[JaneTennison1]

The more he pulls away from what you need, the more you are intent on making him understand. Like a pattern doomed to be repeated until you "get it right" It seems like you feel you need too much and either the other person fulfills those desires until they get "tired and go away" or you have to explain why you have the needs and desires you do, both options seem to leave you empty and I'm wondering what is the pay off in repeating the pattern, what do you want to get right?

I also wonder what would be the harm in controlling some impulses. If he makes you cry and feel badly, where is the harm in containing that rather than requesting an email or a session, is this a test of him to see if he will still meet your needs?

[Sheffield]

Hi LT
Firstly, I always anticipate an interesting and thought provoking read when I see activity on one of your threads
I’m one of the people who remembers very little of what was said during my appointments-I remember body language,nuanced moments and how my body reacted (gut noises,sweating ,fidgeting,nervous coughing etc) so your word recall shows how differently we all interpret the sensory overload that is ‘therapy”

I may be wildly off here but thought I’d throw something out(apologies if it has been addressed previously)
Your T is aware that you post a lot of detail on here I believe ?
Is it possible that when you present a highly emotionally charged question with potential for great damage to be done or a situation he may not be entirely comfortable or familiar with that he either overthinks or blurts something out because he’s subconsciously aware that the interaction will be discussed fairly widely on a support forum- the key here being the word “support”

It just occurred to me that in my job as a veterinary surgeon every word or movement I make in clinic is recorded and I have no issue with that or justifying what I said and did in court (cruelty/neglect) or to the governing body in case of a complaint but if I knew my words/actions were going to be posted online and discussed would It be as easy to be true to myself- should be but somehow it feels different- IDK just some thoughts

All the very best LT - therapeutic relationships can be acutely and repeatedly painful

[Waterloo12345]

EM's post is really interesting and in part is why I don't agree with some of the posts that say Dr T is incompetent (I paraphrase).

It seems like LT came with a significant attachment history and a challenging backgrd (no judgment LT - I am so the same) so Dr T needs to act in an individualized way with her - not necessarily how he would act to someone with no attachment or not such deep rooted concerns.

He's not prefect - for me there is a lot of intellectualisation going on and he gives lots of extras (like sessions and emails (I would fall down the rabbit hole of seeing him every day if mine allowed that) but for me he's trying, he's good enough.

On EM's post I tend to the thinking that development needs should be met, my T is trying to meet mine, and my experience and hope is that they are/will lessen in time. I need a lot of reminding, and an incident can throw me back, but it's not a never ending hole, although she may have felt different over the last year! But it does take meeting that person who is of the same view and can actually do it.

ETA: LT you have my huge respect; I couldn't subject myself to such scrutiny. Good luck!!

Originally Posted by unaluna

How fast does your mind work that he keeps getting in trouble for not saying what you EXPECTED him to say? Youre talking in the here and now, presumably; its not a scripted talk - how can you EXPECT him to say anything? You dont pull the string and he talks. He SHOULD surprise you with what he says. "Expected" to me implies these are set-ups.

That's a big part of what trust is/can be about...believing that someone will act in a certain, consistent way.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by octoberful

That's a big part of what trust is/can be about...believing that someone will act in a certain, consistent way.

Seriously? I know my t will be there for my appointment. If i could predict what he was going to say, i wouldnt need to talk to him!

Did i misunderstand your point? If so, im sorry.

[JaneTennison1]

Originally Posted by octoberful

That's a big part of what trust is/can be about...believing that someone will act in a certain, consistent way.

Agreed, however people dont always answer in the way you expect or on script. People react the way they do. I trust that my t wont shout at me, I trust she will be fair with her answer but I cannot predict to 100% what her answer will be or make her stick to the script in my head.

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I think you're exactly right. Ex-MC was definitely enmeshed, so his saying and doing things had a different effect on me than current T saying/doing them. Plus, some stuff that ex-MC did was helpful, so T doesn't need to throw it all away. He doesn't have to do the opposite. And that's a good idea to mention the blank slate transference thing--that's a psychoanalytic thing, right? Freudian? Ex-MC was the opposite of a blank slate, but for someone with a particular attachment style, it probably doesn't really matter how a T/other authority figure presents themselves. They'll attach anyway. Maybe I need to try to explain that to T (even though I shouldn't have to!)

I'm not sure that would help your T as much as going through this type of therapy himself but who knows-maybe worth a try. It's really easy to sense after having a very neutral T where you analyze what's coming from you and what's coming from T.

That's where it appears (to me) issues often arise from-enmeshment vs healthy attachment on both sides and not knowing or being aware of the difference.

These are just observations but I think root causes for much of the lack of agreement in the best way to handle these areas and the application of these concepts.

Example of enmeshed caring -

• Therapist avoids addressing certain topics in fear of upsetting you because deep down inside they are afraid of being abandoned by you abruptly quitting.
  
• Therapist is enstranged from his own child so gets overly invested in client because client helps meet needs to be a parent they can't be.
  
• Caring due to need to be needed to feel worthy. The client craves caring, so the T expressing more caring hooks client and client is overly dependent

Examples of unenmeshed caring-

• Therapist is present for client in session but doesn't check client emails from home frequently (as opposed to worrying about client or hoping they email and checking repeatedly and feeling relieved or happy when client writes)
  
• Therapist has genuine concern but ultimately client is not that important to T that disruptions don't lead to significant mood change or behaviors in T.
  
• Therapist not overly invested in client being 'healed' or getting better and can let it go. Recognizes limitations and client autonomy and accepts the client is her own person.
  

Unenmeshed can be difficult to describe because it's the absence of enmeshment.

You do sound better after quitting psychodynamic therapy. Is stuff in your life outside of therapy better or different? Just curious if you feel like answering.

Originally Posted by JaneTennison1

Agreed, however people dont always answer in the way you expect or on script. People react the way they do. I trust that my t wont shout at me, I trust she will be fair with her answer but I cannot predict to 100% what her answer will be or make her stick to the script in my head.

That still sounds like trust to me.

Trust doesn't necessarily equate to perfection or guarantee or zero chance of something ever happening.

Originally Posted by unaluna

Seriously? I know my t will be there for my appointment. If i could predict what he was going to say, i wouldnt need to talk to him!

Did i misunderstand your point? If so, im sorry.

There's nothing to apologize for-I'm just sharing my perspective too.

You trust your T is conscientious about showing up and being on time for appointments and not being careless perhaps. But there could be a time where a flood occurs and the roads to the Ts office are blocked out. Or an earthquake. or family emergency preventing T from showing up.

Trust does not equal guarantee nothing happens or perfection. And people trusted still make mistakes. Again just how I look at it.

Sorry for posting 3 times in a row. I deleted what i wrote yesterday thinking no one was interested but yet here again overtalking. Just an interesting topic to me. I don't have a strong opinion about the T, just like to talk about this subject from different angles. And hopefully it helps you (or someone) in some way LT.

[LonesomeTonight]

I do appreciate everyone's comments and will reply more later, as well as give a recap from today's session, where we addressed some of the issues from here. Right now, it's a total novel and I'm not even done with it, so will try to trim down some of the less important stuff so everyone doesn't fall asleep reading it! I think session generally went well and we had some good discussion, though a little unsure about how a couple of the topics went. But I felt connected to my T, which is...something.

[stopdog]

There is some research out there, not much of course because it would cause therapists to have to look at themselves, on how therapist attachment style plays into it.

"Key Practitioner Message

Therapist insecure attachment may negatively affect the therapeutic alliance in more symptomatic clients.
It is important to consider the interaction between client and therapist attachment and how these interactions influence the therapeutic alliance.
Therapists should be aware of their own personal attachment style and reflect on how this might manifest during the therapeutic process."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/....1002/cpp.1944

[Echos Myron redux]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Seriously? I know my t will be there for my appointment. If i could predict what he was going to say, i wouldnt need to talk to him!

Did i misunderstand your point? If so, im sorry.

It's possible to be consistent without being predictable. For example, my T is consistently non-judgemental and caring, and also, he has lots of new insights and perspectives I hadn't thought of.

This is an interesting thread indeed (=LT's therapy and everyone's reactions). I personally don't have just one static (polarized) observation/opinion on it but what I would like to point out is for us to see how therapy clients expect the Ts to be non-judgmental and accepting to a fault, often to the level of (what I personally think) the impossible. Either idealize the T we have and share how they do things so amazingly so we can highlight personal achievements, or put them down in every possible way. Do the same about other people's Ts... people who actually have the courage and willingness to really share a lot of their experiences, and a broad palette of it. Expect humble and extremely well-trained and self-aware, self-regulated Ts but, at the same time, we judge and criticize Ts and other people's T choices often harshly. I think the comments on LT's therapy stories (not just on this thread, on PC in general) very much follow this quite ambivalent dynamic, with all sorts of twists and turns, mass/crowd effects, great social moments (for us) and also some intense fights. This might not go over well with some but... isn't it such an intriguing social experiment and great representative example for how communities operate? I am personally enjoying it a lot and am finding it very helpful, in many ways, as well. So thanks LT and everyone! Really great virtual experience of an ever-changing social dynamic.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by octoberful

There's nothing to apologize for-I'm just sharing my perspective too.

You trust your T is conscientious about showing up and being on time for appointments and not being careless perhaps. But there could be a time where a flood occurs and the roads to the Ts office are blocked out. Or an earthquake. or family emergency preventing T from showing up.

Trust does not equal guarantee nothing happens or perfection. And people trusted still make mistakes. Again just how I look at it.

Sorry for posting 3 times in a row. I deleted what i wrote yesterday thinking no one was interested but yet here again overtalking. Just an interesting topic to me. I don't have a strong opinion about the T, just like to talk about this subject from different angles. And hopefully it helps you (or someone) in some way LT.

Not at all - i read your links yesterday. I wasnt sure thats what was going on with LT, but i found it interesting. I used to read tons more theory, like esp in the past ten years with t. Ive kinda slacked off.

[unaluna]

Xyn -

I know! We should be surgeons!

[LonesomeTonight]

T today. Went back and sat down. He was wearing a white shirt with little black polka dots and different-colored buttons (?). He kept rubbing his face around his mouth, and I was like, "OK, this makes me think you're trying to signal I have something on my face." T: "You don't, no glitter today." Me: "OK, because it's still all over the house from the costume. I guess you don't have to deal with that, having a son. Or maybe you do, if so, there's nothing wrong with that!" T: "You're funny."

T: "So how are you doing?" Me: "Well, yesterday was a little rough." I described a weird panic attack I'd had in the morning, which included feeling really hot, not generally a symptom of mine (and my temp was actually low). T asked if I thought it was related to session from day before, and I said maybe it was sort of an emotional hangover.

I said I felt kinda bad because it was H's birthday, and I had to ask him to be there with D (once he got up) until I felt better. I said I did better later in the day, like going out for dinner with him, though I'd been late in ordering him a b-day present. How I didn't even think we exchanged them anymore, then he sent a list of ideas. T laughed. I said I guess he'd gotten me something my last b-day, but it was this blue heart necklace from Amazon that wasn't at all my style, so seemed like he'd bought something random. T: "You should have given it back to him for his birthday." We laughed about that. That all kind of reinforced the comfort and familiarity between us. But I tried to push that out of my head so it wouldn't influence what I wanted to talk about.

I said part of why I'd been upset the morning before is that I was wondering if I needed a different T. That I'd been looking through Psychology Today T listings...which I guessed is sort of like looking at a dating site when you're upset with your partner. T said it was OK to look and that if I wanted to consult with someone, he was fine with that. Like if I wanted to see another T for a couple sessions to discuss what to do. I asked wouldn't I have to stop seeing him in the meantime? Like weren't there rules? T: "No rules. You just need to do what's right for you." He said he's had colleagues send someone to him for a couple sessions for the same reason. And also if I wanted to see someone else for 6 months, then come back, that would also be fine. Me: "But what if you'd filled up all your slots?" T: "I probably wouldn't have...and I wouldn't use that as an excuse to have you not come back. Remember, I'm not going anywhere." Me: "OK."

I said I wanted to discuss some more stuff about the relationship, about what we'd do going forward. I wanted to know if he felt able to help me in a couple areas. The first was attachment. That I knew I had anxious/preoccupied attachment. Is that something he could help me with? Not just with him, but in general. T: "I see how that plays out with you. It seems like you start to get close, and then when you start to feel like the relationship is what you want, then..." Me: "I get terrified." T: "Yes. it seems like a very painful process because neither option is good, not having the closeness or having it." Me: "Yeah. I wonder if that was part of what happened here, why I got more freaked out lately. Maybe because you said in that email 'I'm not going anywhere.' Maybe that scared me? I don't know." T: "That could be." Me: "Because I feel like then I was testing you like with calling you when I'd never called before. I don't know what was wrong with me, why I was pushing so much." T: "I wasn't sure what was going on either, why you were reacting so strongly to some things I said." Me: "Though I was thinking about it, and it's also only been a few weeks since the parenting columnist was saying I should leave H. So I could just be really dysregulated lately..." T agreed.

So I asked if he felt he could help me with attachment. He said yes. I said I thought I'd remembered asking him about it when I first started seeing him, and he said he just thought of the attachment styles as being a childhood thing, that he didn't think applied to adulthood. T: "You must be remember wrong. I use attachment theory all the time in couples counseling." He mentioned a particular author (Susan something?) who developed one of the marriage counseling styles he uses. So he's well-versed in it. He also pointed out the "Attachment in Adulthood" book on his shelf. Me: "OK."

I said related to that, I felt I needed to learn to reassure myself better. Could he help with that? Because ex-T didn't seem to really help with that in 6 years, or ex-MC really. T: "Yes, I can help with that. It would mostly involve some mindfulness techniques, some self-soothing." Me: "OK, good."

I mentioned how he'd said last session that he was trying to avoid being like ex-MC. Me: "But ex-MC actually did some things that really helped me, so...if you're just trying to avoid being like him..." T: "No, I'm not trying to be the opposite of ex-MC. I'm just trying to avoid the things that led down the path of enmeshment, where it stopped being therapeutic." Me: "Oh, OK. Because, I guess one of the main things with him is that he just seemed so accepting of me. And that meant a lot to me." T: "Yes, but it also seemed like he accepted some things that maybe he shouldn't have. And that wasn't helpful to you." Me: "I guess, yeah..."

Me: "I guess another related thing is...I'm trying to think of the best way to explain this. It feels like you think the way your mind works is the right way and how others should think. I don't want to go into a discussion about caring, but an example I thought of was from Tuesday. Where I mentioned caring about you, and you said, "You can't care about me! You don't know me!" And that felt like, your way was the right way, instead of, maybe you just think differently from me." T: "I was just trying to say that I thought of it differently. That you don't know me, so..." Me: "I really don't want to get into that part now. My point is about how you presented it. You could have said it differently." T: "I wasn't judging you."

Me: "But it felt like it. It's just...sometimes...I mean, yeah, I know I think differently than a lot of people, including you. But at times, you seem to act like I'm a weirdo because of that." T: "I'm pretty sure I've never called you a weirdo." Me: "Not in those words, but you've suggested that the way I think or feel things is strange." T: "Well, 'strange' or 'weird' implies that it's bad, and that's not what I mean. You are an outlier in some areas. For example, in the case of thinking so much about other people and what they think. And in that case, I don't think it serves your best interest. I think it causes you distress." Me: "But it's just how I think. I mean, I'd like to change it, but I don't do that by choice."

Me: "I guess...the problem is, my mom also would act like everyone had to be like her. And that wasn't helpful to me. So I guess at times...you remind me of my mom? Ex-T was like that at times, too." T: "I certainly don't expect everyone to think like me." Me: "OK, it just feels that way at times, the way you say things."

We discussed a few things my ex-T had said that had felt critical, like "You're too observant of other people" or "You obsess about things too much" (to which I said to current T, "I mean, I do have OCD, so..."). T: "Do you think she was actually saying them in that tone or you were adding it in?" Me: "Some of it actually seemed to be in that tone. And the fact with the being too observant, she seemed bothered that I read into things like ex-MC taking his glasses off and leaving them off most of the session, like she mentioned that multiple times. While I feel like...ex-MC did a lot of things intentionally, like he'd talk about techniques like hugging from across the room. So I figure the glasses were deliberate. I figure T's in general think more about their body language and appearance. Uh, not to make you self-conscious." T: "Well, it doesn't all mean something. Like my wedding ring" (which he pointed to). He was referencing my mentioning about a month ago that he hadn't worn it much lately, and he said he often took it off then forgot to put it back on again (which wasn't the case when I first started seeing him). Interestingly, I think he's worn it every time since I said that...

I forget how this part came up. But T was talking about something I often do when talking to him. T: "You do this thing, where you'll tell me something, then add a caveat, then add an caveat to the caveat and just keep explaining, when no explanation was really needed. It's a quirk of yours. And it's actually rather endearing." Me: "It's nice to know you find that endearing, as H finds it to be annoying. Maybe it's different when you don't live with me."

I noticed we were out of time and got out my phone. Confirmed the times for next week, and I went over to pay, as we made some small talk about my weekend plans. Paid, and T held out his hand, saying, "Have a good weekend." Me (shaking his hand): "You too." T: "Take care." Me: "You, too."

[DP_2017]

Seems like an alright session, still says some things I was like EEEEK too, but it's not my choice to stay with him.

The main question is, DO YOU BELIEVE he can help with those things? That's what you gotta really think about.

I do agree that living with someone might make their quirks more annoying than someone who sees you a few hours a week. That's why many people break up/divorce after living together so long.

I personally don't see anything wrong with being Weird. My T is weird, I tell him that often. I am weird, he tells me. It's like in a way, being able to embrace your unique stuff and just go with it.

T: "Yes, but it also seemed like he accepted some things that maybe he shouldn't have. And that wasn't helpful to you. <-- that part stood out to me most of things he said. I agree with him here, which I rarely agree with your T. It's also something to really think about.

That sounded really good LT, and that he handled your doubts about him well, including coming back in 6 months.

It seems working this way may be helping to build up your distress tolerance incrementally but significantly.

I also thought the endearing statement was interesting, and nice. Sort of a little affirmation for you after the rejection, which made me wonder if he does that rupture repair pattern-one day withholding and the next giving.

(Liked that he used my favorite concept-enmeshed.)

It's comedic that he evidences his ability to work with attachment because he has a book about it. Did I say comedic? I think I mean tragic.

[feileacan]

Yeah, I guess my understanding about doing attachment work is also something completely different than what this T seems to think.

Although it's actually not very clear what he thinks. Did he actually explain what he means about attachment work (aside from just claiming to know what attachment theory is about)?

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by octoberful

Sort of a little affirmation for you after the rejection, which made me wonder if he does that rupture repair pattern-one day withholding and the next giving.

He absolutely does this. All the time. I find it quite disturbing - it reminds me of my ex-T (the bad one) and of various other very unhealthy relationships I've been in in the past. I think it's an extremely unhelpful way for a T to behave, especially with a client like LT (or like myself, not trying to suggest that she's an 'outlier'. Because she's not.)

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

So I asked if he felt he could help me with attachment. He said yes. I said I thought I'd remembered asking him about it when I first started seeing him, and he said he just thought of the attachment styles as being a childhood thing, that he didn't think applied to adulthood. T: "You must be remember wrong. I use attachment theory all the time in couples counseling." He mentioned a particular author (Susan something?) who developed one of the marriage counseling styles he uses. So he's well-versed in it. He also pointed out the "Attachment in Adulthood" book on his shelf. Me: "OK."

I believe that translating any theory into practice with an individual person in therapy, in any given moment, is not prescriptive in nature, as in "if client says X, attachment-oriented therapist says Y." But this interaction right here seems to be precisely what attending to the therapy relationship and being sensitive to the attachment is all about. You felt comfortable saying "this is what I thought about you and what you said." That means something to feel safe enough to bring that up. He, without scoffing or telling you your memory is terrible or your perception is distorted or otherwise being shaming or communicating you were wrong, just simple honesty as if he was responding to a direct question, just said what it true for him.

My question, which is just my curiosity rather than a demand for you to answer it, is your "OK" the end of this? Perhaps I'm getting it wrong, but you seem to have built some kind of box around him about who he is and what your therapy is supposed to be about, and that box is "he is doing this wrong." And that box keeps you from exploring issues bigger than what he's doing wrong, and maybe that also means you miss these moments where there's this kind of magic, a right-now connection where you understand each other.

I didn't think I was doing or have done "attachment" work-- I'm not a big fan of any kind of therapeutic specialization or theoretical perspective because I think any good therapist needs to look at the complexity of the person in front of them and respond based on what's needed right then-- but one of the things I've learned on this board is that attachment issues were and are indeed part of what I need and what my T has done.

And when I realized I got something wrong with T, I thought he was A or B in his emotional response or words, those were kind of cracking open moments. Sometimes I could feel my little neurological networks, the ones with the grooves where I interpret something as something else, fritzing a little and new understandings beginning to take root. Where I could feel that this was not the same old same old. And the possibility of moving forward in my life in new ways just kind of blossomed out.

[DP_2017]

Hi, now that I'm more awake, I re-read it. I wanted to make a point that, fearful avoidant (me) is basically a combo of dismissive and anxious attachments... so when you talked about the too close.... being scared thing, i GET THAT. only difference is, you keep chasing them and needing the reassurance, where as I distance myself and shut down. It's interesting how the different styles react to things. I also, personally would have asked exactly HOW he can help you with it.... after all this time of having it, he hasn't seemed to really help yet. Not sure quickly reading a book will be a good answer.

I also like that he at least is ok with you shopping around and coming back, it's nice to know you have that if you decide to ever go that route.

[InkyBooky]

LT-

I just want to say kudos to you. I really respect your choice (and courage) to honestly and calmly confront your T regarding some of your concerns . I hope the answers/reactions he provided gave you the insight you were seeking.

P.S.- Your memory and ability to so eloquently describe your sessions is remarkable. I appreciate that you take the time and effort to write them in such a readable and accessible way. I have tried to do this myself, but it just comes out like a jumbled mess....that no one would ever want to read!

Originally Posted by DP_2017

Hi, now that I'm more awake, I re-read it. I wanted to make a point that, fearful avoidant (me) is basically a combo of dismissive and anxious attachments... so when you talked about the too close.... being scared thing, i GET THAT. only difference is, you keep chasing them and needing the reassurance, where as I distance myself and shut down. It's interesting how the different styles react to things. I also, personally would have asked exactly HOW he can help you with it.... after all this time of having it, he hasn't seemed to really help yet. Not sure quickly reading a book will be a good answer.

I also like that he at least is ok with you shopping around and coming back, it's nice to know you have that if you decide to ever go that route.

I got the impression he was overcompensating with his approach in trying to 'not be like MC' rather than demonstrating his attachment style. But also wondered if he has a dismissive style based on the stone reaction.

Way back there I was saying how I think some aspects of the approach may interact with anxios attachment but overall, I don't have as strong of an opinion on this T as other's seem to have here. Not sure why....

But LT your posts sure do spark interesting discussions! If I was a T, I think I would be interested in the thread.