![]() |
FAQ/Help |
Calendar |
Search |
#151
|
||||
|
||||
Warning: really long! T bonus session this morning. I got there a little early, got an iced tea (which I initially typed as "Iced T"!) at the coffee shop downstairs, went upstairs to his office to find waiting room door locked (was 8:20). I stood awkwardly in the hall for 5 minutes till T emerged from the elevator. He opened the door, took a few minutes to get things ready in there, then retrieved me (on time).
I sat down and said I felt like I probably shouldn't have taken this session, that I was sorry. T: "Why are you sorry? You certainly don't have to apologize to me for taking it." Me: "Yeah I guess you wouldn't have offered if it wasn't OK. I guess some people just said I shouldn't take it. Or that you shouldn't have offered it due to my boundary issues. And I feel I should have just waited till Monday." T: "It's OK that you're here." Me: "OK, thanks." I said how I'd gone to do work in a coffee shop after session, that I was fine at first, but then on the way home I got really upset and stayed that way much of the night. And some of my thoughts were going to dark places. That I was doing better now, but those thoughts were what made me feel I should see him today, because they concerned me. T (in a really compassionate voice): "I'm really sorry you had such a tough night." Me: "Thanks." T asked if there was something specific from last session that bothered me. I said part of it was when he was sharing what he'd told the consulting group about the stone, the way he'd characterized me. That he'd told them I had attachment and boundary issues. So I wondered...is that how he sees me, what he thinks of me? T: "I could see where you would think that. But no, that's not how I think of you. When I was sharing with the group, I had to give a bit of background, some context. I wouldn't have time to get into everything about you. Plus, the more information I give, the more chance you could be identifiable, like maybe you'd be in a PTA meeting with one of them and they could figure out it was you." Me: "OK, I understand." T: "I also had to give a sense of what you're in therapy for, why you see me." Me: "OK, that makes sense. Like...maybe if I was here say,solely for grief counseling, they might interpret it differently." T: "That's a great example. Because then it could be more that the stone would be something you'd need just temporarily, then once you dealt with grief more, it might not be needed." A lightbulb went off in my head. "OK, I think I just had a revelation. I know this isn't the same thing as grief, but...when I asked for the stone from you, I'd just terminated with ex-MC around that time. I know it's not the same as the grief example, but...maybe I was grieving that loss, and it's part of why the stone seemed so important to me." T: "Oh, I hadn't thought of that. It makes sense though. Why you would attach so much meaning to it. Hm." Me: "Yeah, and then when you were bothered by it and I had to give it back...it felt like a rejection. And I'd already felt rejection from ex-MC." T: "Rejection...hm, I hadn't thought of it that way. I guess it could feel like a rejection." Me: "And also...going back to childhood stuff...it was like a rejection because I was feeling something that I wasn't supposed to feel. Like I wasn't supposed to be feeling connected to you." T: "Like I said in the one e-mail, it is OK to feel connected to me. We have a connection. We're sitting in this room together talking, so that makes us connected. And I'm vested in your well-being." Me: "OK. But again, it felt like a rejection due to my feelings, like inappropriate feelings. Kind of like when ex-T admitted that she did hug some clients--yes I know you don't hug and that's fine--but then when I asked she told me she didn't hug me because I had some maternal transference. So it felt I was getting punished for it. And eventually she did hug me, but then it seemed all complicated because I didn't know how often it was OK to ask for a hug, like if it was a tough enough session. I actually kind of just prefer the regular handshake at the end, it's expected and simpler." T: "OK." Me: "This all brings up how my mom would say certain feelings for people were inappropriate. Like, I couldn't have platonic feelings of caring for a male friend, it had to be more than that. Saying with my gay male boss from [mall store where I worked in high school/early college], that she didn't believe me when I said I wasn't in love with him (I wasn't!), that 'Methinks thou doth protest too much.'" T: "Wow, that's almost...diabolical. Making little digs like that, not believing you." Me: "Yeah...I wonder if that could be part of why I have trouble trusting my own feelings and thoughts? Because my mom didn't trust them?" T: "That could be." Me: "Hm..." He said how it was clear I looked for approval from my mom (we'd discussed that before), that I tried to follow her rules. But it seemed like her rules were really complicated. I agreed. That I figured out "doing well in school" met her approval, but then I'd get a C in phys ed or chorus and felt that wasn't acceptable. Or how she wouldn't stop reminding me the one time I forgot to turn in a homework assignment. But then other stuff, I wasn't sure how to meet her expectations. Like she had some image of who I was supposed to be, and many things didn't fit that image, like my being an introvert. And I'd still try to meet her expectations, there, but... T said: "It was exhausting?" Me: "Yes." He said how it would be interesting if "Little LT" could have had "Adult LT's" brain in her head and said certain things to my mom during childhood. Like how I'm an introvert so I handle things differently and explained all that, maybe it would have helped alter that part in the relationship. (I'm amused, picturing 4-year-old me saying that stuff.) T: "I hope at some point, maybe 6-12 months from now, you can be talking about your mom and say, 'What the F*** did she know???' And really mean it." Me: "Yeah it would be nice to be able to do that!" He brought up core beliefs. He said he felt like a big thing for me is wanting to be fully understood and accepted by someone. That he'd been aware of that since his first session with me. Me: "Wow, really, you knew since then?" T: "Well, I think you mentioned something about it related to ex-MC." Me: "OK, that makes sense." T: "I got the sense the you felt ex-MC really understood you. And that had a strong effect on you." Me (starting to cry): "Yes, I felt really understood and accepted by him. Even him just saying something like 'It's OK' could really affect me. I guess because I didn't get that from my parents?" T: "Yes." Me: "It felt almost...intoxicating. Not sure if that's the right word." T: "No, that seems like the perfect word. Because if you missed it before, to get the feeling can be really powerful." Me: "It caused a physical reaction at times, too." T: "Yes, probably a huge rush of endorphins." Me: "I think it's especially hard when I think someone really understands me, then something happens that makes me realize they don't." T: "That's very black and white thinking, that someone either understands you or doesn't." Me: "Yeah...I think some of that is what happened with the stone, where it felt like you were accepting and understanding in giving me that, then it turned out to be the total opposite." T: "I'd like to be able to get you to a place where it's not so black and white, how you can realize that someone can be very understanding about certain things, but maybe not other things. And that's OK." Me: "Yeah, it would be good to get to that place." I said how maybe it helped him to understand more why I react this way, in explaining stuff from childhood. That I was sharing the source of my issues. T: "Yes, it's like your origin story, like the point where you were bitten by the radioactive spider." Me: "Except my superpower is wanting to be understood and accepted? That's not very useful!" We both laughed. T: "Yeah, kinda bad luck there, I guess!" T said that I also seem to have an intense fear that people are angry at me, especially if they're angry but don't tell me. That I'll bend over backward to avoid that. Me: "Yeah, that is a big fear of mine. Hm...I wonder if part of my reaction to the stuff from yesterday could be related to your saying that...why couldn't I just accept your being uncomfortable with the stone? I think that made me wonder if maybe you were angry with me about that." T: "No I'm not angry or irritated with you at all about that. If you and I were friends, and something like this happened, and you kept pushing me to explain, then yes, I might get irritated. But this is therapy, and these are issues coming up that you need to work through. So it's different." Me: "OK, good. Plus, I guess...if you were angry at me, you'd tell me?" T: "Yes, exactly, I'd let you know." Me: "OK." I said something else that bothered me from the previous session was his saying the he felt he didn't know me, that I didn't talk enough about myself. Me: "Yes, we talk a lot about the relationship, but that also gives you lots of clues about me, how I interact with you." T: "True, it does." Me: "I hope you realize that so much of this, the way I react to things you say and do, isn't really about you--it's about stuff from my past." T: "Yes, but some of the times before when we've discussed it, it's been more about the present, like about our relationship. But I feel like today, we're digging deeper into the past stuff. Like, in my notes for today, I'd say we talked about your mom and childhood, not about our relationship." Me: "Oh OK. So we should be doing more of that, delving into past stuff, like if I'm triggered by something with you." T: "Yes." I said how I'd heard a rupture that's repaired can make a relationship stronger. T agreed and said not just about therapy, but with friendships, marriages. But how ruptures that aren't repaired leave a wound that affects the relationship. And he gets the sense I have many of those with my mom. I said yes. I noticed we were almost out of time. I said I had one insight from being awake at 4 a.m. that I wanted to mention really quickly, that we could address in a future session. That I wondered if his implying I should give back the stone was kind of like my mom taking away a toy when I expressed an OCD-related fear (that food had gone bad). Like something was being taken away because of mental health issues. T found that interesting. I said I guessed there was a lot of stuff that came up today that needed further exploration, and he agreed. T: "I think this was a very productive session. I'm glad you came in today." Me: "I'm glad I did, too." It was 9:25. We didn't need to schedule, so I just went over and paid. Shook hands as he said, "Have a good weekend." Me: "You too." |
![]() DP_2017, ElectricManatee, Middlemarcher, NP_Complete, Polibeth, ruh roh, wheeler
|
#152
|
||||
|
||||
Sounds productive.
I still would not have gone, but it's my own boundaries I've set for myself to deal with the attachment, however if it helped, thats ok I guess. Anyway, speaking from experience, YES, repairing ruptures is one of the best things I've forced myself to do in therapy. We are better than we have ever been and I'm finally to the point where I don't constantly need him to remind me he isn't leaving. I relate alot to your mom issues. I feel for you. ![]() |
![]() LonesomeTonight
|
![]() Anonymous45127, LonesomeTonight
|
#153
|
|||
|
|||
I can relate to the mom issues too - however, I do not rush to share any details of my life with my mom. She finds out what she finds out but I rarely share anything with her due to her extreme reactions to stuff when I was a teenager. Since going the route of non-sharing my life is so much less complicated.
My job involves dealing with sometimes the worst of humanity, everyone is always angry at me, and no one accepts me at all - so yeah, cannot relate to any of that as I don't even give those things a second thought. I'm glad that you had a productive session. Good job! |
![]() LonesomeTonight
|
#154
|
||||
|
||||
I'm glad you went - I was hoping you would, but figured you knew best whether it was likely to help or not.
|
![]() LonesomeTonight
|
#155
|
||||
|
||||
I'm glad the session went well...my first takeaway from the past few write-ups is that you ask questions in how therapy should "be," and he either affirms it or takes a new approach...
|
![]() circlesincircles, LonesomeTonight
|
#156
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
He seems very committed to you as a patient, and I dont think he will either abandon you or overly gratify desires to become enmeshed or too close. That is good. That is safety and learning. The question that lingers from the last few sessions to me is: can he tolerate enough closeness and connection for you to feel at ease, does he have the imagination and training and theoretical proclivity to sucessfully treat anxious attachment so that it becomes an earned secure attachment? You are very attentive to therapy ( ars poetica) and he seems to want you to just do therapy without thinking abut therapy. Art about art, writing about writing, therapy about therapy. He clearly thinks that is his space, his lane, but it's such a wonderful part of how you watch & observe therapy even as it is happening. I think he will discourage the part of you who is interested in the process of what is happening to you and happening between you, which is actually having an alert alive mind, and not so much boundary issues. I am curious about how this will unfold. He doesnt want to be a figure in your life himself very much; he wants to dwell on the other characters in your story from "real" life without affecting you overly much or you have strong feelings about him. It's very sex lies and videotape. Some people want to be special to their clinician, but seem like you might want your clinician to be a special person, the one who is a singular person . I dont know if the T is that(?) I do think he seems grounded and he cares about you as a patient on his watch. He is hammering home the limits, his limits, the limits of therapy, but he still emails you and gives you extra sessions, so he is showing you he has a lot to offer. I am unsure what is to come in the next chapters
__________________
Living things don’t all require/ light in the same degree. Louise Gluck |
![]() CantExplain, circlesincircles, LonesomeTonight, scorpiosis37
|
#157
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Thanks. Yeah, it does seem like he's shifting his approach in some ways, assuming that's what you meant. Which I feel is a good thing, since I think ideally T's should be able to adapt a bit to their clients. |
#158
|
||||
|
||||
Boundaries can make the relationship narrower. In particular, they limited the subjects I could talk about. I sometimes felt them as barriers.
By this I mean: 1. I resented them. 2. They damaged the connection between us, which at times was pretty thin anyway.
__________________
Mr Ambassador, alias Ancient Plax, alias Captain Therapy, alias Big Poppa, alias Secret Spy, etc. Add that to your tattoo, Baby! |
![]() fille_folle, LonesomeTonight
|
#159
|
||||
|
||||
Responding to your IST comment here:
Quote:
Yeah, he's said before that he doesn't believe clients should be able to say anything to him. As he has feelings, too. Which does bother me, because I've been under the impression that a client shouldn't have to worry about the T's feelings--I mean, not counting things like threats or something. Like I thought that was part of why we pay them, to focus on us, to deal with their feelings on their own time. Otherwise, how is it so much different from a friendship, like if I happened to be friends with a psychologist? But then, in many ways, I really like this T and he's really been helping me, so... |
![]() CantExplain
|
#160
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
One T explicity said that good manners don't apply in therapy.
__________________
Mr Ambassador, alias Ancient Plax, alias Captain Therapy, alias Big Poppa, alias Secret Spy, etc. Add that to your tattoo, Baby! |
![]() LonesomeTonight
|
#161
|
|||
|
|||
It does sound like a productive session.
What occurred to me as I read it was the core beliefs/your superpower/the connection between your relationship "overtalk" and the stuff from your childhood was that the next step might be to examine how the desire to be fully understood and accepted (as you pointed out, an impossibility) mucks about with you and your life in the present. Perhaps it's partly about developing your self acceptance and self understanding-- like a muscle, exercising it at times when you feel bad (like your T's description of what he said to his consulting group). Like, what was getting in the way of your "who cares what these people who do not know who I am think about me?" Or if your real worry was what your T thinks, understanding that trying to control or manage or produce what anyone thinks or feels is a boundary issue. I think with greater self understanding and self acceptance, needing it from others is naturally reduced. And putting so much focus on getting it from others rather than nurturing that in yourself does seem counterproductive in so many ways. I think there are ways to use therapy that are not about trying to get what you need or trying to get what you missed in childhood. I'm not trying to tell you that you need to do therapy differently but I just doubt that this is really possible, especially when you've already had therapy that didn't work for you. I don't know your goals, and you so do not have to share them, but it just feels like a LT who accepts herself and understands herself better will be happier and healthier. Also, I just want to say that I think you're making great progress, and the above was not intended as criticism. Feel free to tell me to F off. |
![]() CantExplain, elisewin, fille_folle, LonesomeTonight, scorpiosis37, unaluna
|
#162
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
![]() I agree, I've never heard it either. Kinda sad.... but there is always gonna be limits, they are still human. My T has not told me I can't discuss certain issues but I realized in May that I pushed his comfort limit, and it made things terrible in the relationship, it's not worth risking that again so I know what I can't bring up anymore, to avoid that. |
![]() CantExplain, LonesomeTonight
|
#163
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
After all, MC didn’t speak up and look what happened there. I don’t get the sense his feelings are running riot over your relationship. But his feelings lead to his boundaries, just like yours lead to your boundaries. |
![]() CantExplain, DP_2017, feralkittymom, LonesomeTonight, Middlemarcher, unaluna, UnderRugSwept, WarmFuzzySocks
|
#164
|
||||
|
||||
Here's an example where speaking freely led to a good result.
I famously told Madame T that her hair was a "non-performing asset". Which you could say was both rude and irrelevant. But she said, "Is there anything about your own appearance that could perform better?" And I realised that I dressed not to please anyone or even to please myself, but to annoy my mother. Which was pointless because she was already dead. So I was actually free to dress in other ways.
__________________
Mr Ambassador, alias Ancient Plax, alias Captain Therapy, alias Big Poppa, alias Secret Spy, etc. Add that to your tattoo, Baby! |
![]() SalingerEsme
|
![]() atisketatasket, emeraldheart, growlycat, LonesomeTonight, SalingerEsme, unaluna
|
#165
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Also, in my friendships, it is not all focused on myself. My friend the psychiatrist (who does mostly therapy) talks about her stuff, both deep stuff from her childhood and her struggles in current life, what she wants for her future, with me. It's a mutual relationship and T is not mutual. I think if I started asking my friend to give me free therapy we would not be friends anymore. I am friend to her and she is a friend to me, and that is so clearly not like therapy. The lack of mutuality in T, or the focus on yourself and your problems and issues, does not mean that there are no boundaries. Boundaries surely are different from T to T and some T's may allow clients to scream or otherwise be nasty towards them, but those are not the ones I would choose. So if a T asserts boundaries within the professional relationship, which may be the functional equivalent of the statement "I have feelings" as an explanation, you can either go with them, attempt to get him to change (always a losing proposition, in my opinion, in any relationship), or find someone with the boundaries you like. I have no opinion on your T's boundaries, as I think judging anyone in this way is counterproductive for me. Might be worth some discussion with him about whether it is the right fit for you, whether you need someone you can say anything to or who will email you without charging or the like. |
![]() DP_2017, Erebos, fille_folle, LonesomeTonight, scorpiosis37, unaluna, WarmFuzzySocks
|
#166
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
But if her reaction to your statement of "too skinny" was "I would kindly ask you to not mention my appearance" and then you commented on her hair, I would think it was rude because she asked you not to go there. In your case, she handled it appropriately and turned the discussion back around on you, she didn't comment on your assessment. That's why it worked, because her response was to ask you to focus on you, not herself. IMO. I comment about my T in some way fairly often. I once asked why his pinky finger "looked so weird" and he told me of the childhood accident that caused it. I often mention the "look on his face" and ask him to explain why he has it. I once talked so much about the guy in my tai chi class who took off his shoes (not really a thing in tai chi) and his bare feet were so stinky I could hardly focus on anything else. He said in response, "I don't think my feet stink." I think that T's see commentary about themselves by the client as important clues as to what the client is trying to tell them about themselves or their experience in the world. I really don't think that commentary about the T is generally off limits but that's different than if the T says they are uncomfortable discussion X (about the T), then that should be the end of it. If a T says, I will not go there, then you can like it or lump it. It's not about "speaking freely" at all, and it is up to the person whether they want to clam up if they are told x is off limits. There's A to W and Y and Z still left to discuss. There's nothing about being told the other person doesn't want to discuss something that requires them to do anything but be focused on anything else. Again, IMO. |
![]() CantExplain, fille_folle, unaluna
|
#167
|
|||
|
|||
I don’t like your T’s interpretation of you having poor boundaries just because you get so affected by people and what they say. That is more a sensitivity and or/self esteem issue to me.
Also this ... Quote:
|
![]() SalingerEsme
|
![]() LonesomeTonight, NP_Complete, SalingerEsme
|
#168
|
||||
|
||||
I think it is perfectly fine to not think back on interactions. I mean, he did say he thinks about it if something tips him off that something was amiss. I don't think he is in some way wrong for not devoting the same time that some other people do reflecting back on what appear to him to be normal, nothing-out-of-the-ordinary interactions. I don't think that him devoting more time to thinking about such things would neccessarily add any insight.
|
![]() CantExplain, feralkittymom, LonesomeTonight, Middlemarcher
|
#169
|
|||
|
|||
This thread is very curious to me. I can't imagine it is helpful to have the intimacy of therapy sessions retold with a view to commentary from anonymous strangers on the internet. It feels as if you are killing something of the relationship. You analyse every sentence from the session and in inviting others to do the same, a strange lifeless script emerges.
It feels as if there is no limit to your thirst for discussing your therapist and the relationship. This thread feels like it plays into an unhealthy desire. The thread seems macabre to me, the therapeutic equivalent of people rubber necking at a car accident on the motorway. And yes, this comment is a part of that rubber necking... |
![]() East17, Erebos, Mully, scorpiosis37, unaluna
|
#170
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
![]() fille_folle
|
#171
|
||||
|
||||
I admit I am totally nosy about the latest news on LT's relationship with her therapist. However, I don't think you can say it's the equivalent of "rubber necking at a car accident." Making out that LT's therapy journey is some sort of disaster is both inaccurate and unkind. As for us "rubber-neckers," many people here struggle with attachment, like LT, and it's damned valuable to hear about someone else's experiences in therapy. As for the unhealthy desire you mention, that sort of makes sense. All I can say is that for me, writing about my sessions actually helps me process them (I write on another site, not here) and also deal with post-session separation anxiety. It's easier to get back to my life once I write about a session.
|
![]() SalingerEsme
|
![]() Anonymous45127, CantExplain, growlycat, LonesomeTonight, rainbow8, SalingerEsme
|
#172
|
||||
|
||||
Is it possible to unthank on here? I accidentally clicked on the thank link and can't undo it... I don't agree with this posters comments. Sorry LT.
Quote:
__________________
To the world you might be just one person; but to one person you might be the world. |
![]() fille_folle
|
#173
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
![]() fille_folle, LonesomeTonight
|
#174
|
|||
|
|||
I don't mean to be unkind. I want OP to be safe and this kind of exposure doesn't feel comfortable. That's also an indication of my issues, of course.
|
![]() LonesomeTonight, Mully, unaluna
|
#175
|
||||
|
||||
There ought to be a “remove your thanks” link at the bottom of the post you thanked on the web version. On Tapatalk I don’t think you can.
|
![]() Anonymous45127
|