Bringing out preverbal memories

More importantly, it doesn't answer the question.




Dnester, I understand pretty well how someone could have these thoughts, and I have the utmost sympathy for you and your struggle. I think what's most important here is that, as you say, you have not acted on these thoughts. Not all CSA involves physical contact. Inappropriate exposure to sexual situations--such as you've described happening--is also considered abuse. What I find offensive in IDIMY's post, besides its utter lack of evidentiary support, is that it communicates to you that your struggle has the likely conclusion of your becoming a perpetrator. I hope you don't take that to heart.


But I do think it's important that you find an experienced T with whom you can feel safe to explore these thoughts and your quite obvious guilt for having them. That guilt certainly seems like an indication to me that you are punishing yourself, and whether or not you can ever know for sure where the thoughts come from, you can still confront your undeserved guilt.

I think she was trying to tell me I was likely abused without saying i was abused.

I am not going to speculate as to whether you were abused and I am not going to speculate as to a diagnosis for you either. I will say that intrusive, unwelcome sexual thoughts that gross a person out can be part of an anxiety disorder (such as OCD) and not necessarily related to abuse. If you want an example of that in literature, JK Rowling's A Casual Vacancy has a character who suffers terribly from this type of problem. (TW for very upsetting content, abuse and violence in that book).

The pertinent point here is that the book character feels so guilty about having these terrible intrusive thoughts, as though he's a perpetrator, when he has in fact never perpetrated a crime at all. Having upsetting or intrusive thoughts of being sexually inappropriate doesn't make one a "pre-perpetrator." A possible history of sexual abuse is a separate issue, but one that deserves attention in its own right.

All of it deserves to be explored patiently and nonjudgmentally with a competent therapist who doesn't leap to conclusions. Of course you want to know what happened to you. That makes so much sense. A competent therapist will help you figure out what can be known and make peace with what cannot. If you speculate together, you will both be clear that you are speculating. A good and ethical therapist will never rush to fill in the gaps with discredited treatment modalities to "recover memories."

I think the research literature/statistics has been misrepresented, but commonly repeated.

1. In the population of people who have been sexually abused as children, the vast majority of victims do not go on to become offenders.

2. In the population of perpetrators, some to many have been victims of sexual abuse. Being victimized and then perpetrating on others is more common in juvenile offenders than in adult offenders.

1 and 2 are very different things. It depends what group of people (victims or perpetrators you start with). But you have to know both statistics to really understand the relationship between being abused and then perpetrating on others.

This information is an easy Google for anyone who wants to look into it. Here is one website with specific statistics: Statistics on Perpetrators of CSA.

One thing to remember is that the statistics might be not so accurate because we don't have any way to know the complete population of abusers. Those who are caught by the child welfare or criminal justice system may not be reflective of the entire population. We just don't know a lot, which is why I would be thoughtful about any statistics and blanket statements from others when thinking about what kind of therapy might be appropriate for you.

I'm a CSA survivor and I have the unfortunate ability to know that for sure because of physical damage to my body that is irrefutable. I have always had some memories and entered therapy when the circumstances of my life were difficult because of jacked up PTSD symptoms. I am glad that my therapist (and two subsequent ones) never went "looking" for memories but they appeared at various times and I have continued to process them in therapy for many years.

For me, being able to articulate what I went through and having the memories become more flushed out over time was just very, very crucial to my healing. I can very much understand wanting to have a memory that belongs to you and wanting to know what happened. Our memories do belong to us and it has been true for me that having them return in a meaningful form to me felt like I"d gotten back a part of myself.

I am a worried about a therapist that wants to go looking for memories. I do not see a therapist's statement that certain behaviors/feelings/beliefs are consistent with CSA as troubling. I think for a therapist to be silent in the face of what they think signals CSA (and for the sake of argument am just assuming they are correct about it) is not helpful at all to a client.

In law, questions themselves are not leading or "planting a seed." Planting a seed may also just refer to normalizing something that a person may have difficulty coming to understand themselves without any help. Suggesting a possibility does not mean forcing the person to accept it or pushing one answer over another. A position like "let's explore this further if you want to" which may or may not be how your T is approaching it, seems sensible to me.
Burying one's head in the sand and refusing to consider it does not.

Asking a question "have you been abused" or stating it as a possibility allows the person on the other side to say what is true for them.

A way to move forward, assuming you don't want to end therapy or switch therapists, might be to opening discuss your discomfort with your T. Ask her the questions you asked here, see what she says. Ask her about the basis for her belief, and whether other possibilities exist. Have her explain why she thinks moving forward in this technique will help you. Ask her what will happen if memories emerge, and if they don't. Ask how you will benefit from her approach, and whether other ways of moving forward might be more effective. It seems to me that you are at a crossroads here, and it makes sense you want to stop and more fully consider what to do. I wish you the best with it.

[QUOTE=Anne2.0;6202194]I think the research literature/statistics has been misrepresented, but commonly repeated.

1. In the population of people who have been sexually abused as children, the vast majority of victims do not go on to become offenders.

2. In the population of perpetrators, some to many have been victims of sexual abuse. Being victimized and then perpetrating on others is more common in juvenile offenders than in adult offenders.

1 and 2 are very different things. It depends what group of people (victims or perpetrators you start with). But you have to know both statistics to really understand the relationship between being abused and then perpetrating on others.

This information is an easy Google for anyone who wants to look into it. Here is one website with specific statistics: Statistics on Perpetrators of CSA.

One thing to remember is that the statistics might be not so accurate because we don't have any way to know the complete population of abusers. Those who are caught by the child welfare or criminal justice system may not be reflective of the entire population. We just don't know a lot, which is why I would be thoughtful about any statistics and blanket statements from others when thinking about what kind of therapy might be appropriate for you.

I'm a CSA survivor and I have the unfortunate ability to know that for sure because of physical damage to my body that is irrefutable. I have always had some memories and entered therapy when the circumstances of my life were difficult because of jacked up PTSD symptoms. I am glad that my therapist (and two subsequent ones) never went "looking" for memories but they appeared at various times and I have continued to process them in therapy for many years.

For me, being able to articulate what I went through and having the memories become more flushed out over time was just very, very crucial to my healing. I can very much understand wanting to have a memory that belongs to you and wanting to know what happened. Our memories do belong to us and it has been true for me that having them return in a meaningful form to me felt like I"d gotten back a part of myself.

I am a worried about a therapist that wants to go looking for memories. I do not see a therapist's statement that certain behaviors/feelings/beliefs are consistent with CSA as troubling. I think for a therapist to be silent in the face of what they think signals CSA (and for the sake of argument am just assuming they are correct about it) is not helpful at all to a client.

In law, questions themselves are not leading or "planting a seed." Planting a seed may also just refer to normalizing something that a person may have difficulty coming to understand themselves without any help. Suggesting a possibility does not mean forcing the person to accept it or pushing one answer over another. A position like "let's explore this further if you want to" which may or may not be how your T is approaching it, seems sensible to me.
Burying one's head in the sand and refusing to consider it does not.

Asking a question "have you been abused" or stating it as a possibility allows the person on the other side to say what is true for them.

A way to move forward, assuming you don't want to end therapy or switch therapists, might be to opening discuss your discomfort with your T. Ask her the questions you asked here, see what she says. Ask her about the basis for her belief, and whether other possibilities exist. Have her explain why she thinks moving forward in this technique will help you. Ask her what will happen if memories emerge, and if they don't. Ask how you will benefit from her approach, and whether other ways of moving forward might be more effective. It seems to me that you are at a crossroads here, and it makes sense you want to stop and more fully consider what to do. I wish you

I have already asked her all that. She gives me no solid answers because she was not there when my issues started and because I dont remember I get no answers. Im questioning the point of therapy.

I think many people have horrible thoughts about doing things they would never act on because thoughts are just thoughts (as the Buddhists say) and we don't have to attach any meaning to them. Sometimes thoughts are just thoughts and they don't have to "come from somewhere." The thoughts can take root and become overwhelming in their frequency or severity, in which case (not sure if this is true for you) you can work in therapy on not placing undue attention on them and towards letting them go. Mindfulness practice and meditation may be helpful to you whether or not the thoughts are obsessive.

An important part of my therapy has been to not be so judgmental of myself about what I think or my fantasies or my daydreams or whatever. What we choose to do is what defines us, not the fleeting things we think about. This is also part of mindfulness or meditation.

It sounds like you are frustrated with therapy, and it's okay for you to quit or switch therapists or take a break if you need to. You can always go back or look for a new therapist in the future. But I don't think that the search for answers is the only way to go, and I do think that mindfulness/meditation with or without therapy may really help you.

The thoughts have to come from somewhere. Whether it be genetics or whatever.

I agree that this idea seems intuitively true. But what is interesting to me is that much of the findings of brain research conducted for a variety of reasons would indicate this is not so. Just as we tend to believe that our memories are irrefutable, yet science would indicate the opposite.


One of the most impactful findings in memory research has been that memories don't exist in a static form: memories are altered by each occurrence of remembering. I've heard it best described as similar to how a computer can "defragment a disk" by shuffling and reorganizing the bits and pieces of data. Each occurrence of remembering enacts this reshuffling process. Which "version" of a given memory is the "truth"? We don't know. The prevailing thought seems to be that all versions are a reflection of truth, yet each is different.

There is no evidence that I've seen that supports the notion of thoughts as genetically determined. That seems to be a throwback to the idea of the "bad seed." Nature v nurture is far from settled science, but the balance seems to be tipped toward nurture. There is support for the idea of personality characteristics having a genetic (or pre-birth biochemically based) preference, but that is not the same thing as specific patterns of thought. Thoughts are fundamentally perceptions, and as such, rely on multiple inputs.


And example would be near death experiences. There are lots of popular accounts ascribing spiritual significance to these perceptions which, much like alien abduction narratives, are stunningly similar in their descriptions. Yet brain research sees in the similarities, not proof of spiritual existence (or aliens), but rather the predictable consequences of biochemical processes. That doesn't mean that the divine and alien life don't exist; just that these experiences likely aren't the evidence.

It might be helpful to explore with a therapist not so much where your disturbing thoughts come from, but rather what fuels your intense feeling of needing to know.

I remember going around and around with my former T about the need to "remember it all." I consciously retained only a few memory fragments. And there was much evidence suggestive of abuse in my general family situation. But I didn't remember much of anything from my early childhood. And I felt intensely that if I couldn't remember those years, how could I know who I was? I think I used the example of a house built without a foundation to describe my feeling. Without a foundation, the rest of the house was somehow fake. My T, who was never in favor of memory "recovery," said that quantity doesn't increase validity. Quantity doesn't add to emotional relevance. And a lack of quantity doesn't in any way lessen the emotional validity of what is remembered. My challenge was in changing the intuitive sense that I wasn't whole without such memory intact.

Well. Yeah. I mean thoughts come from our brains. They don't necessarily come from outside events. Why do some people find BDSM to be incredibly sexually exciting while others find it repulsive? Who knows? But liking BDSM doesn't generally come from a history of having been bound, whipped or otherwise hurt in childhood. Some people just seem to be wired that way.

I think that if you deeply suspect that you were sexually abused, that conviction/suspicion alone is worrying and merits time and attention with a good therapist.

I agree and it’s totally false. Yes a small percentage become abusers themselves but so do a percentage of people who weren’t abused. I find this particularly offensive and dangerous coming from a therapist- you are a therapist, aren’t you ididitmyway?
This is so damaging to abuse victims and it feeds the message that they have already that they are bad!

The being wired that way is exactly what i am afraid of. If i was born this way, have ocd that causes it or some other wiring. I am a bad seed. If something that happened to cause me to be this way would be better but even then it is short lived because even other abuse victims dont think like me.

Ok. I guess "bad seed" is one possible angle. It seems like one that is unhelpful and lacking in compassion though.

Unhelpful because the greatest thing about therapy is that you actually get to rewire your brain. Almost literally. You learn new ways of thinking, processing and coping and then create alternative neural pathways so that you actually can get out of negative thought patterns.

Lacking in compassion because people who have mental illnesses are not "bad seeds." They are people in difficulty who need help. Mental illness can make you feel hopeless, that doesn't mean it is.

What about all my triggers. They have to come from somewhere right?

I mean I have alot of triggers. My dad rubbing my leg in the car. Sexual abuse stories, sexual abuse prevention stories, words with a sexual connotation in them like panties. All that stuff makes me very anxious and has since I was a child.

I disagree. I would never follow all instructions from a therapist without thinking or checking on things myself. To me, that is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think so - some things are personality. I don't like having my hands held but I don't think anyone ever did anything to my hands. I do have some csa as a small child in my background and none of the things that upset you are things that upset me - so I don't think there is a universal sign. I would be very wary of false memory planting by even a well meaning (assuming such a thing exists) therapist.

I don't think it makes you a "bad seed" at all, but I can understand that feeling. You're getting help for it and not acting on the thoughts, right? We can't control our thoughts, just our actions.

As for it having to come from somewhere, I don't know. I mean, some people have seemingly random phobias. And even if it did, it didn't necessarily stem from abuse. For example, it could be from something you read at a young age or overheard or accidentally saw on TV but don't consciously remember.
I say this as someone whose ex-T suspected something similar in my past, but I have no memories of it either. (She didn't push much for it though.)

Yes I am getting help but I have been close to harming many times. If that comes from nowhere that certaintly does make me a bad seed.

This is an interesting thread.

JMHO ... “a bad seed” - I don’t personally know anyone who is a “bad seed”

But I guess they do exist. . And I stay far away from them.

I’m currently moving forward in my life....... and working on preverbal memories.

I do have a safe space where I can do that.

I would think/hope that this is mostly accurate

Dnester, I can't help but notice that you don't really engage with any of the views expressed on your thread. You cycle back or switch to the same persistent beliefs/conclusions about yourself. It's as though you cannot allow for any possibilities challenging your beliefs, except for declarative answers to questions that likely have no definitive answers. Do you see how this cycle traps you in your current beliefs?

I do feel, subjectively, an obsessive quality to your thoughts. There are therapists using EMDR to disrupt obsessive thoughts--lessen their stranglehold--and I wonder if this is the approach your therapist is exploring, rather than using EMDR to elicit memories that would "prove" abuse (which would be irresponsible). Are you sure that you have not misinterpreted her suggestion of EMDR in order to fit your need to "find answers"?

Are you doing it with EMDR?

No everything I tell her she says that could be Ocd or from sexual abuse. She gives me no answers. She is really stuck with doing EMDR thats her speciality . I have only done it twice so far and dont know if its working. The reality of it all is I will never know exactly what caused me to be like this and I will never forgive myself.

No I’m not..I have been wondering about EMDR. But I don’t live in the USA...