Survivors of Unethical Therapy

Towards the end, when I started to realize that I shouldn’t be taking the abuse I was taking from my therapist – even before the abuse became extreme – I stopped using the DBT skills I had acquired over a year of DBT with her.

Now that I am with a new therapist, I am still not using the skills and I’m continuing to decompensate getting worse and worse week after week.

Even though my prior therapist was abusive, I did grow and learn helpful things when I was with her (no one is completely good or completely bad.) Now it appears as though I am simply refusing to use the tools I acquired to help myself.

I’m wondering if subconsciously I’m refusing to use the skills I learned while with the abusive therapist because I believe that those tools are now tainted and can’t be used, particularly after the awful things she did to me at the end.

Does anyone else feel as though the positive things they learned while with their abusive therapist are now, in some way, invalidated?

Does anyone else feel that thinking about and/or using the positive skills you learned with the abusive therapist bring back painful memories of the therapist and now you avoid using them even though the skills themselves are useful and good?

Has anyone figured out a way to get through a block like this?

Actually, I've never felt that I don't want to use skills or rather insights I acquired from my abusive therapists. Somehow, I have always been able to separate what I have gotten from the person in any relationship from the person himself. If something was working for me I was using it regardless of how that knowledge/understanding came to me and who helped me to get it.

Maybe, it's because I was more inclined to understand my own process when I was healing from abuse rather than to get mentally stuck on how horrible my abusers were and how horrible the whole system was etc. etc. I fully recognized the unfairness of what was done to me and I never suppressed my pain and anger, but, at the same time, I didn't want my thoughts to be hooked on the idea that I was just a victim of some sick individuals and some evil system and that was it. That felt utterly disempowering and depressing to me and I hate to stay in the place where I feel disempowered. Of course, I was a victim, but I wanted to understand which specific "sour spots" that I had my abusive therapists were able to exploit. In other words, I was more interested in understanding my own insecurities, unmet needs and wishful thinking that made me vulnerable in relationships in general and susceptible to exploitation so I could work on those areas so no one could ever exploit me again.

In other words, I was "selfishly" focused on myself. My well-being was more important to me than dwelling on how horrible my therapists were.

That doesn't mean that I suppressed or invalidated my pain and anger. I never suppress or invalidate any of my feelings. When they come I feel them fully because it helps me to release them out of my system. But once they go I don't go after them. I let them go and bring my focus back to my own life and my healing work. This "selfish" attitude allows me to use whatever works for me, including the skills I developed with the help of my abusive therapists, because, as you said correctly, no one is completely bad or completely good. We don't stay in any relationship, no matter how abusive it is unless there is something we are getting from it.

Another reason why I can use and appreciate what I've learned in therapy is because my healing work included looking at life from a bigger perspective and finding some spiritual purpose for every experience I've had in my life, whether harmful or not. This really helps to put a distance between what has happened and to look at it from a more detached perspective, and when you are able to look at things neutrally, you are in a better position to see what would work for you regardless of where you obtained those skills or knowledge. There have been many people in my life I couldn't stand, but I've learned a few useful things from all of them and I still use what I've learned.

For those interested in Mackler's media - in this video he talks about the criteria of a good therapist. It's a bit long but interesting, mostly because I don't think he realizes how he gets carried away and falls into some of his own traps.


I definitely agree with some of his points but some simply goes way too far into what is unrealistic and likely impossible. He also discusses many of the criteria bringing up himself as example, not saying explicitly but obviously suggesting that he was a good therapist, if not outstanding. It often gets way too self-validating to be taken seriously, at least for me. Also, if these are all realistic standards to be a good therapist, no surprise he got frustrated, fed up, and quit - it's pretty much impossible to meet all those things IMO. I don't think the whole thing, with all aspects he brings up, even sounds good as an ideal or goal to strive for. In the end, he even claims that a good therapist is not supposed to be able to handle both a fulfilling personal family life and professional challenges.

What is the foundation of therapy?

What would you suggest other than fallible human beings as therapists?

Listen, then, please.

I have never been told by a therapist that I could be healed. I have only been told by a few surgeons that they promised to leave no scar.

I’m that thin and tortured corpus on a cross but I have more marks upon my body.

I don’t believe that mental disorders are ever healed anymore than I believe that three thoracic surgeons will cut me open without leaving their marks upon my body.

Where is your evidence that mental health professionals claim that disorders can be ‘healed’ over and again? I realize that you’ve been harmed by unethical therapists but surely that doesn’t mean that you lose all objectivity?

Yeah, he rubs me the wrong way a little bit too. I too see what you see. I didn't watch the video you shared (too long, sorry), but the concept of being a "good therapist" while operating in the sick system sounds nonsensical. I don't even know what it means to be a "good therapist" when the whole practice is so subjective. The same therapist can be "good" for someone and horrible for someone else. In the current system I can only expect and hope that the therapist would bring as much of their personal integrity into their work as they can, but that is not a guarantee that everything or anything they do will be helpful and it is also not a guarantee that they won't inflict harm, as the process itself carries a potential to harm by design and that's the process they were trained in. So, the "good therapist" is something I really cannot define in the context of the structure within which they operate.

And if someone says or implies that they were "good" as a therapist, that makes my BS radar go off. I have no idea whether I was "good" or "bad" as a therapist, as there was never an objective criteria for me for measuring the results of my work. I received both positive and negative feedback from my clients. Some of them were quite happy with what I was doing, some were not. Do I measure my professional "goodness" by how many clients gave me a positive feedback vs negative? By that measure I was, probably, "good". I have no idea as I never kept a count of those who praised me and those who criticized me. I certainly received more positive feedback, but it's simply because most of those who didn't like what I was doing simply left very early in the process, often after the first session. I always made it easy for people to leave. When things don't work from the start, it's best not to pursue it further, so it was always a relief to me and, I believe, to a client when we both felt that we were not a good match and they left immediately.

Now, when people praised me does that really mean I was doing a good work? I don't know. May be I was just saying something they liked to hear but that doesn't necessarily mean I was doing a good work. Or does it? I have no idea. Just like I have no idea if I necessarily "screwed up" just because someone didn't like what I was doing. Just because someone doesn't like what you do or say doesn't necessarily mean you are doing or saying something wrong.

In this friggin field everything is so subjective and so much depends on how one feels in the moment. So, I can't understand how anyone can evaluate themselves either as a "good" or a "bad" therapist.

That aside, what I mainly disliked in Mackler's videos is that he doesn't seem to be bothered by the process of therapy itself. What he mostly criticizes is DSM and the practices of insurance companies (the latter has nothing to do with therapy per se). But he seems to be more than happy with such dangerous concepts as "intimacy" between a therapist and a client and a "therapeutic relationship". He seems to completely subscribe to the notion that the "relationship" is the major healing factor in therapy and I know all too well how people get harmed through therapy "relationships".

Last but not least, the guy looks like an emotional wreck to me. He clearly didn't even begin to heal many of his own wounds and yet he rushed to "rescue" others. There is a lot to say about the "rescuer" type of therapist, but it's another long subject. All I can say is that I am glad he quit practicing long ago and, despite my criticism, I am glad he speaks out about the flaws of the system, even though he doesn't go far enough. Any open rebellion, any dissent from professionals is a good thing in the long run provided that it will continue to grow. Needless to say, it is very validating to those who have been traumatized in therapy.

I had many of the same perceptions on him. As far as the relationship, in that long video, he goes as far as saying that a good therapist loves his/her clients. And states straight that he loved all of his clients. That really made me cringe, thinking about all the people I here on PC who express longing for a T's love and wanting to hear that from a T.

He does come across in his videos as a very intense person, very reactive and I often feel he exaggerates and perceives traumas in everything. That's not a negative judgment of him as these things are of course highly subjective. But I am not sure this kind of very high sensitivity and reactivity is helpful in a T, even if he does not take it out on clients. Basically transmitting that life is a gigantic mess of traumas and abuse. Maybe it's a good image for some clients who feel similarly and so feel understood and that the T relates to them, but is that helpful in a professional? Not sure in general, I know for certain that I would not like it. I am also not surprised, seeing hearing his personal stories and seeing the reactions, that he found being a therapist eventually extremely overwhelming and intolerable.

I do like the guy in other ways though and could easily imagine him as a good conversation partner in many areas in a causal setting. He is definitely creative and has many radical ideas, very expressive also. It also seems that he is far more self-aware than the average Joe, and not because of training and because he is supposed to, but has a genuine interest in exploring himself - whether he has resolved the issues or not. These would all be attractive traits for me in a friend, for example. It certainly seems like he has found himself in his current role far better than as a T in the past. And probably more useful. I agree though that he does not go far enough with more objectively looking at the larger picture, the system as a whole - probably because he is more interested in himself and a bit self-absorbed, not very practical either. Seems more like an artist type than an actual reformer.

My current therapist used to work with my abusive therapist until December of last year. They worked together for 7 years and my abusive therapist was her DBT co-facilitator.

For reasons unknown, my abusive therapist left the practice with no place to land and we planned things on the fly until she landed again in late January.

Things went terminal in early February with my abusive therapist and ties were broken.

I was already seeing my current therapist for EMDR, so I stayed on with her full time.

You see the potential for issues already!

My abusive therapist called my current therapist the day we terminated and told her that I had sent her an email saying absolutely horrible and reprehensible things to her on an immense level.

Two days later I went to see my new therapist with the email I had sent my abusive therapist in hand because I didn’t understand why the abuse therapist exploded at me with such force after I sent it. (I was asking to not see her for a while because I couldn’t take her invalidating behavior and I thought she was doing me harm.)

My new therapist read my email and started becoming very agitated and had to stop and practice some calming breathing exercises. She said that she felt deceived and lied to and that the email I wrote was very mindful and was nothing like what was represented to her by the abusive therapist.

As we moved forward, I gave my new therapist a couple months of journal entries so she could see how things had been going. After she read them, she said that is abuse and enough to file a claim with the licensing board. My new therapist is an approving Supervisor for new licensees in the state.

I did file a claim with the licensing board, but I did it on actual legal violations of the law and administrative rules, not the specific abusive behavior other than citing unprofessional conduct.

Last week I remembered my new therapist saying that my journals showed obvious abuse, so I asked her why she didn’t file a complaint with the board. She said that she didn’t have first hand knowledge, so she didn’t. I accepted that, until I started to use my brain for a minute.

There is no possible way whatsoever that any therapist other than my abusive therapist would have first hand knowledge of the abuse – no one else would ever be in the room. What an absolutely ridiculous cop out on her part.

Now, I’m not a fool and I know that the vast majority of people are cowards and won’t ever stand up for what is right. That is proven human nature – polite society requires it.

But I don’t think I can let it stand. Yes, it is my therapist’s choice, completely, if she files a complaint. I can think of a multitude of well-reasoned and completely cowardly arguments for not filing a complaint – the list is almost endless.

The fact that she was lied to by the abusive therapist and that she has watched me rapidly decompensate after everything collapsed is reason enough in my mind for her to file a complaint; and apparently in her mind too after reading my journals – she just isn’t going to do it.

I feel that I need to confront her on how ridiculous her cop out was for not filing a complaint. I will completely respect her right to be a coward and duplicitous in her commitment to upholding the foundational principals of her profession, but I don’t think I can move forward with her without letting her know that I know exactly what she is and what her lame excuse represented – a coward.

I feel that I need to point out the flaw in her logic or I simply will not be able to move forward with her.

Am I being too harsh and expecting too much out of her?

Is in unrealistic to expect that our relationship will ever be more than corrupted and tainted due to her relationship to the abusive therapist?

I don’t know what to do.

Hi Alden,

I just deleted my previous reply. it was way too wordy and confusing. I'll go straight to the point.

No, it's not unreasonable of you in your specific situation to expect that your current therapist would report your abusive therapist to the board. She knows enough to make a report IMO. She knows that your abusive therapist lied to her and she has read your journal entries. She doesn't need to have hard evidence of what went on in sessions between you and your abusive therapist. It's not her job to investigate. If she believes that abuse took place (which she does), she is allowed to make a report. Investigating complaints is the responsibility of the board.

Now, I just want you to know that, as much as I understand your desire for her to report, her report wouldn't change much in terms of increasing the chance that your abusive therapist will be disciplined. The boards are overwhelmed with the volume of complaints they get each year and, sadly, third parties complaints are often dismissed. So, in terms of you trusting your current therapist, yes, it's important for her to make a report, but in terms of your case succeeding, it's not going to help much.

In my case, it was sufficient for me to know that some of the subsequent therapists I consulted after my abuse took place were willing to write a "to whom it may concern" letter for me relaying my story as they heard it from me. I was planning to attach the letter to my complaint. I ended up not working with any therapist and doing my own self-healing. But, when I considered working with those therapists, it was good enough for me to know that they would just write the letter. I didn't expect them to report my abusive therapist. They didn't know him personally. They didn't have any information from him. And they also just met me and just heard my side of the story. Under those circumstances I thought it'd be unreasonable of me to expect that they would get themselves involved. But, as I said, your case is a little different, so in your circumstances, I'd say, it's reasonable for you to expect your therapist taking some action to put her money where her mouth is so to speak.

I also have a reaction to Alden. I think a situation like that, working with two therapists who know each-other well and collaborate closely, is a very tricky one. Especially if it comes to an experience like yours, where you share your frustrations regarding the old T with the new one and expect the new T to help resolve it. I really doubt that anyone could avoid being massively biased in that situation, if for nothing else, just to maintain their own professional status quo. This is part of the reason for me that I would never even ask for referrals between mental health professionals and prefer to do my own search.

As for the reporting, Ididitmyway made some very good points. I would also ask myself, before taking any action, what my true motives are and what I could potentially gain from the reporting. I had a very unprofessional, manipulative, sick therapist myself in the past and for a long time I had strong urges to report him and to put him down somehow. The way it often entered my consciousness was that I wanted to somehow step in and interfere with his abusing more vulnerable clients, which sounds like a valid and maybe noble motive. But thinking more deeply, I think I more just wanted to punish him in any way I could, it was a desire for revenge primarily, only secondarily a desire to maybe protect others. But the more I allowed myself to immerse in those thoughts and motives, the more it affected my own mental health and awareness negatively - I spent considerable amount of time and energy looking up his stuff online, mentally criticizing his obviously self-centered and narcissistic attitudes even in his social media interactions, and indulging in my own frustration and anger more. It became quite distorted and toxic for me, a cycle without any gain. I don't think I would have gotten much good and personal relief from putting evidence together and reporting him, probably just more personal disintegration. I was asking myself instead why I even engaged with someone like that in the first place and actually spent almost a year seeing him - that was more meaningful for me and, like Ididitmyway mentioned, more self-healing than replaying those frustrations over and over while engaging in them. It was pretty hard not to go there mentally for a while though, I think that's a normal reaction to being upset.

I personally find it more meaningful to post about the experience here on PC where other clients can read it directly rather than a formal report that most likely would be dismissed and never reach anyone who can be truly affected. I also tried to post anonymous reviews on him online but he somehow finds ways to get all negative comments and reviews removed (not only mine, they appear and are gone quickly). The guy must be very well-connected and is clearly able to fool many given that he can make that happen. Well, I know very well that he is a master manipulator, that's how he collects the positive reviews as well, begging for them, even demanding them from his associates (I saw that countless times following him online) - obviously they are fake and come from his friends, people who only know him from his distorted social media, and perhaps clients he manipulates successfully. Maybe it would be more effective if I used my real name in reviews, but that is not something I am willing to do publicly, mostly because of my own professional roles. So I communicate with other therapy clients instead, or with people interested in psychotherapy in general.

Anyway, I am just posting this because I think it can be helpful to think what the potential benefits of reporting could be. Also remain aware of potentially adding even more frustration if the complaint gets dismissed.

Thanks so much for this clear description of your internal process. It's somewhat similar to mine.

The goal, I think, of therapy in my case would have been to help or provide a safe social environment for me develop a strong, realistic, integrated sense of self. I was "fragmented and wounded", as one therapist put it -- and that feels OK and fairly descriptive to me, too. But the question is, after I became aware of the pieces and the wounds, how could I develop, or allow to develop, that strong and realistic sense of self?

The last therapist, with whom I was in therapy for 6 years, helped, or allowed, me to become more aware of the wounds and the fragments. And then she "wounded" me in a way that mimicked how I had been wounded originally in my family of origin. And I became aware of the desire for revenge, something that I had previously never consciously felt, as I had also not consciously felt the hurt of that type of wound.

Revenge serves a useful purpose sometimes, and that feeling provides useful information -- I have been hurt. But sometimes acting on it doesn't serve a particularly useful purpose and can take energy and expose one to risk for additional harm.

Feeling hate and revenge was a no-no, so it took me a long time to allow them to "be" and to feel them. I still felt somewhat guilty about feeling them.

Just recently, though, I have had an awareness that is something that it would have been nice if I could have had a long time ago -- but I didn't. I right now resent the fact that it has taken me so long, but the reality is that it comes when it comes.

So this is the awareness: "I hate ____________ because they hurt me, and I care about me.

I repressed/suppressed/dissociated hate and revenge, turned it against myself, and in that process repressed/suppressed/dissociated the caring about myself, too.

I'm also aware of my caring about others these days, too. It's been hard to separate from the co-dependent care-taking of another's problems, "fixing" theirs at the same time that I don't see my own.

It's taken a long time, and I didn't find a therapist who could go the whole way with me, but. . .

Feeling the hate and revenge, and the hurt, and still caring about me. . .I think that may be the grounding, or something, that I have needed.

I agree. I expressed the same thought in the first version of my post. Then I thought that since Alden's current therapist fully validated Alden's experience then may be she would not be inclined to be protective of her colleague. But now, I think, that this might be a little naive to think that. People are complex and can have contradictory feelings about the same thing. It's quite possible that Alden's current therapist is sincerely outraged by what the abusive therapist did, but that doesn't necessarily feel right to her to get involved. And while I do believe that, it often happens due to cowardice, this might not be the only explanation. If she is that therapist's long time colleague, there might still be some loyalty at play here, actually quite a bit of loyalty. Remember, we all feel loyal and attached to friends, family, colleagues, and, even when we know very well that they did something wrong, we don't necessarily run to authorities the next day to report them. This may not have anything to do with cowardice. Even if we confronted that person and aren't on speaking terms with them, it still doesn't feel right to us to "turn them in" so to speak. We still may cherish the history of our relationship with that person and don't want to throw that in the trash even if we believe that what they did was reprehensible. This is a perfectly human thing to feel.

I, in fact, once considered working with some guy who was my abusive therapist's long-term colleague but I dropped the idea immediately. He told me upfront that he was not willing to write ANYTHING for the board and, what's more, he didn't even validate my experience. He said that he "supports" me but was unwilling to accept that what happened to me was abuse or to call a spade a spade so to speak. I just thought that it was unethical of him to be willing to work with me with that kind of attitude. If i didn't believe that my colleague did something wrong I'd refer their former client elsewhere. I wouldn't work with them. It's understandable when you trust your long time colleague, who may also be a friend, more than you trust the claims of someone you've never met before. But, in that case, you should refuse to work with them. It's disgusting when you stay loyal to the person I complain about and yet continue to see me for your business purposes.

I think, it's also important to be mindful a.k.a honest about our own intentions in those situations when we seek further assistance from the therapist who has known our abusive therapist for a long time, Why them out of all professionals? The common sense would suggest that they would be the least likely person to be supportive of us. Then why? I can honestly tell you why I did it now that I can reflect on things. At that time, I did it to ruin my abusive therapist's reputation among his colleagues. I don't judge myself for that intention when I look back. I don't feel ashamed about it in any way. After all I was not slandering him. I was telling the truth. He really did what I said he'd done. So, I don't see anything immoral in my desire to expose him. But was it serving my own best interests? Nope. Because it did nothing to heal my own wounds.

So true. I cannot stress enough how important it is to be honest with yourself about your true intentions. I am happy that I understood the importance of this before I filed a complaint. After I did some soul-search, I realized that I wanted to make my reporting a healing experience for myself, which meant that I was willing to completely let go of the outcome of it. I didn't want to see myself being re-traumatized in case the board would clear my abusive therapist of any wrongdoing. I didn't want to see myself fighting for justice for the rest of my life. I had family to attend to and I still wanted to make the best out of whatever time was left for me on this planet. Not that I was old or that I am old now, but I was no longer a young chick either. I became acutely aware of how short our life is and that if I wanted to have a sense of its meaning I'd better get my priorities right and I'd better do it now.

So, I decided to report just for the sake of reporting not for the sake of punishing anyone. I knew that I needed to report. It felt 100% right to do that. I felt very empowered when I finally mailed my complaint which took me 6 months to write. My healing action was complete when I sent the complaint out. I firmly set my mind on not being emotionally invested in the outcome. I didn't want my emotional well-being to be dependent on what some board bureaucrat would decide. I thought if they disciplined him that'd be a bonus, but if not I was not going to allow it to affect my life. Would I have been upset if they hadn't punish him? Yes. Upset but not devastated and not re-traumatized like many people whose complaints were unsuccessful. I knew I would move on with my life no matter what the board decided.

I know Alden that you have filed a complaint already. At this point, just decide how much you want to invest your emotional energy into the outcome and into fighting for justice in general. There is a cliche saying that we often need to decide if being happy is more important for us than being right. In our cases, it translates into deciding if healing is more important for us than finding justice and societal validation. I know that for many people it feels like they cannot heal unless and until justice is served and, to some extend, I can understand it. It does help when some public agency like a licensing board or a court of law that represents the society finds your abuser guilty of the wrongdoing. It's very validating. I wish, the public was more aware of this issue and more victims received justice. But we are not that evolved yet and there is a long way to go in that direction. Most importantly, though, is that if deep down you feel crappy about yourself no amount of societal justice would make you feel better. I've known people who were able to strip their abusive therapists off their licenses and sued them successfully for damages. But that didn't bring them any healing. They continued to stalk their abusers, their families, their girlfriends etc...It was tragic and very sad to watch. Those people were looking for healing outside of themselves. They believed that some external circumstances would heal them such as a successful lawsuit, a disciplinary action from the licensing board, the abuser's loss of employment or loss of business or loss of family. But external events don't heal. Healing happens inside through inner work when people get the courage to look within, which was apparently a very terrifying proposition for those people...

Aha. I know very well what a therapist's "love" is and how it ends. Not good. Of course, "love" could mean different things. We use the word way too loosely in
American culture and thus it got completely devalued. One can define compassion as a kind of love that is impersonal and that consists of a empathy felt for someone's experience and a feeling of good will toward them. In that sense, I "loved" my clients as well. But, I suspect, that's not what Mackler meant. Otherwise, he would just say "compassion". I can't imagine any adult person who has been in close relationships with other people like family, friends, romantic partners who'd use the word "love" describing their relationships outside of their close circle, whether it's relationships with colleagues, bosses, clients. When a therapist says they "love" their clients I don't believe they know what love is and it makes me think that they've never been in truly intimate, mature relationships. And if yes, there is nothing they can offer me. To me they have no real life experience to put themselves in the position to help people navigate through their lives.

Yes, he seems to be very reactive. I don't see him as intense though. More like emotionally disturbed, frankly..That's why I am glad he stopped practicing for his own sake and for the same of his clients. I also don't see him perceiving trauma in everything but rather being overwhelmed by traumatic experiences of other people, which, I believe, is largely due to the fact that he hasn't heal a lot of his own traumas.

And, no, high reactivity is not helpful in a T. My last T was very reactive and also "loved" me very much and all that hurt me more than helped even though it felt good in the moment. He'd feel with me and for me. He'd cry for me at times. He'd be outraged at anyone or everyone who was abusive to me, hurt me and was unfair to me in any way. It felt awesome to see such support of me but the awesomeness started fading away the more I realized that I am still stuck in my life, that i still have emotional blocks that don't allow me to take constructive actions, that I was still lost as far as where I wanted and needed to go. His supportive emotional reactions did nothing for me in the long run. In fact, they kept me stuck in the unhealthy place of inaction, self-doubt, constantly searching for someone to blame etc.

Actually, I believe, Mackler behaved similarly with his clients. In one of his videos he said that he'd often tell a client how overwhelmingly horrific their experience was and how he was surprised that they were able to cope or something of that sort. Very unhelpful strategy if you ask me. It can make you feel good in the moment because you'd feel seen and heard for the first time may be, but, in fact, this just the food for your ego. When a therapist has such strong emotional reactions to your story and it makes you feel special, that's just ego need being fulfilled.

As far as being highly sensitive, I believe sensitivity is actually a must for a therapist to have. Sensitivity is a basis for empathy. Without sensitivity true empathy is impossible IMO. I can't just intellectualize about a client's experiences and I would hate if a therapist intellectualized about my experiences and wasn't able to feel them. That would make me feel that they don't really "get it". But sensitivity doesn't have to turn into reactivity. It's a professional skill to make sure that you don't act out your empathy through your exaggerated emotional reactions.

When therapists react to clients stories in such emotionally exaggerated ways they come across as drama queens, frankly. This is the visceral impression I get of Mackler and my lat T. It helps to see a friend reacting that way when you need their support, but a therapist? No, thank you.

No ****. If I'd allowed myself to react to the clients stories the way he does, I would've killed myself in the couple of weeks.

I wouldn't want to socialize with the guy. I don't dislike him but I also don't like him as a person enough for socializing. Yes, he is definitely more conscious than the average Joe, yes, he definitely has some refreshing radical ideas on different topics ( I listened to some of his videos where he philosophizes outside of the therapy subject), but I actually came up with many of those ideas on my own a long time ago, so to me they are not original at all . Also, being a spiritual/philosophical/psychological junkie, I've come across so many interesting and enlightening people and social media sources that it's hard to impress me . By comparison to what I've read, heard, watched and come up on my own Mackler's "radical" ideas aren't radical enough for me, sorry To me, he doesn't go deep enough and far enough.

Besides, personality-wise, I see him as idealistic and someone who doesn't know, doesn't appreciate and doesn't embrace the dark side of life. Idealists are not interesting people to me, not the ones I want to connect with. I "click" with people, who, like me, are comfortable with their own ****, with other people's **** and with life's **** in general. Not that they like it but they don't judge it. They just accept it as is, as the reality of life. And not in the intellectual way when they disconnect from their emotions and pretend to be "above" them. That's not real acceptance, not real wisdom, not real objectivity. That's just the defense against one's emotions. I am talking about people who are fully in touch with their feelings, including the darkest ones, with all their impulses and instincts, including the lowest ones, and who accept all of them with no judgment while also understanding their nature and the necessity to manage them.

Now the question is how do I approach her without seeming confrontational or demanding?

Is it a poor decision on my part to remain with her as a therapist? If she isn't willing to support me, that hits a sore spot with me because I have an issue with moral cowards - they disgust me. It's a personally tick I have that paints things too black and white.

Another question I have to ask myself is am I just being unwilling to go through the stress of finding a new therapist and that is why I am staying with her?

In another post you or someone mentioned staying with a therapist at the same clinic to discredit the abusive therapist's reputation - that was definitely a huge added bonus for me for sure.

As far as the complaint goes, I've read enough online to know that the likelihood that it will go anywhere is basically zero. They did establish that they have jurisdiction, but that is meaningless. It just means that what I am claiming is a violation of law.

I'm not waiting for a resolution and I have done everything I reasonably can to damage her reputation through reporting to her employer and her insurance providers - all did nothing, so I'm done with that. There is nothing left for me to reasonably do in that arena and I'm not focused on that and I don't expect resolution.

I do expect that my current therapist will support me and her BS answer that she doesn't have first hand knowledge of the abuse has me very concerned where her loyalties lie - with her profession or with the abusive therapist, or is she just deep down a coward or lazy.

A confrontation has to take place, but I want it to be effective and non-attacking. I don't know how she will react and if there is another answer why she has chosen not to support me.

I'm unsure how to approach her and what to do.

Well, if you intend to call her out on what you believe is cowardice, this is a confrontation by definition, so there is no way to appear non confrontational here.

I've already expressed what I think about it in one of my previous posts. I just don't believe that a long time colleague of the abusive therapist is in a position to be helpful to victims of that therapist for personal reasons.

It's understandable in case you firmly set your mind on seeing her as a moral coward.

Yes. This seems like an important question to ask yourself.

That's understandable. Do you feel like you have achieved that goal?

Ok, so what is your goal now?

Sounds like a good question to ask her. Especially since you want to do that anyway.

Ok, let me keep it real.

Nothing you say to her will be effective if your goal is to get her to file a complaint with the board. She is not going to do that. It doesn't matter how you approach her. If you keep your cool and stay polite, she'll just repeat what she had already told you, that she doesn't have a first hand knowledge of abuse. If you get very confrontational she might end her work with you. That's the reality of your situation, as I see it. What you do with it is your choice.

After my situation disintegrated with my bullying group therapist, I unwisely returned to the individual therapist who referred me. Much of referring therapist's focus was to discourage me from legal action, to the point of drilling me that the bully wasn't a bad therapist, it was a bad match. (I never even used the phrase "bad therapist.")We never discussed the referral or had bad judgment. It shocked me to learn my therapist's true loyalties, but there was the sad evidence.

I got triggered yesterday and happened to stumble upon this thread again. I am so heartbroken about all the abuse that is going on! Haven't been triggered like that in a month or so. Got a new job and it has allowed me to dissociate a bit and get out of the pain for awhile. I can honestly say that without therapy I am doing MUCH MUCH better! I think we all have the ability to find peace, resolve, strength and resilience without requiring therapy.

Thanks,
HD7970ghz

So, it has been a while. I found another therapist, but kept the current therapist who was there during the termination with the bad therapist - they use two completely different modalities so I'm OK working with them even though they hate each other's modalities with great prejudice.


It has finally degraded to the point with the therapist that worked with the bad therapist that she has simply stopped scheduling me after I completed the updated insurance paperwork she needed to get paid. (Don't forget people, to a lot of these people you are simply a pathology and a paycheck). I could write a book on all the things she did to push me away. It is quite ridiculous.

I think I have found a therapist that truly understands trauma and my condition, so we'll see how that goes.

In the meantime, I spend two and half hours in an intense, rapid fire, no breaks, recorded interview with the states attorney general's office. By the end of the interview the seemingly composed investigator seemed rather confused on where she was going to go next.

What was most frustrating is that she was missing 40% of the documentation from the hand delivered complaint the Board received. I have since sent her a complete bibliography of everything she should have.


The interview also allowed me to add multiple violations to the record, for which I had the statute and specific documentation to substantiate, but did not include in my original complaint.


I don't know if this is positive or not, but the investigator who told me that she had a specific list of documents she wanted from me, was unsure what direction she would take and she would contact me in a month or so after she goes through the transcript of our conversation for any documents.


I'd like to believe that something will actually come of this, but reality is, and I felt it hard during the interview (a lot of blaming the victim questions), that the AG interviewer was just looking for a way to substantiate the therapists response to my complaint.

Thankfully, one of the things the bad therapist documented in her case notes is a civil rights violation. The interviewer seemed quite interested in that, but continued to blame me for not doing more at the time.

Reality is, it will probably go nowhere, as most cases like this go, and she will continue to damage and destroy innocent and vulnerable people unimpeded.

My only hope is that this might temper her pathology a little and that is the best I think I could possibly get.

At least I can sleep at night knowing that I stood up and said something!


If you EVER sense red flags coming from a therapist, confront them, and if they don't have the right answer just leave. Even if it just doesn't feel right for some reason, leave. Get out. Many therapists become therapists because they are severely damaged and they are looking for ways to heal themselves. They are pathological and dangerous... and licensed to do harm.

Have to revive and keep this thread going somehow. I just want to send out support for anyone and everyone who has ever been hurt but healthcare professionals whose job it was to help but only harmed!

You are NOT alone!

Thanks,
HD7970ghz

thanks for this helpful reminder.

unfortunately,at the time when i was stuck and drowning in some unhealthy dynamics with my ex-T and i could sense and was questioning myself (and him) that things did not seem quite right, i lacked the courage and ability to fully trust myself and my gut. even my husband, who was my main support and confidant during that chaotic time, was encouraging me to stay in therapy because he too feared that i would be worse off with out therapy and that he did not have the full strength to support me during that time. looking back, now that i have completed therapy, we both can see and admit to our failures of not giving ourselves enough credit that we could manage me without having to have my therapist as fully involved as we were allowing him to be. now that i am many years beyond therapy and have progressed in my life in many healthy and positive ways (my husband included) we now know that we will definitely not make that mistake with another T again.

Reading was important in the aftermath of my bad therapy. That eventually led to a (one entry) blog and conversations with a community.

An internet friend helped me gather links that were posted in the discussion over the year and I continued adding new finds. The link to the compiled list is pasted below.

Links and resources | Disequilibrium1's Blog

This is amazing! I perused your link briefly and was amazed at how much is there. Thank you.

I have posted a thread about some of the things that happened to me so don't want to repeat them now and haven't done others the honor of reading the stories yet.


I did want to say that I now really can see how dangerous these things can be and have decided that instead of becoming a therapist myself, which was a consideration, I'm going to work as an advocate about some of the issues, not necessarily right away or those directly about therapy, but the ways that it is overseen and the way laws work to not cover things. There are people with mental health issues who are doing this already and there are pretty famous people such as law professors also. This is not an issue that is going away or can be done only one way. It will take many from different angles working to create a whole set of frames to get it out there and then admitted before anyone will try to make better protections or ways to get out or ways to get help. There are many many different issues.


We are each a drop but together we make an ocean.

There are indeed a lot of survivors. There are too many people saying the same thing for this to stay quiet forever, but normally these kinds of issues require people to work together rather than as lone wolves. Problem is a lot of survivors are scared to speak up because they're worried no one will listen or have been threatened to stay quiet. A social movement is necessary to make a change like this and that would require years of teamwork, research, coordination and organization.

So how can survivors start connecting with one another?

Thanks,
Hd7970ghz

I'm in, but pretty clueless about social movements. Pretty clueless socially, period, still, though hopefully improving (no guarantees, though).

I'm not scared to speak out, though. Not scared to use my real name. I'm retired so speaking out won't influence my sources of income.

Don't have much time right now to learn website development or anything like that -- but can try to provide input when I can, if that will help. And may have some more time in a few months.