[rainbow8]

I asked my T if anyone was sick in her family that she was distracted last week. She said "no." I said I had to pay $100 for her being distracted. Maybe I shouldn't have to pay. She said something about being human and it happens, but she offered to give me my check back. I refused because I thought maybe I was wrong. She also reminded me that her fee is $160 or $165 now( I forgot which) but we have an agreement even though she knows I can pay more. (True. I told her about my finances)

So, I could have gotten my $100 back but the truth is, I don't think any session is worth that much. I told her most people have insurance but she said they don't. They pay her $160.

I'm feeling crummy because of my health and other stuff. T thinks I shouldn't do something I'm doing but I feel like a failure if I don't. Sorry it's about other people so I'm not going to post about the situation I'm in. Maybe I would say in a PM but not sure.

But, for this thread: do you think I should have taken my check back? T was perfectly willing but she didn't offer first so I feel it's not quite right for me to do it.

Since she is already giving you a regular reduced rate, I would give her some grace.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by estellanomore

Since she is already giving you a regular reduced rate, I would give her some grace.

That's what my reasonable mind is telling me. She's a good T but my emotional mind says she charges too much anyway! I know it's her right to charge whatever she wants. I just get angry about it and I know it's my stuff.

[LonesomeTonight]

Personally, I wouldn't take it back. I mean...it would have been tempting to have not paid MC today since the session was basically repairing a rupture, but...

Out of curiosity, do you have health insurance? If so, depending on what you have, some offer out-of-network benefits. Like my T and MC are out of network, we pay full amount up front, then insurance reimburses 60% of that. So they get their full fee, we just don't have to pay all of it. (It helps that H works for a health insurance company...)

Incidentally, current T and MC are both $175. Ex-T was charging me her earlier rate of $130, but now charges $150. They're all located in a pretty expensive area though (I live nearby in a considerably less expensive area!).

Well, since she offered it, maybe try to withdraw the check and see how you feel about it with time. Satisfied? Empowered? Guilty? Ambivalent? Perhaps "acting this out" might generate good material to discuss with her later.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Personally, I wouldn't take it back.

Out of curiosity, do you have health insurance? If so, depending on what you have, some offer out-of-network benefits. Like my T and MC are out of network, we pay full amount up front, then insurance reimburses 60% of that. So they get their full fee, we just don't have to pay all of it. (It helps that H works for a health insurance company...)

Unfortunately, I'm on Medicare due to my age and T doesn't take it. When I had insurance, I paid her about $25/ session. It's not that I can't pay the $100. Maybe it's because I used to pay so little. It makes me feel unimportant that T was distracted. I think it's more about that than the money.

I told her about my visualization ( see MessyD's thread) and that I didn't love her, that I loved my mother and I miss her. I didn't cry, of course, and it wasn't dramatic, just sad. We talked about my being the age at which my Mom died now, and how sad I feel that I didn't tell her I loved her when she was sick!! Somehow that ties in with resenting T being distracted. Yeah, T is not my mother. The whole thing is crummy.

[stopdog]

I would think the therapist would give you a free appointment. Not so much take the check back, but not pay for the next one. I would not feel guilty for doing it - I think the therapist should feel guilty for taking money and not performing.

[atisketatasket]

Payment is an important boundary in therapy. I don’t actually think she should have offered.

I have in fact gotten free sessions from No. 3. Once, it was a session intended to repair a colossal mistake she made, way way way beyond her being distracted. The rest were just, she didn’t charge for things she could have like extending session time. I offered a few times and got rebuffed, so I stopped. But I wish I had paid regardless because it would have stopped that relationship from getting so messy. If I had the resources, I would pay her back, because I think that would help me feel better about that relationship. I might still someday.

I think in an ideal world therapy fees (and lots of other professional fees) should be tied to the success of each session (donation-based, with a minimum donation). But in this world therapists and clients have a contract, like with other professionals. Lawyers generally charge whether they successfully defend a client or not. Doctors charge whether patients get better or not. Mere distraction to me doesn’t rate anything other than an apology and a commitment to try not to let it happen again.

[stopdog]

The difference to me is that the therapist is being paid to pay attention to the client - that is their one job. That is it. They don't do anything else. So not paying attention is failing at their job.

You pay a lawyer to represent you - not to win your case - no lawyer with even a quarter brain promises to win
You pay an md to try and treat a condition - not always to fix it so it goes away and never returns.

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

I think payment for service like therapy is paying for the time spent in the office. If she spent the time with you, you owe her the money. Out at breakfast the other morning they messed up my omelet (forgot to omit the tomatoes and add the spinach). I told my server about it but specifically said I wasn't looking for a reduced fee. I got one anyway. I think when clients make complaints, T's take action. Once my T missed a session, and she gave me a free co pay at the next one. Not necessary but appreciated. Obviously it wasn't only about the money for you or you'd have taken the check.

I think it's perfectly fine to complain to your T about anything that isn't right for you. But to move forward, I wonder if it might be useful for you to spend some time discussion what this is really about. Why don't you pay her full fee if you can afford it? Why do you think she shouldn't be paid more? What does this say about how you value time from your therapist and/or other people?

It seems to me that you often say something about how you are treated by other people, family, friends, and your T. Like it is never enough for you. Is that something to work on? I think the money issue is just standing in front of something larger.

[healinginprogress]

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

I think payment for service like therapy is paying for the time spent in the office. If she spent the time with you, you owe her the money. Out at breakfast the other morning they messed up my omelet (forgot to omit the tomatoes and add the spinach). I told my server about it but specifically said I wasn't looking for a reduced fee. I got one anyway. I think when clients make complaints, T's take action. Once my T missed a session, and she gave me a free co pay at the next one. Not necessary but appreciated. Obviously it wasn't only about the money for you or you'd have taken the check.

I think it's perfectly fine to complain to your T about anything that isn't right for you. But to move forward, I wonder if it might be useful for you to spend some time discussion what this is really about. Why don't you pay her full fee if you can afford it? Why do you think she shouldn't be paid more? What does this say about how you value time from your therapist and/or other people?

It seems to me that you often say something about how you are treated by other people, family, friends, and your T. Like it is never enough for you. Is that something to work on? I think the money issue is just standing in front of something larger.

I really think this is spot on. I agree that it doesn't seem like it's about the money at all.

[stopdog]

I have always felt that the only use I had for the woman was renting the space from her. But most of the time when I say that others exclaim oh no the therapist does somethings. Here, in this case, the therapist failed to do the minimal something they’re supposed to do And that they constantly give them some credit for doing. I don’t think there’s any defense of this therapist in this instance

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

I think payment for service like therapy is paying for the time spent in the office. If she spent the time with you, you owe her the money. Out at breakfast the other morning they messed up my omelet (forgot to omit the tomatoes and add the spinach). I told my server about it but specifically said I wasn't looking for a reduced fee. I got one anyway. I think when clients make complaints, T's take action. Once my T missed a session, and she gave me a free co pay at the next one. Not necessary but appreciated. Obviously it wasn't only about the money for you or you'd have taken the check.

I think it's perfectly fine to complain to your T about anything that isn't right for you. But to move forward, I wonder if it might be useful for you to spend some time discussion what this is really about. Why don't you pay her full fee if you can afford it? Why do you think she shouldn't be paid more? What does this say about how you value time from your therapist and/or other people?

It seems to me that you often say something about how you are treated by other people, family, friends, and your T. Like it is never enough for you. Is that something to work on? I think the money issue is just standing in front of something larger.

I disagree. If I have a contractor come to my house to do work - and they're having an "off" day and don't do the work (or do it incorrectly), I'm certainly not going to pay them. I'd probably give them a second chance to make it right...and I would hope that they would offer to do so.

That said, I had a session with therapist who was clearly distracted. I called her on it and she admitted she had been totally distracted and apologized (but didn't offer any other reparation). We were doing full on trauma work and it wasn't the first time something like this had happened and I was paying her full fee out-of-pocket. Based on this, I decided the cost-benefit of working with her wasn't worth it.

[fille_folle]

I would worry about T resenting me if I was paying a reduced rate when she knew I could afford the full one, and then suggested that I shouldn't even have to pay that. Accepting a reduced rate when there isn't financial necessity sends the message that you value her less than her other clients. I definitely wouldn't want to distinguish myself that way.

[ruh roh]

Although I hire my therapist to help me with certain things and, of course, to be present during my hour, I am not a lump of clay waiting for her to make me into something or make me feel good/loved/valued. It's not all on her. What I do with the hour is also of value.

So in your case, while your therapist screwed up, what did you do with that session? And by that I mean, not while you were in the room but afterward, now even? It's all material, if you want to use it. Because even if each one of us had a therapist check out during a session, we would have different responses, different issues emerge as a result. And that's of value, for those who use therapy to gain insight into their interactions, feelings, and behavior--and I realize that not everyone uses therapy in that way. If you're fine with yourself, and are just paying someone to hang on every word you say, then yeah...get your money back for that session. But if any of this is giving you insight into yourself, then maybe there was some worth in the session. It doesn't always have to be of benefit during the time in the therapy room. There is stuff of value to mine afterward. At least, that's how I approach my therapy.

[growlycat]

Yeah she should not have offered, it opens up a can of worms. You are right to pay her. I don’t think she should work for free.

[stopdog]

She didn't do her work at that appointment. No one is asking the therapist to work for free. But if she can't even manage the appearance of paying attention, then she was not working. She was sitting there getting paid to worry about her own problems. Which is not the way the set up works.

The woman had her dog at an appointment one time - and was completely distracted by said dog. The woman, at the time, even admitted it and offered the next appointment for free. I took her up on it.

[itisnt]

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

I think payment for service like therapy is paying for the time spent in the office. If she spent the time with you, you owe her the money. Out at breakfast the other morning they messed up my omelet (forgot to omit the tomatoes and add the spinach). I told my server about it but specifically said I wasn't looking for a reduced fee. I got one anyway. I think when clients make complaints, T's take action. Once my T missed a session, and she gave me a free co pay at the next one. Not necessary but appreciated. Obviously it wasn't only about the money for you or you'd have taken the check.

I think it's perfectly fine to complain to your T about anything that isn't right for you. But to move forward, I wonder if it might be useful for you to spend some time discussion what this is really about. Why don't you pay her full fee if you can afford it? Why do you think she shouldn't be paid more? What does this say about how you value time from your therapist and/or other people?

It seems to me that you often say something about how you are treated by other people, family, friends, and your T. Like it is never enough for you. Is that something to work on? I think the money issue is just standing in front of something larger.

I really like this response. I too believe that it is perfectly acceptable and important for clients to express their displeasure with how things go in session with their T. Often, I think that T's make a client's complaints about the client rather than owning up to their mistakes or miss steps. Unpleasant and unhelpful in my opinion. I think that if your T admits that she's only human and isn't always present, then she's admitting that she messed up in session. Instead of offering to let you take back your check, at your next session, she should just smile and say, "No charge. This one is on me." You're a long term client and she can pay it forward by admitting that she wasn't totally present and now she's making it right. I sure wish more T's realized this. They are responsible for being totally there ALL the time. Yes, that's hard, but it is their JOB!

[Wonderfalls]

Two things: I've always given my all to any job I've had but I still have had off days and I'm sure all of us do. I never asked my company to take it out of my salary.

The few times my therapist was sub par I figured he was distracted or tired or even bored--we can't all be scintillating patients all the time. I figured he made it up on off-session contact.

[feileacan]

I will state my opinion although you may not like it. I will write it anyway, feel free to ignore it.

From reading your other posts I've got an opinion that you have some issues around money. If I remember correctly then the theme whether your T is worth the money you pay her as been constantly on your mind. So, in that sense there's no wonder you are contemplating the issue of taking back the check - considering the whole context it seems perfectly natural and normal.

What I find alarming though is that your T does not charge you her full fee although you both know that you can afford it. And moreover, she was offering to give you back the check for the time and service she had already dedicated to you! I don't know what it means but somehow it seems that she is subconsciously either afraid of you or somehow joins you in your pathology, fostering dependence and preventing working through the related issues.

If she would be strong enough to demand you her full fee (because as you said, you can afford it) then this problem of yours, that you feel she does not deserve your money, could come more fully into open and who knows what lurks behind it. Right now it seems to me that the T herself is preventing really discussing those issues.

:
:

Originally Posted by feileacan

I will state my opinion although you may not like it. I will write it anyway, feel free to ignore it.

From reading your other posts I've got an opinion that you have some issues around money. If I remember correctly then the theme whether your T is worth the money you pay her as been constantly on your mind. So, in that sense there's no wonder you are contemplating the issue of taking back the check - considering the whole context it seems perfectly natural and normal.

What I find alarming though is that your T does not charge you her full fee although you both know that you can afford it. And moreover, she was offering to give you back the check for the time and service she had already dedicated to you! I don't know what it means but somehow it seems that she is subconsciously either afraid of you or somehow joins you in your pathology, fostering dependence and preventing working through the related issues.

If she would be strong enough to demand you her full fee (because as you said, you can afford it) then this problem of yours, that you feel she does not deserve your money, could come more fully into open and who knows what lurks behind it. Right now it seems to me that the T herself is preventing really discussing those issues.

I agree.(sorry didn't want to use the like button. I find it repulsive in its use/abuse )

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Well, since she offered it, maybe try to withdraw the check and see how you feel about it with time. Satisfied? Empowered? Guilty? Ambivalent? Perhaps "acting this out" might generate good material to discuss with her later.

I would feel guilty I think.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I would think the therapist would give you a free appointment. Not so much take the check back, but not pay for the next one. I would not feel guilty for doing it - I think the therapist should feel guilty for taking money and not performing.

But she never offered to do that. I had to bring it up. I also have to be honest. She wasn't totally distracted and I rambled on about stuff like I often do. It was so different from the way she has been for 7 years that threw me. Part of me agrees with you but I feel like I didn't accept the check back so it's too late now. She won't offer the next session for free. I missed my chance.

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Payment is an important boundary in therapy. I don’t actually think she should have offered.

I have in fact gotten free sessions from No. 3. Once, it was a session intended to repair a colossal mistake she made, way way way beyond her being distracted. The rest were just, she didn’t charge for things she could have like extending session time. I offered a few times and got rebuffed, so I stopped. But I wish I had paid regardless because it would have stopped that relationship from getting so messy. If I had the resources, I would pay her back, because I think that would help me feel better about that relationship. I might still someday.

I think in an ideal world therapy fees (and lots of other professional fees) should be tied to the success of each session (donation-based, with a minimum donation). But in this world therapists and clients have a contract, like with other professionals. Lawyers generally charge whether they successfully defend a client or not. Doctors charge whether patients get better or not. Mere distraction to me doesn’t rate anything other than an apology and a commitment to try not to let it happen again.

I don't know. Stopdog has a point (next post) about it being her whole job to pay attention to the client but she didn't. She emailed or texted, only once, when I came back from the bathroom (I was too quick!), and she looked at the clock more than usual. She DID listen to my singing on my cell phone with 100% attention for about 6 minutes. But she admitted via email that she WAS distracted. I wish SHE had offered a free session, instead of me bringing it up. I pay before we start. I should have discussed it then.

Originally Posted by stopdog

The difference to me is that the therapist is being paid to pay attention to the client - that is their one job. That is it. They don't do anything else. So not paying attention is failing at their job.

You pay a lawyer to represent you - not to win your case - no lawyer with even a quarter brain promises to win
You pay an md to try and treat a condition - not always to fix it so it goes away and never returns.

I sort of agree but no one is perfect.

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

I think payment for service like therapy is paying for the time spent in the office. If she spent the time with you, you owe her the money. Out at breakfast the other morning they messed up my omelet (forgot to omit the tomatoes and add the spinach). I told my server about it but specifically said I wasn't looking for a reduced fee. I got one anyway. I think when clients make complaints, T's take action. Once my T missed a session, and she gave me a free co pay at the next one. Not necessary but appreciated. Obviously it wasn't only about the money for you or you'd have taken the check.

I think it's perfectly fine to complain to your T about anything that isn't right for you. But to move forward, I wonder if it might be useful for you to spend some time discussion what this is really about. Why don't you pay her full fee if you can afford it? Why do you think she shouldn't be paid more? What does this say about how you value time from your therapist and/or other people?

It seems to me that you often say something about how you are treated by other people, family, friends, and your T. Like it is never enough for you. Is that something to work on? I think the money issue is just standing in front of something larger.

Thanks. The reason she gave me the reduced rate in the first place is because my husband was sick and he didn't want me to see her for $100. Insurance had enabled me to pay just a copay for 5 years. I think I paid $75 which was her idea. I had LESS money when my husband was alive, and that fee was our agreement. After my husband passed away, I voluntarily gave her $100. I didn't know that she raised her fee to $160 for awhile. I don't remember her telling me for about a year.

I have someone else help me at home and she raised her price recently. She told me that but said since we started at the original price, she wasn't going to change it. I thought that was commonly done.

Nevertheless, I agree it's not about the money. Well, sort of, it is. It's about me being a professional but getting paid peanuts! Like how come T gets to earn so much? I think I'm more intelligent than she is. Yes, it's about me and jealously and other stuff. I totally agree with you.u

[wheeler]

Not to be meant at all, just another viewpoint.

It seems that you often question your therapist's intention and authenticity because you pay her. So now that she's offered to have you 'not' pay her for that session you still question her.

Also as someone has noted, do you offer to give back your salary when you aren't able to give your all at work?

I think you expect way too much from your T and no matter what approach she takes you have issues with it. I sometimes wonder if you're in a rut with her and maybe a different T can help you move forward with this cycling.

[stopdog]

Therapists are not, in private practice, paid a salary. They are paid on a services provided basis. This time the therapist did not provide the service. It is like ordering lunch - I don't pay if the lunch is not ready or not correct or not on time.

I bill on an hourly basis. I don't get to bill at all if I don't do any work. I don't get to bill for an hour if I only do 30 minutes of work.

[Mully]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Therapists are not, in private practice, paid a salary. They are paid on a services provided basis. This time the therapist did not provide the service. It is like ordering lunch - I don't pay if the lunch is not ready or not correct or not on time.

I bill on an hourly basis. I don't get to bill at all if I don't do any work. I don't get to bill for an hour if I only do 30 minutes of work.

I assume you get paid regardless of whether your client is satisfied with your work and the outcome of your work.