[Mouse_]

I'm sorry I haven't answered anyone's posts here today nor have I read, I just can't seem to focus at the moment. I feel heavy of mind. Even cooking I seem to be doing it by habit rather than thought.

I arrived at T's today, after my leaving early session friday, and couldnt put anything in context, I was all over the place.

I told T I felt she had changed, had become the with-holding therapist, and I felt she was doing something to me, but don't know what, I said I felt she is tricking me.

Then I said I realise that I can't manipulate people to get what I want and if I can't get that I don't want anyone.

T said I am scared, scared that now the illusion has been lost of controlling people to get what I need, that if I have to ask for what I need now, people may not be there or may say no.

I asked her why am I in T now if I cant maniuplate her to get what I want, what do I do now, talk about the weather (I know I am not having a rational thought here) T said I am in T because I need to be and we can talk about how I deal with disappointment and loss??

Driving home I was thinking about why am I going through the stages a toddler goes through? what makes that happen? Then I got feeling memorys of a time when I lost the illusion of fantasy mother before and how bad it was because there really wasn't anything good enought to replace that, taht my experience of being in a relationship where the fantasys come to an end nad reality is supposed to take over, are poor.

that this must have to a lessor degree in all relationships to all people but goes untroubled if their first experience was positive? That they can tolerate the ending of the honeymoon stage?

I eventually looked around T's rooom and said, I can see you and the room but it feels like its gone, that I've lost it.

I said I dont want to mourne, it makes the world feel a lonely cold place.

T said for a while but it passes but if you don't mourne your be stuck in a cold lonely place.

I kept thinking on the way home how this is really important that T is there for me right now, more than any other time, this is where I need to know there are people in this world that are realiable, I dont think I could bear to be doped or let down again.

[Junerain]

For Mouse,

What you feel is real....that honeymoon phase doesn't last forever, then one is left with whatever way one relates in the past, good or bad...your T sounds pretty good, like she tried to reach you even in the state you were in....how are you doing now? Still wishing for more fantasy and less reality? I have a weird relationship with reality myself....it seems to constantly change according to my mood yet of course reality actually stays the same yet it just confuses me sometimes.....my T says I'm actually in reality more than it feels like...my support group calls it dissociation...write us more, k? love junerain

Hey Mouse, sounds like you are having a hard time of it...

I think that ideally the story is meant to go like this:
(I say 'ideally' because nobody's story is ideal, but different people's stories more or less approximate the ideal)

The infant has needs. Most of those needs are met. But there are times when they aren't quite met as needed. The infant needs to cry for a bit because it takes time (a few seconds or minutes) for the mother to get to where the infant is to attend to it. There might be times when the mother can't give the infant what it needs (because it is teething, for example, and the mother can't make the pain go away).

Those little lapses are tolerable because for the most part the infant gets its needs met fairly swiftly. The notion is that because the infant typically gets its needs met the infants neurology develops such that the infant internalises the holding functions of the mother. So... The infant starts to be able to tolerate distress by self soothing and so on because it has had lots of experiences of mother soothing it.

Gradually... Gradually... Through these 'optimal frustrations' the infant develops more and more coping skills. The infants needs develop and grow over time. An infant has fairly basic needs for food and clean diapers and being held. A toddler has more complex needs for exploration and stuff like that. A securely attached infant will leave mothers side to go to explore stuff volountarily. Because it has internalised the mother. Because it has experienced leaving mother then needing mother then mother being there over and over and over. Infants who don't get enough of that can be afraid of leaving mother because they don't trust that when they need mother mother will be there.

All this is by way of saying that individuation isn't meant to be painful. It is meant to be driven by the infants developing desires.

Similarly with your individuation from your therapist it isn't meant to be a painful feeling of her pushing you away. It is meant to be driven by your desire for seperateness and distinctness and part of what makes that process go okay is the trust that your therapist will be there to emotionally hold you when you need her to. But that doesn't at all mean that that is how it feels to you...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the 'controlling people' thing. Is the idea that... If they feel sorry for you then they will help you? I'm not sure what is meant by 'controlling' or 'manipulating' people. Does it mean presenting yourself in a way that you think they need in order to elicit help and care from them? I think I understand that one...

> I got feeling memorys of a time when I lost the illusion of fantasy mother before and how bad it was because there really wasn't anything good enought to replace that, taht my experience of being in a relationship where the fantasys come to an end nad reality is supposed to take over, are poor.

Yeah. That has got to be scary. On the upside... Perfect caretaking isn't possible. Good enough caretaking, on the other hand, is possible. 'Optimal' frustrations are lapses in the perfection of the caretaking, but they are 'optimal' because they aren't overwhelming. Rupture-repair, rupture-repair thats whats meant to lead to structural change (ego-strengthening)...

I don't think I could bear to be let down again, either. That being said... I've said that for a while now... And it does keep happening... At least... I keep interpreting things that way. Maybe its about... Developing the strength through a 'good enough' relationship for a time... Such that... It won't feel this way. Such that I'll be moving on to better things with the internal strength to catch me if I fall.

I don't really know what to say (but that doesn't stop me blabbing on)... (((((Mouse))))) This doesn't mean that you won't have some nice connected experiences with her again. Sounds like part of you wants to individuate but that part of you is so scared. Scared that if you assert yourself then she will leave you.

[Perna]

"I kept thinking on the way home how this is really important that T is there for me right now, more than any other time, this is where I need to know there are people in this world that are realiable, I dont think I could bear to be doped or let down again."

And didn't the knowledge she is there now fill you with wonder? The bad times have rewards too you know. . . clouds with silver linings?

[Mouse_]

Perna, Yes I do keep seeing T sitting there, not going anywhere on one level, but on the other level, I think the level that has already experienced loss, I am confusing T with my original experience of loss of the birth mother and loss of my adoptive mother once told she wasn't my real mother...I also seem to be struggling with loss of the illusion of who I am...and it hurts...its like the ego is dying...all the ways I've survived isnt working...I keep trying to recreate that blissful place again, but it won't work...its like the witch in "bewitched" that use to wriggle her nose and magic happened...I wriggle and nothing, zitch,I am still here with this confusion and fear...I keep telling myself, its already happened and at least this time I've got someone there with me...I guess thats the place I will eventually settle permantly, "its already happened, and T is there with me this time to help me through it"...but at the moment its "where am I, help, I will never feel content and at peace again".

Thanks to all that took the time to read and respond...I need to go lay on my bed and allow the loss to go through me. Geez and to think I pay for this? LOL! gotta laugh or I may cry againnnnnnnnnnn

[pachyderm]

> its like the witch in "bewitched" that use to wriggle her nose and
> magic happened...I wriggle and nothing



Isn't that the way it is in real life...? THAT doesn't get you what you want. Staying in therapy has a better chance, I think.

<--------- I'm not sure what this is... ducking a swinging ball, or something...

[Perna]

{{{Mouse}}}

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