In reading some posts recently, I was reminded of how my T pathologized so much about me. Now I'm much better but find myself arguing in my mind with him about how something pathological is instead ok.

People always say the client is supposed to internalize the T. But I am internalizing disagreement.

It really harmed my self-esteem. It's not that I wasn't aware of these things before T. I wonder if accepting them is better than trying to 'rid' myself of them.

*Pathologizing and trying to change someone shows you don't accept them as they are. While supporting someone by believing in them, encouraging them, or showing them their strengths demonstrates care and acceptance.*

I was also thinking of a Ts blog post entry:

“I understand, Beth, that it’s very difficult to give up on wanting the love and caretaking you never had, but there’s no way to get that kind of caretaking as an adult. It doesn’t mean you can’t be loved and cherished, but you can’t go back to being the child and, in the end, it does feel much better to have confidence in your ability to take care of your adult self.”

Why give up love and caretaking needs? Of course if they are unrealistic. But why not find a partner who leans more on the caretaking side?

For example, I have a need for protection. I've dated protective men in the past and think I can be satisfied with that scenario. In reality, everyone would have a perfect sense of self, unwavered by the influences of others. But that's not going to happen. Especially if one's partner hasn't gone to therapy and dealt with their past.

I don't think people's needs and longings go away, at least not for some of us. We just accept them and learn to deal with them better. but why not turn them around and use them as strengths, or as a platform from which to build a positive strategy, like I mentioned above?

[feileacan]

My experience/understanding about these things is a bit different.

For instance, taking the same example about a wish to be taken care of. One could ask why is it necessary to get rid of it? Sure, no one can force anyone to get rid of anything.
But my understanding is that as long as you wish for things that are impossible you are unable to accept and enjoy things that are possible.

You propose that there is not need to get rid of these needs and find a partner that sort of satisfies those needs. According to my understanding, if you are able to do that and are able to enjoy and take pleasure you your partner's caretaking (which inevitably is still limited) then you already have given up the wishes for impossible. Because if you weren't then you would not be able to accept and enjoy the limited care of your partner.

According to my understanding, the cited quote talks about such wishes and wants that makes impossible taking pleasure and experiencing enjoyment from things that are realistically possible. I'm not theorising here - these questions are very relevant to me and I struggle with them daily.

Sure, I wasn't referring to impossible wishes. Not sure if you saw where I said I wasn't referring to unrealistic needs. But how do you know the clients wish to be taken care of was impossible? Maybe she has that need to a healthy degree. Why pathologize it?

In thinking of other examples--I really like to be physical and like a lot of affection and sex with my partner. Obviously this stuff manifested in therapy. I talked about it with my T to a certain extent but he sort of made the sexual feelings 'go away'. At no time did I want to have sex with him realistically, but I did enjoy the feelings.

Instead of acting like the feelings were pathological, what what have been helpful for me was for my T to accept that part of me. We'd explore the needs and then I'd come to a place where I was comfortable with the needs and myself for having them. Afterwards, in relationships, I can accept that I am a very physical person. That knowledge about myself would help me in choosing a partner, anticipating dealing with the needs, etc., Does that make sense?

I guess what is bothering me is the issue I had with my T 'putting me in a box', so to speak. I was in therapy before him for several years; therapy that was helpful and gave me the self understanding I needed. And despite all my issues that remain, I feel I am competent and well grounded in reality. I tried to tell my T that just because I have sexual feelings for him, doesn't mean I see him unrealistically, want to have sex with him. They just manifested in the transference, but I feel like I could separate the wishes from reality.

[feileacan]

I think that sometimes it can be really difficult to differentiate between realistic and impossible wishes. I guess this difference is never really expressed explicitly in words. And it is really difficult for people not involved to judge without proper context what's really going on. For instance, we you take the cited quotation out of context then it might really seems that the therapist wants the client to give up something unreasonably. But if the reality is that the client can't really enjoy any of the real life relationships then it is likely that in the background there is some kind of impossible wish that makes accepting possible things impossible.

Now what you describe about your own experience seems a completely different issue to me. I see no reason for a therapist not accepting the clients sexual feelings and wanting to get rid of them other than being unprofessional. I'm sorry that your T was like that. I've said and written all sorts of crazy things to my T, some of my fantasies have been so disgusting that have horrified me a great deal. Never has he taken those things as something that I would really want. Rather he has always taken them as feelings/fantasies emerging from somewhere to be explored.

I think in your circumstances it very much makes sense to internalise disagreement with that T, assuming that he wanted you to get rid of some parts of yourself. I see nothing wrong or bad you having sexual feelings for him and I'm sorry that he was not willing to accept that part of you and explore the meaning of those feelings for you.

Well that's a fake blog post anyway, not that it still can't be discussed....Thanks for saying that about my Ts reaction to sexual feelings. He could talk about it to some extent unlike some Ts and generally says anything is ok to talk about, but there were some issues that I don't want to get into right now. The effect was my feelings of affection for him seemed rejected. And it wasn't because he didn't reciprocate; there were certain behaviors from his end...

So going back to examples.

There was a breaking point in my therapy where I 'couldn't take it anymore'. He did old school psychoanalytic, withholding all my needs. In that process, they were pathologized. Anyway, my T said my anger pushed him away from me. I recognized my anger, why it happened, but also wanted him to acknowledge his role (he did not) outside of the transference. Also, I read here that you bring your stuff to the T relationships, behaviors that you already have will manifest in the therapy. etc

Where before I would hate myself for my behavior when angry; self-loathe. I still do to some extent but it's changed. Now I am arguing with him inside my head; defending myself. In my head, he is saying I was causing the relational problems, bringing it upon myself. We focused on that for ages.

But then I realized just recently, that my employer sees me as someone good with conflict. I am known as the people person, leadership skills, etc. If I was so terrible with relationships, how could I have these contradictory experiences?

So the arguing in my head is my saying to him, in response to his blaming me for all relational issues--leadership at work gave me x, y, z assignments/roles due to my interpersonal skills. Then I think about how this is a pattern over the years--being a person with good interpersonal skills. It feels like the therapy relationship brought out the excessive anger, which by the way, I am still struggling with managing.

So WTF. Anyone else argue with their T like this in their mind?

[feileacan]

I realise that it may sound cynical but in some sense it seems good that you have been able to direct your anger from yourself towards him.

I've also struggled to find my anger and for a long time it was quite intolerable during sessions - at this time I was acting out a lot during my sessions. I still get angry in sessions and don't want to admit it. I still hate that he is able to tolerate my anger and is not destroyed by it (what's the point of getting angry and expressing it when it doesn't destroy the other person?!?). It makes me feel (think?) that my anger is still powerless and should have more strength so that it would really have an effect on him. On the other hand I understand how stupid all these thoughts are and how lucky I've been that he has been able to take and absorb it all without needing to retaliate or pathologize me.

I don't know about other people's experiences but I have found excessive anger difficult to manage, even with the help of a good T. I can only imagine how difficult it can be to struggle with it alone feeling that the T himself contributed at least partially to that anger and to the fact that you are left alone to process it.