this of course left scratches and big bruises on my neck . the teacher asked me what happened i told me my mother did it and she just ignored it completely . it just seemed to be so common place that a mother would be chocking her kid before school . i took it as it was not all that big of a deal . this seemed to be the reaction most all people in my life had

I once told a school counselor. He said he had met my parents and knew they were wonderful people who loved me very much. If they were doing what I said, obviously I had been doing something to provoke them. I should stop provoking them. Then he called my mother and told her about the "stories" I was making up about them.

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by granite1

that is exactly how i feel . that there is just something fundamentally wrong with me and always has been . right or wrong i feel this strongly . i dont understand how so many people could ignore so much . i even directly told a teacher one time . one morning before school the mother was chocking me for some reason . this of course left scratches and big bruises on my neck . the teacher asked me what happened i told me my mother did it and she just ignored it completely . it just seemed to be so common place that a mother would be chocking her kid before school . i took it as it was not all that big of a deal . this seemed to be the reaction most all people in my life had

Unfortunately Granite, when you were young, abuse wasn't taken as seriously as it is today. That is a terrible thing, and i know the shame you feel is so profound which is why you feel like no matter what, you are a horrible person. I just think you are thinking completely in black and white. Either you are a horrible person and deserve all your friendships ending, or they all hate you (because you are a horrible person). Except, from what you've said, your friends DO care about you, it sounds like the owner of the store kept trying to keep in contact with you. I don't know the specifics of what happene,d but you may have blown it out of proportion (maybe?). If you ever want to PM me, you know where i am.

[feralkittymom]

One of the most helpful on-going discussions I had with my T was about what friendships are. What do they look like and how do they function? I had no idea--I knew the warped dynamics of relationships in my family, saw how duplicitous my mother was with her "friends"--being nice to their faces, and demeaning them to me--so all I learned growing up was to expect both everything and nothing from "friends." I expected them to inappropriately meet all my unmet needs, as well as expected them to hurt me and be duplicitous. Crazy-making, no? The wonder is that some stuck around anyway.

My T helped me to deconstruct all these expectations and behaviors that kept me trapped in a cycle of isolation. It came about because of housemate issues during grad school, and he helped me to see that respect is about giving others the freedom to be who they are, and part of that is accepting that others are allowed to define their relationships with everyone in their life. So a friend can be in relationship with me and with someone with whom I'm not a friend. It's like when a friend has a spouse we don't like: well, we can have our opinion, but we can't keep our friend and not respect their choice for their life. And their relationship with someone else does not define or impinge on their relationship with us. But that's a friendship--a marriage or similar relationship is a bit different because the emotional investment is higher. And I think it's one of those things that couples have to sort out between themselves. Sometimes they won't be able to be with us in the way we want, not because of who we are, but because they have their own history and challenges.

As children, we were never respected as autonomous beings: we were controlled, abused, ignored, scapegoated, seen as extensions of our parents, etc. And being children, those lessons and their pain run deep. And they form our perception of the world.

I found part of what helped me was the cognitive adjustment and education about relationships; a bigger part was the lessons learned from the modeling of a respecting relationship by my T. As the unmet needs were met, they subsided; as I was shown respect, I changed my expectations of how others would treat me (and how I treated myself.) And then I changed how I treated others.

But the feelings we had as children are appropriate and understandable: we should be angry, I think, at those adults who ignored our abuse.

One of the worst episodes of abuse I remember happened on a family trip. I was 8 years old. I won't go into detail, but as a result of what happened, I was covered in bruises: arms, legs, neck, face. I was so afraid of my mother finding out, that I used her make-up on my face in an attempt to hide the evidence. Needless to say, at 8 I wasn't wearing make-up and had no idea how to apply it. Although it was hot, I chose a long sleeved shirt and long pants. When my mother saw me, she got really angry, screaming at me that it was hot and how stupid was I to dress that way--and what did I have on my face? She made me wash my face and change into shorts and a sleeveless shirt. I was terrified for her to see me so exposed. What happened? Nothing. She didn't notice a thing. We were visiting a tourist place, and scores of adults had to have seen me looking like a truck ran over me: not one person intervened or even whispered to me, "Are you OK?" Hell yes, I have anger for those people! They had an adult responsibility to protect a child, and they looked away instead.

But I'm not a vulnerable child anymore: I don't need their protection, nor do I want it. Those feelings and needs and expectations ruled me before therapy, and they emerged strongly within therapy, and that was appropriate. But as they were addressed and explored, they were no longer alive. But the only way it worked for me was to allow my T to meet me in the middle of those needs.

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

One of the most helpful on-going discussions I had with my T was about what friendships are. What do they look like and how do they function? I had no idea--I knew the warped dynamics of relationships in my family, saw how duplicitous my mother was with her "friends"--being nice to their faces, and demeaning them to me--so all I learned growing up was to expect both everything and nothing from "friends." I expected them to inappropriately meet all my unmet needs, as well as expected them to hurt me and be duplicitous. Crazy-making, no? The wonder is that some stuck around anyway.

My T helped me to deconstruct all these expectations and behaviors that kept me trapped in a cycle of isolation. It came about because of housemate issues during grad school, and he helped me to see that respect is about giving others the freedom to be who they are, and part of that is accepting that others are allowed to define their relationships with everyone in their life. So a friend can be in relationship with me and with someone with whom I'm not a friend. It's like when a friend has a spouse we don't like: well, we can have our opinion, but we can't keep our friend and not respect their choice for their life. And their relationship with someone else does not define or impinge on their relationship with us. But that's a friendship--a marriage or similar relationship is a bit different because the emotional investment is higher. And I think it's one of those things that couples have to sort out between themselves. Sometimes they won't be able to be with us in the way we want, not because of who we are, but because they have their own history and challenges.

As children, we were never respected as autonomous beings: we were controlled, abused, ignored, scapegoated, seen as extensions of our parents, etc. And being children, those lessons and their pain run deep. And they form our perception of the world.

I found part of what helped me was the cognitive adjustment and education about relationships; a bigger part was the lessons learned from the modeling of a respecting relationship by my T. As the unmet needs were met, they subsided; as I was shown respect, I changed my expectations of how others would treat me (and how I treated myself.) And then I changed how I treated others.

But the feelings we had as children are appropriate and understandable: we should be angry, I think, at those adults who ignored our abuse.

One of the worst episodes of abuse I remember happened on a family trip. I was 8 years old. I won't go into detail, but as a result of what happened, I was covered in bruises: arms, legs, neck, face. I was so afraid of my mother finding out, that I used her make-up on my face in an attempt to hide the evidence. Needless to say, at 8 I wasn't wearing make-up and had no idea how to apply it. Although it was hot, I chose a long sleeved shirt and long pants. When my mother saw me, she got really angry, screaming at me that it was hot and how stupid was I to dress that way--and what did I have on my face? She made me wash my face and change into shorts and a sleeveless shirt. I was terrified for her to see me so exposed. What happened? Nothing. She didn't notice a thing. We were visiting a tourist place, and scores of adults had to have seen me looking like a truck ran over me: not one person intervened or even whispered to me, "Are you OK?" Hell yes, I have anger for those people! They had an adult responsibility to protect a child, and they looked away instead.

But I'm not a vulnerable child anymore: I don't need their protection, nor do I want it. Those feelings and needs and expectations ruled me before therapy, and they emerged strongly within therapy, and that was appropriate. But as they were addressed and explored, they were no longer alive. But the only way it worked for me was to allow my T to meet me in the middle of those needs.

Great post, and so sorry all that happened to you. Ugh, people.

[CantExplain]

in reality i wanted the store owner ,my friend to stand up for me to tell her it isnt ok for her to do what she did.

Big ask, but is it possible to tell her (the store owner) exactly that?

[granite1]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

One of the most helpful on-going discussions I had with my T was about what friendships are. What do they look like and how do they function? I had no idea--I knew the warped dynamics of relationships in my family, saw how duplicitous my mother was with her "friends"--being nice to their faces, and demeaning them to me--so all I learned growing up was to expect both everything and nothing from "friends." I expected them to inappropriately meet all my unmet needs, as well as expected them to hurt me and be duplicitous. Crazy-making, no? The wonder is that some stuck around anyway.

My T helped me to deconstruct all these expectations and behaviors that kept me trapped in a cycle of isolation. It came about because of housemate issues during grad school, and he helped me to see that respect is about giving others the freedom to be who they are, and part of that is accepting that others are allowed to define their relationships with everyone in their life. So a friend can be in relationship with me and with someone with whom I'm not a friend. It's like when a friend has a spouse we don't like: well, we can have our opinion, but we can't keep our friend and not respect their choice for their life. And their relationship with someone else does not define or impinge on their relationship with us. But that's a friendship--a marriage or similar relationship is a bit different because the emotional investment is higher. And I think it's one of those things that couples have to sort out between themselves. Sometimes they won't be able to be with us in the way we want, not because of who we are, but because they have their own history and challenges.

As children, we were never respected as autonomous beings: we were controlled, abused, ignored, scapegoated, seen as extensions of our parents, etc. And being children, those lessons and their pain run deep. And they form our perception of the world.

I found part of what helped me was the cognitive adjustment and education about relationships; a bigger part was the lessons learned from the modeling of a respecting relationship by my T. As the unmet needs were met, they subsided; as I was shown respect, I changed my expectations of how others would treat me (and how I treated myself.) And then I changed how I treated others.

But the feelings we had as children are appropriate and understandable: we should be angry, I think, at those adults who ignored our abuse.

One of the worst episodes of abuse I remember happened on a family trip. I was 8 years old. I won't go into detail, but as a result of what happened, I was covered in bruises: arms, legs, neck, face. I was so afraid of my mother finding out, that I used her make-up on my face in an attempt to hide the evidence. Needless to say, at 8 I wasn't wearing make-up and had no idea how to apply it. Although it was hot, I chose a long sleeved shirt and long pants. When my mother saw me, she got really angry, screaming at me that it was hot and how stupid was I to dress that way--and what did I have on my face? She made me wash my face and change into shorts and a sleeveless shirt. I was terrified for her to see me so exposed. What happened? Nothing. She didn't notice a thing. We were visiting a tourist place, and scores of adults had to have seen me looking like a truck ran over me: not one person intervened or even whispered to me, "Are you OK?" Hell yes, I have anger for those people! They had an adult responsibility to protect a child, and they looked away instead.

But I'm not a vulnerable child anymore: I don't need their protection, nor do I want it. Those feelings and needs and expectations ruled me before therapy, and they emerged strongly within therapy, and that was appropriate. But as they were addressed and explored, they were no longer alive. But the only way it worked for me was to allow my T to meet me in the middle of those needs.

wow im so sorry this happened to you . it is amazing how people tend to see only what they want to see . im guilty of this myself . i can only see the horrible of people at times .my T wants me to look at this and understand why i do this . she wants me to talk about the mother i think . im more angry at the world then the mother . people like my doctor,teachers, my nanny,my farther .he took pictures of the bruises and went to see a lawyer and didnt want to do anything because supposedly he didnt want the mother to go to jail . i think he didnt want the responsibility of me . my grandparents and family . no one did anything at all ever . my brother was treated like a king . how did your T help you not be so angry at people and so cynical towards people . i just dont know if i could ever get to that point .

[feralkittymom]

Granite, my T didn't try to make me not angry at others--just the opposite. A big part of my depression was probably because I'd only been able to be angry with myself, blame myself. He wanted me to feel the anger, but feel it appropriately and connect it to those who abused me. I didn't typically feel anger toward other people, more often than not, I'd feel hurt and disappointed by their not meeting my inappropriate expectations of them. I see you doing that when you decide you're horrible and deserve no better. Anger at the world in that sense is a distraction from looking at the source of the anger.

Anger at those who abused us isn't a problem--that's righteous anger. But I couldn't feel that as a child, and as my T often reminded me, it wasn't safe to recognize that anger when I was a child because children need adults--they can't survive without the bond to adults, even when that bond is abusive. But as an adult, I could survive experiencing that anger because I could take care of myself. I didn't need inappropriate anger to protect me from pain. Of course, it didn't feel that way--the power of any feeling long suppressed is enormous, and when you've not been allowed to learn how to safely experience feelings as a child, they can feel dangerous and overwhelming. But the bond with my T created that emotional space that made it safe to allow myself to slowly experience the fullness of those dangerous feelings. He provided the protection that I couldn't provide for myself. I had to risk what felt like internal destruction--feeling the anger as connected to those people who were so powerful in my child's mind--while choosing to believe in my T that he would keep me safe. And I didn't need to do it all at once--step by step was fine--he could control the process that I felt was uncontrollable.

Only after that developemental experience, and the experience of being nurtured and validated in a way that was missing as a child, was it possible for me to have an adult relationship to those feelings: not rationalizing them away by deciding everyone is horrible, or that the world is horrible, or that I'm so defective there is no place for me in the world. The anger is, in fact, reasonable and appropriate: people who abuse children should arouse our anger because abusing children is morally wrong and inhumane.

Righteous anger isn't driven by unmet needs, nor vengefulness. It's not generalized to everyone, but targeted to individuals who perpetrate harm. In that sense, anger is an emotion of positive power, rather than negative destruction. What one does with the anger is a conscious choice, rather than an unconscious imperative. Some choose to channel that power into advocacy, some into protecting others in their life, some into expanding their circle of protection, some into becoming their best self, some into forgiveness. I think each person has to find their own way with that.

So it isn't about changing our perspective of the world, though that's a consequence. It's about changing our perspective about ourselves, and that begins with the willingness to share our unfiltered internal life with someone who can support that process of reexperiencing it in order to understand and accept and transform it, so that we are able to live a freely chosen life.