I'm such a baby.

I seriously want to strangle the inner-child.

Tonight in class my professor played this video on Erickson's psychosocial stages. It was actually an animated video, but it was quite brilliant and endearing.

I kept getting triggered by the animated little kid in the video. I mean, really triggered-- was becoming tearful (thankfully no one noticed, lights dimmed). There was this one part in the movie in which they were illustrating autonomy vs. shame and doubt... and the little kid was climbing on the rocking chair and rocking really hard back and forth while sitting on it backwards...and laughing...and the mom had to get the kid off the chair before the kid got hurt... and seriously almost started to cry. I wanted to be a little kid... to just go crazy and rock in the chair really hard and climb on stuff and scream and cry and throw a tantrum.

What is wrong with me? These were %#@&#! cartoon people.

I need help. Seriously.

The little kid inside me has been stirred up more than ever and I wish she would just go away.

And then that whole thing with T telling me how he bought colored pencils for a child he sees.... and how I felt jealous...

In addition, kids have been irritating the hell out of me lately. I was telling T last week... my block is filled with kids... they are always playing outside... I used to come outside and sit with the little girls next door sometimes... they would ask me to bring out the mandalas that I keep for my patients... they wanted to color and talk with me.... now I feel like I could never deal with spending time with any kids.

I am such a stupid, %#@&#! baby.

<font color="green">pink,
I think you are just working through some stuff with your inner child. I find inner child stuff to be very intense, and yes I find myself turning an ugly shade of green at times thinking of her other clients. In fact sometimes I get jealous reading about what other people experience with their therapists!

I think good therapy makes us feel like someone thinks we are special. When we have not experienced that before then it becomes precious to us and we feel like we need to do whatever it takes to keep them thinking that way about us.

In these situations, jealousy is normal. In fact, I think that feeling jealous is a good sign that your therapist is meeting your need. The long term goal is to learn to meet the needs yourself but just like a mom encourages her baby to take its first steps and then stands back and rejoices in the toddler's ability to walk on its own, our therapists hold us until we can do it ourselves.

It is just so blasted hard to allow them to hold us.
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I had a fascinating conversation with friends at dinner tonight.

The proposition was that the reason we all used to take a lot of drugs (recreationally) is that when you are in that state, you are appreciating the things a child does, which is why you are amazed at shapes, colours, textures.

Once you get to the age where you are having kids of your own or your friends are (where we are, they are a bit older than me and have a 3yo and 6mo) ... you get the experience of drugs just from having your children around ... because you just see things through their eyes ... everything becomes wonderful again.

The implication is that society has evolved so that we don't have children at our optimal child-bearing age any longer (late teens / early 20s for women). So we develop alternatives ... which are only resolved once we reach the stage of procreation ourselves.

It may seem that I am digressing from this thread, but the anger at children is just not right ... maybe the anger comes from the biological urge to breed, that other people may divert into other channels (e.g. simulating child-like experiences as some of us have in the past ...).

I love having people around me who think outside the square ... I have never read a therapist comment in here yet that has come close to that level of processing

I had my first child aged 26 and twins aged 31 and still continued to "use" drugs and alcohol.

Can you tell your therapist that you feel jealous of his buying colouring pencils for the kid he is seeing?

I promise you something...

If you find the courage to tell your therapist that...
I'll find the courage to tell my therapist that I feel jealous when he takes time off from seeing me so that he can spend time with his family.

Only catch is... That I couldn't possibly say it in person... I'd much prefer to say it by way of email... Only... I could drink a little and tell him in person ;-) If you tell him... I promise that to you.

It is hard, huh. I... Still feel like a kid (or feel like my kid needs haven't been adequately met) in a number of respects. I wish... Well, part of me wishes... That I could be that age again but this time in a responsive environment. It would be so much more fun (and so much less painful) in a responsive environment.

Sigh. I guess we will just have to enact it now ;-)

And... Enjoy ourselves... And not beat ourselves up for needing that... Well... As much as we possibly can at any rate...

With respect to the 'optimal age' to parent I think that that is changing... If you go back in evolutionary history there never used to be this thing called 'adolescence'. Adolescence is basically a fairly recent invention. Back whenever... People were men when they went on their first hunt. And women were women when they menstruated for the first time. A clear division betweeen childhood and adulthood and no in between state. (Which is partly why it is culturally insensitive for us to lament 14 year old girls who were menstruating marrying and 15 year old boys making a kill doing similarly). To consider that 'abuse' is to impose our present values back in the past.

In the past the 'optimal' age for giving birth was in adolescence. That is 'biologically' the most sensible time. Less mortality at that point etc etc. But now... Enculturation is the most importantly different thing between human beings and other animals. Human beings have a protracted period of learning before they are granted the rights and responsibilities of adult status. Some people spend... 20 years at school... They are 35 or maybe even 40 when they have the financial security to be able to invest well in their offspring. I mean lets face it our ancestors (in evolutionary time) didn't need to worry about the virtues (timewise) of disposable nappies or the virtues (quality wise) of investing in formal education (for 20 years or so) for their offspring.

Financial security is an interesting notion... In countries where infant mortality is high (and where mortality is high more generally) and where people aren't able to invest in pensions and superannuation etc then people tend to have 12 or 13 or 15 children. How come? Because your children are your financial security in your old age (they will look after you). Hence... The high birth rates in traditional cultures (Samoan, Fijian etc). They are more closely related to subsistence living...

When you have a well developed economy... People start thinking about how much disposable nappies and a private school education is going to cost. People have less children as a consequence (heck they have their own savings plus a super scheme) so they aren't relying on their children to look after them in old age (hell their children are more likely to put them in an institution). Children are considered more of an investment with less benefits. People thus tend to wait until they are financially secure (getting later and later all the time). Have children at a later age (getting later and later all the time). Heck, people are hitting menopause later (also hitting reproductive age latter) and also hitting death later. We have the luxury of 'extended childhoods' (adolescence) which is a recent invention. Past peoples haven't had that 'luxury' but they also haven't had the problems with dealing with being at some mid-way point either. The existential and identity anxiety that goes with that.

'For all our present ills I'd rather be living as we do now than as the caveman lived' (a student)
Wittgenstein: 'Yes, of course you would. But would the caveman???'

What do you need to be 'successful' in this present environment? People are less likely to hit that at 16 or at 20 or at 30 even. Hence... People need to invest more in their offspring in order to give their offspring a chance to hit success in life. Not like the olden days where your boy might prove himself a worthy hunter at 14 (and able to well support a wife) or where a girl might be valued at first menstruation. These days... It takes much much longer... More of an investment.

Kids who give birth to kids who give birth to kids are more likely to struggle closer to subsistence.

People who wait... And invest heavily... Are likely to have kids who do similarly.

This is controversial to be sure:

In conservation ecology what is the optimal prevalence of homo sapiens?

We think we can determine the fate of OTHER species but how about monitoring (and caring) more adequately for our own?

One way the future could go...
Perhaps...

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pinksoil said:
I seriously want to strangle the inner-child.

In addition, kids have been irritating the hell out of me lately. I was telling T last week... my block is filled with kids... they are always playing outside... I used to come outside and sit with the little girls next door sometimes... they would ask me to bring out the mandalas that I keep for my patients... they wanted to color and talk with me.... now I feel like I could never deal with spending time with any kids.

I am such a stupid, %#@&#! baby.

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I can really relate to these feelings, pinksoil...only, I struggle at times with my OWN children (2 & 5 yrs). As much as I absolutely LOVE and ADORE them, it's really hard to let loose at times and enjoy them.

For those of us who were essentially robbed of our childhood, I think it's only natural to have a level of jealousy for the innocence of those who do have that opportunity.

You are not stupid in any way.

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Divaluscious said:

The implication is that society has evolved so that we don't have children at our optimal child-bearing age any longer (late teens / early 20s for women). So we develop alternatives ... which are only resolved once we reach the stage of procreation ourselves.

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This makes it seem as though one can't resolve certain issues until she has children. Our society has evolved not only so that we don't have to have children at our child-bearing age, but we don't have to have children at all and we can still lead productive, fulfilling lives. I am 26 and have no plans for having children. I don't know if that will change at some point, but for now, there are things that are a lot more important to me.

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but the anger at children is just not right ... maybe the anger comes from the biological urge to breed, that other people may divert into other channels (e.g. simulating child-like experiences as some of us have in the past ...).

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I don't think that the anger is not right... if I'm feeling it, it's right to me. I just don't believe feelings can be right or wrong. It's not like I'm going around terrorizing little children, lol. I have something going on within me now and like I said... lately kids irritate the hell out of me as a result of that.

As far as the drug thing, I really can't comment because I never took drugs besides smoking pot a few times in high school. I actually have the ability to appreciate things on a very genuine level, sometimes like that of a child.... my husband laughs at me sometimes and says that when I go out somewhere sometimes I look like a little kid in a museum... a lot of it comes from spending so much time in a state of anxiety and/or depression-- spending so much time seeing dark that when I do see light and color, I can see it even brighter and more intense... to see things more open and beautifully.... sometimes with a childlike quality.... When you spend a lot of time in the absence of something.... and when whatever it is comes back into your life, even for just a little while... whether it's laughter, the ability to go out and look at art, to wander around the city, etc.... you can experience it so much more beautifully... and that's one of the reasons that I appreciate who I am with my intense, crazy moods... and while it would be nice to get better and a bit more stable, I would never want to change who I am.

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alexandra_k said:
Can you tell your therapist that you feel jealous of his buying colouring pencils for the kid he is seeing?

I promise you something...

If you find the courage to tell your therapist that...
I'll find the courage to tell my therapist that I feel jealous when he takes time off from seeing me so that he can spend time with his family.

Only catch is... That I couldn't possibly say it in person... I'd much prefer to say it by way of email... Only... I could drink a little and tell him in person ;-) If you tell him... I promise that to you.

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It is a deal. I will tell him, on Friday's session, about feeling jealous of the colored pencil kid. And you tell your T about feeling jealous about him taking time off to spend time w/ his family. I will do it in person, you will do it by email. It's how we feel comfortable.

I promise.

Hmmm my point has been missed.

It is not saying you 'have' to have children to stop childish feelings and behaviours. It is saying that it can settle some people down ... those who are prone to some of those feelings.

Other things help other people mature - it is very individualistic.

Just one factor, and I find it fascinating to consider different facets of behaviours and responses

When my son was young and I was watching him learn about the world and how it works, it was so interesting. Sometimes when explaining or showing him about something it was as if was seeing it for the first time too. "How does that seed make a flower?" "Why is she crying?" questions require slowing things down, taking them apart, analyzing them so they can be introduced and explained.

And sometimes there was a mutual meeting of needs, I can see now. I wouldn't have noticed it then when it was happening. I think that when we sat and rocked, when I sang to him, got down and played on the floor with him...my needs for affection, intimacy, play were also being met.

When he needed me for comfort and reassurance I truly realized that those are valid needs; real and fulfillable. At the same Iime I wanted to fulfill those needs for my son, I felt my own longings and resentment for not having had what I needed when I needed it. I suspect that might be similar to what pink experienced watching the Erikson video.

I learned a lot camping last weekend with my grandchildren 24/7 and their father. It was fun too when my stepson quoted his own father (my husband) and told a story about when my stepson was a boy and how my husband had "solved" a behavior problem similar to the one the granddaughter was having now. I could see my husband had been a good father and my stepson was "practicing" what he had learned as a child about fathering.

When my aunt told me what I was like at 2 and 3 years old many things clicked for me. I could tell the stories were true because I could feel the rightness of them. I would have behaved that way, done those things, felt the way that was implied. I connected with that earlier self and that strengthened the present me, gave me "roots" of my own. She also told stories of her and my father's childhood and the family lore. I study genealogy because I learn about other family members and can get patterns of behavior/traits over 200+ years and identify with some of them too, know which particular part of the forest I belong in and why I'm attracted to "this" great grandmother and not the other, etc. One of my cats is named after my great grandmother who died 10+ years before I was born. What the heck is that?

When I get urges to certain behavior, am attracted to what I see or read, I often pay attention and "follow" the image/attraction. Pink, after class I would have gone out and found me a rocking chair or rocking chair substitute (for me, playground swings) and spent awhile seeing what "happened". Or, I might have found crayons of my own and drawn a picture for my T (or myself). Until I was in my 40s (I think was the last time) I occasionally use to buy crayons and a coloring book and pretend I was at coloring "school" :-) One had assignments (from the coloring book text) and had to only outline, only use one color, or not go out of the lines, or freestyle, etc. and I think I even had imaginary, competitive fellow students :-) I think it is not so much that you want these things such that you would kill your inner child, as what they can tell you about yourself if you look at them head on (like we're supposed to look at everything in therapy). I started grabbing all unconscious impulses/thoughts and treating them as I do dreams and I find them less "obnoxious" that way, less undesirable to my rational self. Get curious as to how the images could make you feel like crying instead of that they made you feel like crying. Fighting against one's self, pushing away and biting, kicking and pushing the inner child down doesn't get one anywhere, the inner child, being us, is just as ornery and resilient as we are and will pop up again! It doesn't matter that they "appear" all sad and fragile, they can cry you a river and drown you if they need to get you to pay attention to them. It is only taking them "seriously" and letting them help one by analyzing their images and sitting with them, etc. just as one would a "normal" T :-) that things get better/interesting. Yes, you are such a baby. . . and I mean that in the most flattering/positive way :-)