Couch 158: The Newberry Couch!

He created this situation by his mixed boundaries. He needs to deal with it.

LT, I'm sorry MC missed the mark so badly. I'm glad you have Dr. T to work through it with. You were talking about attachment in the other thread, and it's interesting to me that you seem to already be heading toward a secure attachment with Dr. T. I can't remember exactly what you said, but it was something along the lines of "I know he would make time for me with an extra session if I needed one." To me, that's the essence of secure attachment. He's there, he cares, and he takes your feelings seriously. As he becomes a secure base for you, you will slowly feel less and less of a need to keep checking that he's there, which will make it easier for you to "do the work" in therapy.

I don't know enough about your past to speculate too much, but I will say that I had a relationship with a mentor person who was super inconsistent in her caring. Sometimes she would be so kind and wonderful, and sometimes she would straight-up ignore me. (My T uses the word "ambivalent" to describe her.) I didn't really see it until my T pointed it out, but I think I felt so drawn to the mentor person because that's sort of how my mom was, very push-pull. Her unpredictability had a catnip quality to my brain. It kept pulling me back. It has taken a lot of time and work to see that the good, stable, supportive, consistent people in my life are not actually as boring as I initially thought they were. This has made it easier to have better, deeper relationships with people who have the emotional reserves to be good to me (nearly all the time!).

Anyway, I think the tl;dr version of that is that maybe this unpleasantness with MC will be the catalyst that pushes some of your intensity and emotional energy into Dr. T's court, where he can actually help you harness it in a productive way.

He didn’t have to call LT back, did he?

He’s allowed this train (no offense, LT) to run amok without brakes for what, two years now? More? Seems like it was already going on when I joined PC.

All the while still responding to LT, reassuring her, constant it’s OK’s, etc.?

And now he slams on the brakes? In the wishiest-washiest way possible?

Yeah, for MC here.

Uh, no, this was him responding to something from Wed. that I was trying to folow up on because our session is tomorrow, and I wanted to know if he'd bring up that topic or now. He misunderstood something in his text to me, I corrected him on it, then he was a **** to me over text, so I was a ***** back. Then he called, said he only had 2 minutes, and he was going to do all the talking. Which...WTF??? Then he tried to act like he was the king of boundaries on the call, so I had to call him on that. Like he was acting as though he'd never had other phone calls with me, when there have probably been like...I don't know, 20-30 over the past few years? Like he was trying to gaslight me basically.

If he was with his girlfriend (doubtful, wife has been dead less than a year, but you never know), you know what? He could have chosen not to engage with me. He could have not called. Or he could have called, said he had to go, and we'd talk tomorrow. He chose to stay on the phone--that was his choice.

Where's his respect for me? It's up to the T to hold the boundaries and hold in their emotions (which he seemed to be mightily struggling with)--not the client.

Yeah but how? Im seeing it like, when a patient makes a sui attempt, they dont let them go back to the same dr, because obviously whatever that dr / t / whoever was doing, wasnt working, so dont throw good money after bad.

Rather than try to break entrenched old patterns, start anew?

Thanks, @@! It's been going on a long time... I don't know that MC totally understands the effect of what he's doing. Or that he's even aware he's doing it...

Yeah, No. 3 bears some similarities to MC.

Ignorance of the law excuses no one. Besides he would have to be thicker than a plank embedded in a rock not to at least wonder if he might not be contributing to the situation, especially after chats with T1 and 2.

If my t calls and says he only has two minutes, why would i argue with him? I dont get it. Hes not my boyfriend. Even if it WERE my boyfriend, why would i argue with him? I would show him the same respect i would want to be shown.

Eta - it kinda bothers me that you have no compunction about freely admitting that you are mean to him. Like it means nothing. Hes just a punching bag. Well, a lot of people here see their ts that way. Its a trumpian world now. Beat up on the guy next to you, its his fault.

I think LT has made some pretty impressive steps towards breaking out of this dynamic by choosing to see a different T. At this point I don't think MC is doing his job at all but that's on him. It's not easy to just walk away from somebody you're attached to.
He is the one who is responsible for keeping his part of the bargain and being a marriage counsellor. That's the point really.

I don’t think LT argued over the two minutes by her description.

If your T called you and said, “I only have two minutes, so I’m going to do all the talking,” would that be respectful in your book?

It defeats the purpose of calling a client.

Just a technical point here -- I've never heard of this rule that you can't go back to the same T after attempting to off yourself?

Both current T and former T have clients who repeatedly attempted it but then came right back -- from what I understand, that's pretty much the norm.

Isnt that by definition setting boundaries? "I have two minutes - listen, dont talk."

I had this problem when i was getting evaluated by the SSDI psychiatrist - he finally said, if you cant stop extrapolating, just effing answer my questions, i am going to have to stop the interview. Boundary problems!

He tries to set the TINIEST boundary, and everybody here criticizes him for it? Then you all criticize him again for not holding boundaries? Damned if he does, and damned if he doesnt!

Eta - i was asking a bona fide question, why would i argue with him. I didnt mean to imply lt argued with her t about the two minutes. But i did infer that she objected to the limit, as she wrote wtf. Perhaps i should have asked, why would i object?

People were coming on here and reporting that it was happening to them. Maybe its more if your t is not private? Idk.

i think maybe it's that he picked a crappy way to do it, to start setting boundaries, over the phone. y'know? that would have been much better done in person, imho.

I am all for boundaries and separation and so on -but this guys timing and his lack of discussion with the client about it is what I see as all wrong. He ****ed up all along and then suddenly, without warning, tries to change the rules. So yes - he screwed up. They don't just get to unilaterally and without warning change the rules. He is being an authoritarian asshole. Don't call back or discuss that you are going to have to change how outside contact is handled - but the way he did it was jerkish.

Una -- I'd respectfully disagree. I don't know how LT feels about this specific point and so, I'll just say what I think.

The 2-minutes-can't-talk sounds less like a boundary and more like an imperial decree.

Especially when the client in this case is rather distressed and has explicitly asked to speak because she's distressed.

A boundary would've been like "Hey, I have only a couple of minutes. I know there's lots to say and we can't do justice to this topic in that time. I know you're scheduled to see me tomorrow. Can we figure out something that'll work all around time-wise? My schedule looks like x, y, z before your session / after your session etc etc".

That's being respectful and treating someone like an adult and with care and respect for what was just shared.

Idk - we do it here all the time. Somebody posts, "hey i dont have time to respond fully right now, but i wanted to let you know."

We're allowed to have a life!

Then i would say, the 20-30 previous phone calls should carry some weight that this person USUALLY is VERY generous with their time, and that the one instance that they are SHORT on time shouldnt negate all the goodwill theyve built up.

Where is the "relationship"? Even a mouse would remember that they usually get cheese from this maze!

But I think the bar is a little higher for a T. I'm doing my best to be nice and supportive here, on my own time. My T does it for me professionally. If she wants all of my intense, conflicted feelings, then I expect her to slide on the kid gloves when she handles them. If she says it's okay to contact her outside session, then it really better be okay. If she's going to change the rules, she needs to do it thoughtfully and carefully and make a ton of space for me to tell her exactly how I feel about her new rules. And I can guarantee that that would take much, much longer than two minutes!

I'm sorry but no, that remotely doesn't apply -- the context is so very different that it doesn't at all hold up. No one here, I hope has their therapist posting here and second, experiencing severe transference towards other posters and third, expecting a response from a very specific poster about something related to their relationship and.......do I need to go on, really?

Like I said, I don't think the issue that he needed to leave in 2 minutes was the problem -- at least to me, that wouldn't have been the issue.

Setting boundaries -- even under emotionally fraught situations -- doesn't have to equal not adhering to a modicum of care and respect in general (not just a standard to apply to therapists).

My read on this LT is that MC is perhaps feeling "supervised" by new T, or drawn back into the world of the frame and either feeling scrutinized or scrutinizing himself, and speaking defensively to you(?) .

I don't see hiring a therapist as having anything to do with a relationship or good will.

But I don't see the problem as being that the therapist had only a short amount of time to talk - I see it as his attitude when he called (taking what the poster said as true) and his telling the client they had to cut back on outside contact on the phone and with only a short period of time to talk. That is where he ****ed up in my opinion.

There are any number of ways I see this whole situation as being ****ed up with this therapist and the second therapist and so on, but in this instance - the marriage counselor - who seems to completely forget or abdicate in most instances that have been described, what his job was supposed to be - suddenly and without warning decided to change the rules.

I sort of get the sense that we're talking about very different things here.

Again, the lack of time -- at least to me -- wouldn't have been the issue.

It's how he handled everything AFTER a momentous disclosure was made -- that to me shows the crux of the "relationship".

But, I'll stop commenting right about here because I think I'm dangerously coming close to speaking for LT (if I haven't already done so!).

I think LT also said she sent this email a few days ago. If he didn't have time right now, why did he call back now? Has he not had twenty minutes free over the last several days? Or could he not say, "I have twenty minutes to talk to you a week from next Tuesday, so is it okay to table it until then?"

I sometimes have to wait several hours when I need to talk to my T on the phone. I get that she has a life and other clients. But when I need something from her that she has promised to deliver, then I really do need her to come through for me.

Letting the t define the boundaries means he has the control, not us. I think that is operative here.