[ChickenNoodleSoup]

While I think that most clients care and everything, I think the T here might imply that the caring is different on some level than caring for a friend or for a family member and so on. If I see a homeless guy on the streets, yes I care a bit. But I won't lose sleep over it. Of course I'd care more if it was my T. But there is some small, complicated difference which is probably also individual between my caring for my T and for my parents for example.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Lemoncake

LT your NOT weird for thinking or feeling the way you do, this stood out for me too and this is where Dr.T is getting it wrong. I get attached to everything and everyone. You've spent a year with this dude and is it so hard for him to get this?

Exactly, he knows I’m attached at this point. I don’t understand why he’s struggling to understand what’s going on with me. I know he’s not psychodynamically trained, but he’s been in practice over 15 years and been seeing me over a year. Shouldn’t he get it by now?

[DP_2017]

Sadly not every T knows how to properly handle attachment, no matter how much training they get. There's all kinds of stories of therapy gone wrong because of attachment and T's who were unsure/spooked etc

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Yes, he seems to think that if he just doesn't say things like "I care about you," that will make the transference go away. When...that's not how it works. I know he's not overly trained it in, but surely there is plenty of literature out there for T's to check on how to handle it. I think he's like "I must not do any of what ex-MC did" when really some of the stuff he did helped me, it was more the fact that I couldn't really work things through with him as my marriage counselor. Well, OK and that he had really inconsistent boundaries, but honestly, this T's boundaries have seemed hazy lately, too. Or at least arbitrary.

Very true with anxiously attached!

Maybe you could tell him about the psychoanalytic method of withholding and blank slate. That promotes transference in me more than anything. (Note that I don't expect any T who hasn't been in that therapy to really understand this concept-you just have to experience it).

It seems so primitive how he looks at MC. MC was enmeshed-that is totally different than an unenmeshed T saying "I care". 2 different things completely!

(I also think Ts who use blanket policies don't understand psychological boundaries or may be lazy or unskilled and easier to just do all or none)

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by octoberful

Very true with anxiously attached!

Maybe you could tell him about the psychoanalytic method of withholding and blank slate. That promotes transference in me more than anything. (Note that I don't expect any T who hasn't been in that therapy to really understand this concept-you just have to experience it).

It seems so primitive how he looks at MC. MC was enmeshed-that is totally different than an unenmeshed T saying "I care". 2 different things completely!

(I also think Ts who use blanket policies don't understand psychological boundaries or may be lazy or unskilled and easier to just do all or none)

I think you're exactly right. Ex-MC was definitely enmeshed, so his saying and doing things had a different effect on me than current T saying/doing them. Plus, some stuff that ex-MC did was helpful, so T doesn't need to throw it all away. He doesn't have to do the opposite. And that's a good idea to mention the blank slate transference thing--that's a psychoanalytic thing, right? Freudian? Ex-MC was the opposite of a blank slate, but for someone with a particular attachment style, it probably doesn't really matter how a T/other authority figure presents themselves. They'll attach anyway. Maybe I need to try to explain that to T (even though I shouldn't have to!)

[InkyBooky]

LT- I feel like your T should start paying YOU...instead of you paying him. He is remarkably clueless about even the most basic tenets of attachment theory. The fact that he was surprised by (and then promptly invalidated) your genuine and perfectly normal feelings of caring for him is just another example of this.

Is he really this incompetent!? I find it hard to believe that he is, but it may be so. And if he's not, then he's playing some weird games with your head. Yikes. He's lucky you're as smart, psycho-educated, and self-aware as you are. A more vulnerable or fragile client might be seriously damaged by this.

Edited to add: These are just my biased opinions and I'm brining all my own history and baggage to this....so take my posts with more than a few grains of salt, and do what feels best to you. Also- thanks for sharing your story. You really should write a book....

[circlesincircles]

In addition to lacking training in psychodynamic therapy, I'd venture a guess that your T has a dismissive/avoidant attachment style. He takes a counterdependent stance which just exacerbates your anxious attachment. There's no way to know, short of asking, if he's feigning ignorance about how you could possibly care about him, or if he truly doesn't understand because he's not oriented toward seeking and trusting in care and comfort in relationship.

He also seems rigid about responding in ways that don't recreate what you've experienced in other therapies. It's an understandable approach, but also a pretty one-dimensional way of choosing interventions/responses.

On a totally different note, how does your T respond when you're crying, LT? Most of what you describe about your sessions seems pretty intellectualized. I'm sure that's not the whole picture, but I'm wondering if your T ever helps you to slow down and elaborate what you're feeling. Of course, feel free to answer or not. It just seems like he's trying to talk you out of feeling attached to him without any real consideration of the underlying feelings. Actually, as I write this, I have a vague recollection that he makes jokes about using tissues (or is that you?).

I'm impressed with your persistence with this T. I understand your impulse to quit too. As an internet stranger, I'm totally rooting for you!

[DP_2017]

^ I'd say dismissive-avoidant is a great guess for this T based on what I've read about it and him.

[atisketatasket]

Or, possibly, the therapist is a condescending jackass.

[circlesincircles]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Or, possibly, the therapist is a condescending jackass.

I wouldn't rule it out.

[NP_Complete]

Originally Posted by SorryNorma

Jesus wept, what a knob.

You may not know his favorite flavor of ice cream, but you sit in a room with him every week. It's not like you don't know him at all and if he believes that, then I don't know what to think.

After spending several hours a week with my therapist, I feel like I have a pretty good idea of who he is as a person, I just don't know the trivia. And I care about him.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Or, possibly, the therapist is a condescending jackass.

This gets my vote

[RaineD]

Originally Posted by octoberful

Very true with anxiously attached!

Maybe you could tell him about the psychoanalytic method of withholding and blank slate. That promotes transference in me more than anything. (Note that I don't expect any T who hasn't been in that therapy to really understand this concept-you just have to experience it).

It seems so primitive how he looks at MC. MC was enmeshed-that is totally different than an unenmeshed T saying "I care". 2 different things completely!

(I also think Ts who use blanket policies don't understand psychological boundaries or may be lazy or unskilled and easier to just do all or none)

^^^ This!

Your T really seems to have gotten this backwards. God, I can't believe he's a T. Who gave him his license? He needs supervision on attachment theory!

At least for me, the more secure I was in my knowledge that my therapist cared about me, the less obsessed I was with him. Between March and May, I actually reached a point where I rarely thought about my T between sessions. That was the most secure I've ever felt with him. I was still attached, of course, but attachment is not a bad thing. The anxious, obsessive type of attachment is not so good, if only because it's time consuming and distracting.

In June, my T told me his health was getting worse and he was going to have to close his practice soon. That caused me to go back to obsessing because suddenly the relationship was insecure again since I knew I was about to lose him for good.

So, really, being distant and withholding does not make attachment or transference go away. It intensifies transference and anxious/obsessive attachment. It's old news, as mentioned above. Psychoanalysts have been using it for a long, long time. The fact that your T doesn't know this is just...odd. Even if he doesn't practice psychodynamic therapy, didn't he at least go to school where he had to take classes that discussed psychodynamic theory?

I mean, come on!

Bleh, your T really annoys me.

[RaineD]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Or, possibly, the therapist is a condescending jackass.

I seem to recall him being condescending from the beginning.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by RaineD

I seem to recall him being condescending from the beginning.

Well, his first long email to me where he said he wanted to be called Dr. T rather than his first name and went into a long explanation about that led me to say he might be an arrogant d-bag. So, pretty close... he's always had some level of arrogance.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by RaineD

^^^ This!

Your T really seems to have gotten this backwards. God, I can't believe he's a T. Who gave him his license? He needs supervision on attachment theory!

At least for me, the more secure I was in my knowledge that my therapist cared about me, the less obsessed I was with him. Between March and May, I actually reached a point where I rarely thought about my T between sessions. That was the most secure I've ever felt with him. I was still attached, of course, but attachment is not a bad thing. The anxious, obsessive type of attachment is not so good, if only because it's time consuming and distracting.

In June, my T told me his health was getting worse and he was going to have to close his practice soon. That caused me to go back to obsessing because suddenly the relationship was insecure again since I knew I was about to lose him for good.

So, really, being distant and withholding does not make attachment or transference go away. It intensifies transference and anxious/obsessive attachment. It's old news, as mentioned above. Psychoanalysts have been using it for a long, long time. The fact that your T doesn't know this is just...odd. Even if he doesn't practice psychodynamic therapy, didn't he at least go to school where he had to take classes that discussed psychodynamic theory?

I mean, come on!

Bleh, your T really annoys me.

Thanks, RaineD. That's how I feel about attachment, too. The withholding isn't going to make it go away for someone who is anxiously attached like me. I think he's also compounding it somewhat by *sometimes* giving me what I want (such as Stone 2.0 and adding a reminder to an email saying he's not going anywhere). Because then it's like I know he's capable of giving some of it, so I'll push to try to get what I want. Or test him, which I think I'm doing now. It ends up being like "You can say x, but not y? Why can't you just say y?"

I forgot to mention this in the session writeup, but I made the comment that it seems these sorts of ruptures/misunderstandings have come around what I thought was just a sort of throwaway comment near the end of session. Where I expected him to reply a certain way, then he didn't, and it created conflict. Like in this case, my comment about how "I care about your success" vs. "I care about you," I mistakenly thought would lead him to just say "I care about you." Not say he needed time to think about it. With the first stone, when I said I'd gotten comfort from holding it, then said, "I hope you don't think that's weird," I expected him to say "No, it's not weird, I'm glad it helped you." Or something to that effect. Not "It's maybe 10% weird," leading to the other session where I asked him to clarify... I think it's just especially jarring because I hadn't expected either of them to be big things. Yet he somehow seemed to react just fine a couple months ago to my saying I had feelings of platonic love for him, which I expected to be a much bigger deal (not sure why love seemed OK to him but not caring? Since I think of love as a much higher level than caring...) He's just very confusing...

I know he believes in being completely honest, but there are times when maybe that's not so much the best policy with a client. If there's some phrase he's uncomfortable saying or something he's uncomfortable doing, there are ways to handle that without being so blunt...

[Echos Myron redux]

That's a good point LT - how come expressing that you love him didn't generate a "but you don't know me" response but caring about him does? This guy is all kinds of inconsistent. It might be more subtle inconsistency than MC but it has the same effect on you.

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I think he's also compounding it somewhat by *sometimes* giving me what I want (such as Stone 2.0 and adding a reminder to an email saying he's not going anywhere). Because then it's like I know he's capable of giving some of it, so I'll push to try to get what I want. Or test him, which I think I'm doing now. It ends up being like "You can say x, but not y? Why can't you just say y?"

I agree with this, although I'd say more than sometimes, but I'm also not sure of everything you ask him for so It's not something I can accurately say, BUT, and as much as people will be angry for me saying this, its why I try to encourage you to set your own boundaries with sessions, emails etc. He will not likely ever say no to those things and while its ok to have them once in a while, giving them every time, isn't gonna help you much in the long run. It's only gonna keep you testing/pushing him until things at some point probably explode... a bad rupture.
My T always says to ask for what I want, but know that you wont always get it. It may seem harsh but it's basically life, you wont always get what you want or need in life. In your case, I think there is some things he wont say no to for whatever reason, and while I get your attachment style (I've read it a lot lately and it does really fit you) -still sometimes NOT getting what you want is ok.

So many things in that Tuesday write up, didn't sit well with me. No way I'd keep him. I also get that some things you said with Ex MC were helpful for you, (probably like how people hate my T cuz he's very boundary pushing but without the way I have things with him, I'd have quit ages ago).... but anyway, do you know what those specific helpful things are? Do you know current T's stance on them? I'd say there is a lot to think about with this T. Whatever you choose, I support you, but I also am really not a fan of his after this last session. I think there is quite a few of us on this thread feeling similar. Good luck today.

** Adding this, I forgot to say, I agree, love seems to be more of a thing than care. Care is simple/basic you have can for most anyone, love has much stronger emotions with it. Maybe because you clarified platonic? Maybe he was just in a better mood that day? Kinda like my T handled the love thing beautifully but when I told him I was scared I was feeling too close to him, he got spooked and pulled back/changed boundaries. I still don't get that one myself. **

[ArtleyWilkins]

I like this guy actually. He's challenging your patterns of thinking and behavior rather than enabling and feeding it. Without that challenge, just seems like your going to keep repeating the same scenario with every therapist you go to. But only you know what you need.

[SummerTime12]

I like your T LT, but I don’t like how he’s implying that you caring and thinking about other people is so strange or out there. While you may very well be on one far end of the spectrum of “normal” caring/emotionality/etc., I think it’s important for him to realize that he’s equally as far on the other extreme. That’s not a bad thing, but I don’t like how it seems he’s not really respecting your differences and just assumes that he is the baseline “normal” and follows a “correct” way of thinking. There’s not a right or wrong here.. the world needs both types of people to maintain balance. It’s about respect and not shaming someone for being different than you.

[unaluna]

How fast does your mind work that he keeps getting in trouble for not saying what you EXPECTED him to say? Youre talking in the here and now, presumably; its not a scripted talk - how can you EXPECT him to say anything? You dont pull the string and he talks. He SHOULD surprise you with what he says. "Expected" to me implies these are set-ups.

[Polibeth]

Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins

I like this guy actually. He's challenging your patterns of thinking and behavior rather than enabling and feeding it. Without that challenge, just seems like your going to keep repeating the same scenario with every therapist you go to. But only you know what you need.

This! So much this! He is trying really hard not to fall into the same patterns as ex-MC.

One pattern I noticed is that in the "Dear T" thread if he has said or done something that you like/felt reassured by you sign your note "Love, LT" or some version of that. When you are upset/anxious about him you leave out the love. It's just interesting.

You are very factual in relaying your sessions and open to all kinds of feedback - that is awesome!

[ElectricManatee]

One thing that keeps fascinating me about this situation/thread is the underlying debate about whether it is good or bad to meet the client's needs within the therapeutic relationship. And if it is good, then to what degree should it be done? This is why Dr. T really waffled during Stonegate: at first he didn't want to gratify the desire for an object that connected you to him. Then he ultimately ended up doing it anyway, albeit with certain limits that made it less powerful. I am not sure what the ambivalence underneath that feels like, but I don't think it would feel the same as if he had just said, "Sure, it's okay for you to take that stone for as long as you need it." (Translation: I can see why you want it, and that's okay with me.) It seems like giving you a big window into his evolving thought process (including the consultation group) ultimately made the stone thing more about him than about you.

A related but somewhat separate question is, if the therapist agrees to meet some of the client's emotional needs (like being reassured and feeling cared about), can it ever be enough? Or is the client going to keep coming back for more and larger expressions of human connection? Does it mean the client is going to end up wanting endlessly, in a dangerous tangle of enmeshment and (by extension) trampled boundaries?

I know from talking about it that my therapist is oriented toward meeting developmental needs in a limited way. I have had the conversation with her several times, telling her that I'm just an endless pit of need and that anything she gives me will just be consumed and never satisfy. She said that she's heard that from clients many times, and so far it has never been true. And I can see now that sometimes it does satisfy and I feel calm and I don't need to keep chasing her down for more because I know I can have more when I need it. I also know that she understands why I need it and thinks it's perfectly natural, even when I personally think my needs are too much and maybe even a little disgusting. She doesn't encourage me to question or malign my emotional needs, although she does want to explore where they come from and why I hate them so much.

Sometimes I also want things that are completely not realistic, but I feel a huge freedom even in just saying what I want and being able to stand behind it, without conceding that the need is too much or that I won't/shouldn't get it. I have found catharsis in expressing intense anger toward my T when she says no to something I want from her. I hate when she says no, but I love that she carefully absorbs my rage if it erupts in her general direction. That feels like young stuff to me, and it's so deeply satisfying when therapy is a safe place to move through it. I would hate to hear my T say, "Well, I'm just using my experience to tell you how other people in your life would respond to you saying these things" because I would NEVER act like that with people in my life. It's nice to give my calm, cooperative, adult self a break since I suspect (based on my family) that the reasonable adult has been on duty since long before it was developmentally appropriate to do so. And learning to respect/accept all these sides to myself and my emotions is part of feeling whole for the very first time.

Ultimately this is how my T is going to put herself out of a job. She is unlocking parts of me and opening me up to my own needs and encouraging me to care about myself in the same way she cares about me. Plus she encourages me to reach out and to expect good things when I need them. This, in turn, helps me recognize other stable, caring people in my life, reach out to them, and not immediately assume that inevitable relational bumps are happening because I'm a bad, needy person who kind, normal people can't stand (or whatever the negative thought loop is).

Hopefully this didn't get too far off topic. I think this is the root of my fascination with this story because the underlying assumptions around the core issue of getting emotional needs met in therapy is so ambiguous. It seems like yes and no can both be the right answer, and I don't know why that is. I think a different therapist could very easily collude with the parts of me that are disgusted with my unmet emotional needs from childhood, even though I now firmly believe that those unmet needs are the very thing that keeps me stuck. This hypothetical therapist could tell me that the path forward lies in self-(over)control and respecting boundaries by not asking for inappropriate or unattainable things. I have this half-horrified understanding that that would sound perfectly reasonable to me while simultaneously compounding my problems. I actually think that's why other therapists before this one did very little to get to the root of my emotional problems. But maybe another client would need exactly the opposite of what I need. Maybe this is part of why therapy can be so helpful but also so harmful. The way forward is so murky and debatable based on the psychological makeup of the client and the training and personality of the guide they choose.

[DP_2017]

EM

Interesting read. I just wanted to toss in my personal experience to reply to your question on is it ever enough.
For me, yes. I know my t cares. I know I matter. I no longer need ressurance from him. All of it is good for me because too much of that from anyone gets me to pull away. I need distance from people. I'd start to feel smothered and then actually disbelieve the sincerity of things. Probably just my attachment style but I think yes for some people there is enough with emotional closeness and feelings.

I really enjoyed your post though. Well worded.

LT

Good luck with whatever you hope to get from things today

[unaluna]

EM - exactly! So many good points. Be a child! But do it in the room, at the appointed hour. Its the beginning of setting limits for yourself, which is the beginning of setting goals? standards? Idk - good things! for yourself.