[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by NP_Complete

I agree with what you say about person X and person Y being different people, but if person X hurts you it can make it harder to trust person Y. It has nothing to do with how inherently trustworthy Y is. In my experience, that can bleed over into the T relationship. If I've felt hurt by enough people, I start to extrapolate that mistrust onto every relationship, even the one with my therapist. I think for me, in my therapy, it's about trying to loosen up and give people a chance.

This, exactly. I'm glad you understand, including the extrapolating to other relationships. Because this is what I was doing with T saying how he probably doesn't think about me for the rest of the day--I started thinking, if his mind is more like how most people's minds work, does that mean everyone in my life doesn't think of me at all once I'm out of their sight (or not actively texting/emailing them, whatever). I know that's likely not true, but that's where my mind goes.

[growlycat]

Thanks for posting LT. I read most of the thread and you deserve credit for sticking with this t. Someone way back had mentioned that this t is more on the cognitive side which I would agree may not be the best fit for you. But the fact that you are trying to flex to his style says a lot about your growth. I think you are taking the harder path but it does have payoffs.

[RaineD]

LT--I only just read your post about the stone session and most of the post about the session immediately after as well. And I really admire your courage. You kept going and discussed things honestly when I would have shut down as soon as he said creepy.

I do think your T means well, and I think he tries. And I respect your decision to stick with him. Seems like a learning opportunity for both of you.

But, man, your T would have harmed me so much if he were my T. I developed the same intense transference feelings for my T that you did for yours. And if my T had described my feelings, or my associating a transitional object with him and holding it for comfort, as "creepy," it would have caused me irreparable harm (because of the nature of my issues).

Everyone's different, and something that would harm one client could be benign or even helpful to another. But I wonder if this has ever occurred to your T?

[LonesomeTonight]

Thinking now that I may need to terminate or at least take a break. Seeing him for extra session (though I may cancel Thursday) today to address something he said at the end of session. Where we were talking about his email where he was listing examples of his caring. And in session, he said “I care about your success.” A bit later, I said, through tears, how that statement (or “I care about your well-being,” as he’s said before) feel different to me from “I care about you.” I guess maybe I can as hoping he’d just say “I care about you.” Instead, he said he’d have to think about it more, that he didn’t want to give me a half-baked answer at the end of session. But, like, why does he have to think about it? I guess it’s some boundary or whatever (he suggested as much in his email reply to my voicemail). So I’m going in there this afternoon and...I guess I’ll see what he says. But I’m thinking I may need to at least take a break, if not just outright terminate. And now I know a question to ask potential T’s: “are you willing to say to your clients ‘I care about you?’” If not, then bye!

[DP_2017]

I think looking for a t who has experience with strong attachment may be best for you. That could be the big issue here. T is nice and all but your attachment keeps growing and he's unsure how to handle it. Making it up as he goes. He's basically said that before and a t with more experience in this area is probably gonna be best for you in the long run. I'd honestly ask a potential t if they are experienced with strong attachment and explain your history with it. I know it may be hard to leave this t but it could be best for you. There's always the choice to come back to him down the road

I am not sure but have a strong feeling that the filtering "are you willing to say to your clients ‘I care about you?" and a "yes" answer might end up with Ts that are the most fake and could potentially do the most harm to people who want to work on attachment.

[DP_2017]

I'd get a fake vibe from that too. That's why I suggest asking about attachment experience instead

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

I am not sure but have a strong feeling that the filtering "are you willing to say to your clients ‘I care about you?" and a "yes" answer might end up with Ts that are the most fake and could potentially do the most harm to people who want to work on attachment.

Hm, good point. Guess I should just ask about their comfort in working with attached clients.

[ElectricManatee]

If you do decide to check out new therapists, maybe look for somebody who is primarily a relational therapist? I mostly say that because that's what I have, but I think that's key to why she's good with attachment (attachment both within the therapeutic relationship and in past/present relationships in my life). You do want somebody with good boundaries, though, because it can be murky stuff.

[atisketatasket]

LT—if this therapist has otherwise been helpful, why leave over his not saying “I care about you?” I think it would be useful to see that people can care and can be an important part of your life without following a certain script. Yes, someone saying I care about you would be a good short-term reassurance, but long-term reasurance comes from something different.

Here’s another question as a follow-up to Xynesthesia’s—if he now says I care about you, will that mean anything since you basically had to ask him to say it?

I can’t shake the feeling that, while you understand where MC went wrong—too much reassurance, too many broken boundaries until he snapped—you keep trying to get this guy to be more like MC. More reassuring, more communication outside session, more statements like I care about you. But you know how badly that ended up with MC. Please don’t hurt yourself again like that. Try to catch your patterns and interrupt them.

As for seeking a therapist who works with attachment, I dunno—Info works with attachment and her description of what she does sounds a lot like what this guy does: firm boundaries in an adult, caring environment, not creating codependency the way MC did.

Maybe there are other reasons to leave, though, in which case go for it.

[DP_2017]

I agree with most of atat post. Lots of great points there

I just think experience with attachment vs strong attachment are different. So that's why I'd be up front about your history

I also think current t has better boundaries than ex mc but i wouldn't say firm. That could also be something you wanna look for but yes it does seem you are trying to mold him into ex mc and he can't live up to it so your disappointed and frustrated

[unaluna]

What's really going on? This is not about these words. Im just not buying it, sorry. I hope you get at the meat of it this afternoon.

I think you say attachment when you mean control or something else, not sure what exactly.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

And now I know a question to ask potential T’s: “are you willing to say to your clients ‘I care about you?’” If not, then bye!

So what's the payoff if current T would say "I care about you?" I don't see the life changing magic of that, except perhaps it would somehow prove that he's not just another person who will give you less than what you want. Until the next time.

Perhaps it's not a useful inquiry, but I'd encourage reflecting on whether this is really about him saying a very precise phrase because you want him to and because it holds some specific meaning for you. Or whether there is a broader issue, such as in your current life there is an important person or two who give you less than what you want, or some other relationship issue.

Your thinking seems reactive to me and it feels similar to the process of how you left MC, and at least in my experience reactivity driving my decisions doesn't make for the best outcome. I have no investment in whether you stay or leave or quit therapy or whatever choice is best for you, but I think how one does it and what you can learn from it can move you forward or not.

[JaneTennison1]

You cannot control what people say, you can ask for what you need but you may not get it. I see a pattern where extra session, email and thought goes into a t or mc and what I wonder is what is being avoided? It sounded like in your last session you had some deep conversation. Is all of this an attempt to avoid any further deep discussion? Or is it an excuse to see him or email him?

I ask because I do this. When things get intense with t I will avoid it by creating a conflict to deal with or to "prove" t is untrustworthy and therefore I dont have to tell her anything else or I can focus on the fight and not on the scary issues.

I dont like the way my t says things sometimes or I think of better ways to phrase things but really I dont need perfect I just need someone who is good enough.

[LonesomeTonight]

Thanks for all the comments. I'm not entirely sure what's going on with me right now. I know it's not simply about the "I care about you." I think maybe some of it is about the construct of the therapeutic relationship in general. Like...maybe he cares about me but has to think about whether he should tell me that or not. Like whether it would be good for me therapeutically or not. And I hate that. I just want him to be human.

But I think a lot of this is also about how he's hurt me in the past, like with the stone, etc. I don't feel fully accepted by him. I hate that he thinks I'm some sort of weirdo (of course he didn't use that term!) because I care about and think about people so much. Like he said yesterday how I'm on the extreme end of the spectrum with that. I mean, maybe part of it is what I said yesterday about shooting the messenger. Like him telling me the harsh truth that most people don't think about other people much and just think about themselves or about nothing at all. (It was more complex than that).

I think it's also...I'm sort of trying to mold him into a certain type of T, and he just isn't. I see glimmers where "yes, maybe he gets it" like with giving me a transitional object, being OK with fairly frequent email, reassuring me that he's not going anywhere, etc. But then stuff happens to remind me that he's not psychodynamically trained, he's not that good at working with attachment, etc. And he uses "I give honest feedback" as a cover for saying some rather harsh things. I just don't know if I can deal with that anymore. I think I need a T who genuinely believes in and practices unconditional positive regard.

So...I think this is maybe me trying to convince the part of me that's all attached to him to just get away from him, so that I don't keep getting hurt.

Possible trigger:

I shouldn't want to SH because of something he said. Not something that came up in therapy, like a difficult thing from my past, but something he said about me. I shouldn't have SU ideations because of him. How is that helping me?

I just think I need to be done...not sure if I'm taking a break from therapy in general for a bit or finding someone else.

[atisketatasket]

LT—if you do decide to move on, I would suggest working with a woman. I think somehow these guys represent an ideal father and an ideal husband to you. At least get rid of the second component.

On another note, and I think I have said this to you before, unconditional positive regard is not incompatible with honest feedback. A therapist can have that kind of regard for a client and still say “this is how your behavior affects me” and “I think this.” It’s like you love your daughter even when she is mid-tantrum. I don’t think it’s possible for change to happen in therapy without some kind of honest feedback.

[SlumberKitty]

Hey LT--I was just thinking that everyone disappoints us sometimes. Even my former T who I love ridiculously so--wasn't perfect and let me down at times. If this is some sort of deal breaker for you then it is what it is, but if it is about the T not saying specific words and such and that just making you feel like crap, that happens sometimes in therapy. And in life. People don't always say what we need them to say. People don't always do what we want them to do. It doesn't mean they don't care about us very very much. It just means that they're human. I don't know your T's reasons for not saying "I care about you" but I do think he does care about you based on what you've written. (((hugs))) I'm sorry you are going through this right now. Kit.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

LT—if you do decide to move on, I would suggest working with a woman. I think somehow these guys represent an ideal father and an ideal husband to you. At least get rid of the second component.

On another note, and I think I have said this to you before, unconditional positive regard is not incompatible with honest feedback. A therapist can have that kind of regard for a client and still say “this is how your behavior affects me” and “I think this.” It’s like you love your daughter even when she is mid-tantrum. I don’t think it’s possible for change to happen in therapy without some kind of honest feedback.

Thanks, I may need to try a woman again, but probably a younger one, as I had lots of negative maternal transference with ex-T (who is my mom's age). That does make sense re: UPR. The thing is, my T has explicitly said he doesn't believe in unconditional positive regard. The analogy with my daughter is a good one though. But I also feel like...I mean, my T has also said that if someone disrespects his feelings, he stops caring about them for a bit and seemed puzzled that I wasn't like that. He seems to think I'm just some anomaly in humankind. I need a T who doesn't think I'm some aberration, but who understands and respects my differences. (Ex-T also seemed critical that I was particularly tuned in to other people and implied that I cared too much.)

Hm, I'm starting to think that I have a similar record with T's as you do, you just realize you need to leave much more quickly than I do!

[ElectricManatee]

I also think it's fine to be really upset, think hard about leaving, and then put off any big decisions until later when you're feeling calmer. My T and I have done great work together, yet I have seriously contemplated terminating at least twice. Both times I was unbelievably upset with her because something had happened between us that was like a giant red-hot poker into a sensitive spot for me.

Therapy is hard and confusing, and it can sometimes be impossible to tell whether you're upset because therapy is supposed to be hard or because the situation you're in isn't right for you. Unfortunately, nobody here can really know which one it is for you either.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I also think it's fine to be really upset, think hard about leaving, and then put off any big decisions until later when you're feeling calmer. My T and I have done great work together, yet I have seriously contemplated terminating at least twice. Both times I was unbelievably upset with her because something had happened between us that was like a giant red-hot poker into a sensitive spot for me.

Therapy is hard and confusing, and it can sometimes be impossible to tell whether you're upset because therapy is supposed to be hard or because the situation you're in isn't right for you. Unfortunately, nobody here can really know which one it is for you either.

The last part you said is exactly what I'm struggling with. Is it just because T challenges me and I don't want to deal with that anymore? Is it because he tells me things I don't want to hear (including about other people)? Or is it that he's a bad fit and is ultimately hurting more than helping? I don't know...

But you make a good point that maybe I should wait till I'm more emotionally stable to make a decision. Like to not go in there today and say "I quit!" But maybe to say I'm thinking of quitting and talk about it. Then...either keep my Thursday session and discuss more then or cancel that, then go Monday and maybe discuss more. Or take a week or two off.

[InkyBooky]

LT- I just want to reach out and say that I can understand exactly where you're coming from. I have so many of the same issues. I don't know the answers (in fact, I'm equally as confused because I am struggling with the same dilemma in my own therapy).

Anyway, that is all I wanted to say...that I get it and I feel your pain, hurt and confusion. Thanks for posting so honestly here. It has helped me more than you know. Safe hugs.

The issue with reassurance when you feel hollow is that there is never enough reassurance to fill the void. You will be forced to escalate your demands from him because it will become harder and harder for him to reassure you. You had a similar struggle with the transitional object. That is no longer enough. You now need to hear that he cares about you. When that phrase is no longer enough, you will need something stronger. It's horrible and sad, but crow-barring phrases and objects out of him is not going to help you along your therapeutic process as it is ultimately a circular and fruitless approach.

Perhaps he won't say he cares because he doesn't care about you in the way you want him to. I have read lots of posters reassuring you that he cares and I am not sure how useful that is for you because it is another example of how endless the need for reassurance can be.

[wheeler]

My T has said on a few occasions that she cares and I matter. Those admissions have help me feel safe. I don’t believe I need more. I would always choose her to be a good, and caring therapist above anything else.

LT, my personal impression is that you are indeed making quite significant progress with this T, just don't like sometimes how he does not validate your attachment-related needs that you are trying to get from him. You have already tried female T and MC who was maybe more "relational", but where did they take you really? If you are interested in working on your anxiety about people/relationships further, to me it seems like this T is good because he brings out those things (maybe a female would not, at least not to the same degree) but does not exacerbates them by reassuring and validating all your feelings and needs. I have the feeling that a T who would do that would just keep you stuck in the same state even if perhaps it would be a bit more comfortable at times. I agree with SorryNorma that getting more of those validations would probably never enough. This is why I often say that the kind of attachments some people develop for their Ts are pretty addiction-like. In that sense, validating a lot would be a bit like a spouse enabling the drugging or drinking of an addict, for example. Encouraging something that clearly has adverse effects and blocks important things in life.

Also, maybe I am wrong but I have a sense that your T might be exaggerating things a bit at times either for the sake of challenging you to go against your internal current or maybe because of his own avoidant tendencies or both. Stuff like he almost never thinks about you once the session is over. I think that's quite impossible, the brain does not work that way unless there is some quite significant damage to it. Perhaps you could ask him if this is true and he exaggerates sometimes on purpose?

[Deejay14]

LT I see the pattern here. T is doing his best not to fall into MC inconsistent ways and you are trying to get out of him what you think you need to hear- kind of controlling. You have articulated well how MC went all wrong and then you terminate yet you are still left with all the negative stuff. I would urge you to continue with him through the process. Until this gets resolved you will continue to feel slighted because he didn't say exactly what you want. And you will continue to bounce around with therapists whether they are attachment oriented or not.