In Session Today: Part V

First, we talked about mindful sitting. I've started doing that, according to the description in some book I've been reading. He asked me what exactly I was doing and commented on how it's normal to have negative thoughts coming up, to just accept them and let them go.

Then I mentioned not quite knowing what I wanted to talk about. Sometimes I have trouble telling what's important. He said he'd feel it's important to talk about how I sometimes act in the second half of sessions. Crying a lot and just the general behavior and way I talk. He said he often feels helpless in those situations, or angry since he thinks 'why do I feel helpless'. That he had the feeling I'm trying to just 'do my thing'. I didn't understand, so he explained that it seems like I try to experience and show everything I'm feeling, as though there was no other way. He said he'd think that's something important to talk about.

I told him I think it's important too, but I don't really understand it myself, so it's kind of hard to talk about. Sometimes I don't feel anything in those situations or my emotions are chaotic. I told him I'd have to think about it for myself.

He said otherwise there's always relationships that we could talk about, those are important. I told him about a guy that visited for a while some time back. That guy now seems to have a crush on me, which makes me uncomfortable. We discussed for how long I've known the guy, what we know about each other and all that. T asked whether my partner seems to not mind when he hears about that guy hitting on me. I told him that we have an open relationship, he didn't know what that was and I had to explain.

At some point there was some silence and I got sad, so I told him. He asked what happened. I said I was thinking about whether I like men or women, then I got sad and told him. He wanted to know whether I can feel the sadness, which was kind of hard because it switches so much, but at some points I managed to feel it. i said right now it works, sometimes it hurts too much to feel it. He asked what hurts so much in those situations and I said it's the fact that I can't talk properly. He said 'but do we always need to talk about everything?' and I told him I feel lonely otherwise. I started crying. He told me it's okay to feel sad and to feel lonely. To accept those feelings and feel them. Then he got quiet and let me cry.

After a while he asked whether he's right that I seem rather relaxed currently. I nodded and he said if I wanted to, I could look at him too. I looked at him twice and felt happy each time. He smiled at me too. He went on for a bit about eye contact and how it's important in relationships.

Then he wrapped up, he gave me a new prescription, shortly asked about whether I'm having any side effects from the meds, which I don't, and then we confirmed we'd see on Friday and said good bye.

I know you know it's okay to like both men and women, but I wanted to say how lovely I think this interaction between you and your T is. It sounds like you are making really positive changes in your end of the T relationship and seems like you are really benefitting by making these changes. It's good to read about therapy working in this way.

On the "open relationship" issue, I have learned by interviewing people about all kinds of personal and sensitive issues that labels are used differently by different people. I would have asked what that means in your T's shoes, not because I am unfamiliar with the idea of a non monogamous relationship, but because people mean different things by it. One person said he had an open relationship but his wife didn't know about it, which was his way of saying he had affairs. In some open relationships there are rules about with whom or when a secondary relationship can take place, the rules can be different, etc. I think your T was just trying to get a sense of the lay of the land of your relationship with your SO. Kudos to you for being so open about your sexuality with your T. It can be a really hard thing to do.

I told my T recently I was considering beginning to date again after my last round 25 years ago, when people had to call each other on landline phones to schedule dates. He said something that was gendered, and I said I wasn't necessarily looking for a man. He replied, "good, then the dating pool has just doubled," and that just cracked me up. It wasn't all that long ago that the mental health system considered anyone who wasn't heterosexual and gender conforming as pathological (and locked up young people in institutions for years); it's good to see that T's can be open minded and accepting.

Just a comment on the open relationship thing... I would second that it is important to discuss and clarify what an "open relationship" (or polyamory, or whatever we call it) entails in every single case, preferentially as early in the relationship as possible. It is indeed something that means many different scenarios and conditions for many people. I have lived in what can be described as open relationships (or unconventional relationship structures) in my whole life and it works for me and the people I usually form a good match with very well. Not only because I am bisexual but it is just what is compatible with my personality and needs - I tried more conventional monogamy a few times when I was young but it failed each time when the partner was really had on those expectations. But the specific conditions of my relationships are individualized, it is not the same with every partner and my needs are not exactly the same with everyone either. There is a basic idea but then I like to develop it with every partner based on the combination of us, not just myself. It has never really been a problem for me except those few cases when I was very young and hooked up with people who had too different values and I find that those who prefer more traditional relationships don't tend to be attracted to me very often either - I am very open about these parts of myself with everyone so it is usually obvious. I did find a few times that people used the concept of "open relationship" or "polyamory" to cheat on their primary partners in secret though - I engaged that way with such people a couple times and decided around my late 30's that I will never do anything secretive again and won't cover for anyone. Much easier and generally more fair that way. When I do online dating, for example, I put my conditions in my profile very clearly - I still sometimes get interests from people who think differently and want to change me, but I decline those very quickly.

I sat down and I couldn't really look at him or speak. I told him this is harder than it was in my head. He said would it help if I made direct statements like "I am angry because..." or "What I wanted from you is...". I looked at him. He said "It might not be helpful, I was offering it...".

I said "What is so scary about that song?" He didn't answer. I said "That's not a rhetorical question". He thought for a minute and said he thought the power projected onto the therapist was scary; it's scary to him to have that much power, and that he found the therapist suddenly declaring she would be away for two weeks at the end of the session with no regard to the impact on the client pretty scary.

We talked about what had happened between us. I said how the apology had hurt more because it only came when I finally communicated with him from an adult place. That he had been pissy with me when I was in a more vulnerable child place had reinforced that child part's belief that she is unacceptable. He said that made sense.

He said that he was shaken by how profoundly hurt I was by what he had said. He said he needs to take greater care when he is responding to me, and if he is going to send more than an acknowledgement as a response, he needs to make sure he is in a "therapy headspace". Though I cognitively know that's exactly what he should be doing, part of me didn't like it at all; I felt angry and said in practical terms that meant emailing me less which feels like punishment. He said it didn't mean that. I looked around the room fantasising about pulling all the books of his shelf and upending his table. I think it's a really profound example of how I need him to be a therapist to me, not a friend, yet it hurts that he isn't. I want him to take care when he emails me, yet it hurts that he does. It really speaks to a whole range of conflicting needs and desires going on inside of me.

I said to him "I bet it doesn't feel like a privilege to work with me now" in reference to him saying that it was in the first email he sent me on Monday. He said "I don't feel like I'm doing a very good job of it at the moment". I looked at him. I nearly said "I don't know what you're supposed to do" but before I could he said "That's not asking for reassurance, it's just a true statement of how I'm feeling right now.".

We sat in silence for a bit and he said how when we had the email exchange, he thought "what is this?" and "why now?". He said it had quickly gone from him expressing pleasure and enjoyment in working with me, to profoundly hurting me. He said he felt like it wasn't a coincidence that this happened on the anniversary, and we talked about the depth of the work recently, and my fear of my own potency. He said it might be useful to focus on the bigger picture of what this is and why we have had similar ruptures like this through the years (he added this was him being a bit of a better therapist).
The potency discussion was really interesting actually, talking about me fearing him being scared of me, and how we both experience fear and enjoyment around the way we impact on each other sometimes.

I said I didn't fully buy his explanation of what he found scary in the song, and I think some of it is to do with the facebook stuff. He said on some level it might be, and that does fit with his process.
I said my sense is that he has never experienced idealising transference in the way I do, but sometimes I feel like he experiences it with me, and he is in it with me. Like we are going through it together, so it is jarring when I feel like he doesn't understand. He said he sometimes feels very connected to my experience in session, and thinks he does know a little of the pain I go through, but it's not all the time. He added that I was right, he hasn't experienced the kind of transference I go through. He paused and said "I had some pretty intense feelings towards my first therapist, but not on the level you experience".

I said I didn't want to forget about the intense rage I felt earlier, and I told him about fantasising about wrecking his room. He said "and you could have" I said "I never would." and he said "I'm quite glad - I wouldn't like that. But you could've". I said and he nodded knowingly and said rage is an emotion which is supposed to always go outwards. When it goes inwards that tells of a great deal of pain.

We talked again about feeling unacceptable. He said he is not aware of finding any part of me unacceptable. He said that it is possible that I could remind him of parts of himself he has not yet accepted about himself, and that's happened a couple of times in the past and he has to work through that, but...and he said clearly "I am not aware, Echos, of finding any part of you unacceptable at all". He said "We have come too far for me to give you a simple answer, I feel like I owe you the truth [about not knowing what could be in his unconscious]." I was quiet. He asked me if I believed him. I thought for a minute and said "yes".

As we reached the end I said "I love you" and he looked at me, smiled, sighed and said "I know.". [then he got frozen in carbonite - kidding].

He said "I'm not sure if you'll want it....but I have a Christmas card for you" and he handed it to me. I was really happy and touched. He has never given me a card before. He said it wasn't related to the rupture, that he had decided to give me a Christmas card in summer. I said "You're not sure if I'll want it?!" he said "you said you might not be here!"

We stood up and hugged for a long time. He said "you are really hot!" (as in temperature of course!) I said I am a warm person, I always seem to radiate heat. We had a jokey conversation as I walked to the door about thermostat wars between spouses. He seemed to be able to relate to that.

We said goodbye and see you next year and I left.

His card says
"Echos,
Wishing you a happy and peaceful Christmas. I look forward to continuing our work together in 2019.
Warm wishes, T."

Echos I enjoyed reading your write-up. It sounds like an ideal way of how a reconciliation of sorts should happen. I loved that he gave you a Christmas card at the end (something I always longed for former T to give to me but she never did). Anyway, I got a lot out of reading your write-up. Thanks for sharing, Kit.

this is the book t got me!
can't wait to start reading it

https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Outsid...a-524509722238

I really liked that book (I have the e-version) and sometimes recommend it to my clinically oriented students, hope you will enjoy it junkDNA!

(Echoes, I'm also glad to hear that things feel less terrible now)

We talked about my negative transference which has been going on for quite a while now. He said we’re enacting something from my childhood and he has been cast as the “bad parent.” He doesn’t want me to feel hurt or abandoned between sessions, so essentially recommended stopping therapy, saying that not everyone is ready for “depth therapy” and that I could always do it later. The other option he recommended was coming 2x/week. I’d be open to that, but I work 4 workdays/week and see him on my day off. My work days are super inflexible and I don’t see how I could find the time for a 2nd day. So, I may be stopping therapy or perhaps finding another therapist. I like my T, but I do feel some relief that the negative transference might stop. It’s been exhausting. I just sent him an email asking if he’d consider a 6:00 a.m. appointment for my second appointment of the week. It’s super early, but I think I could do it. I wouldn’t want to have to poke him to keep him awake while I was talking, though. I completely understand if that time won’t work for him, but it’s a Hail Mary, I guess. If I end up looking for a new therapist at least I’ll know what I’m getting myself into the second time around.

Echos-reading from afar, it sounded like he rubbed salt in your wound when he said the video was scary. Maybe there was a connection where the Facebook part of the video led to a reopening of the wound from your big rupture where he referred to you as an "internet sleuth". It seemed really out of line for him to say the video was "scary", regardless if it was an oversight about the connection with the previous rupture or only due to common carelessness. I couldn't help but notice that he self discloses unusually excessively. I wonder if you've thought about that?

The video seemed funny except when she stopped playing the piano--then it had a brief sense of being out of control. That is scary to me. I've been on the end of idealization many times; one time, So I can see something like that seemingly harmless video as scary or even triggering me. Then again, I'm not a therapist and never could be due to this issue that resulted in what seems like lifelong PTSD now. Anyway, when someone overidealizes, and I don't mean the garden variety, they lose their whole sense of self and are merged with the person they are idealizing. It's very similar to psychosis, but instead of someone disconnecting from reality in the world around them, they disconnect from the reality of who they are. That can be very scary when you are on the other end. Maybe that has happened to your T? I hope you don't mind me sharing this.

I can relate to not feeling accepted by T. I've dealt with some painful ruptures with my T when he seemed rejecting of my intense feelings. I don't think I ever recovered from it, and instead, introjected it like I did my mother's contempt for me for merely existing.

That's great that he gave you a christmas card, and I'm glad that you feel better now.

What has given you that impression? I don't think that's true of Echos' T at all.

It's not really an impression as he talks about his feelings a lot. Saying the video was scary is an example of his self disclosure.

Anyway, Echos, I was just curious about your thoughts about it, if you care to share.

Oh, sorry, I wasn't aware that your opinion was actually an objective fact. That was silly of me.

Generally the term 'self-disclosure' is not used to refer to a therapist sharing their feelings and reactions in the moment, and in response to what the client brings, although yes that is certainly something that Echos' T does. And yes she has thought about it. She very much likes and requires him to work in that way. It's pretty unusual, though, for him to do it in the manner of that email. I also don't believe he does it to an 'unusually excessive' degree, and I don't understand what you are basing that on. You proclaim it as if you're some sort of expert.

It's usually used to refer to a therapist sharing facts about their life outside of the therapy. That is not something that Echos' T does much of at all - though he will do it if he sees good reason to.

I have no stake in the definition, but that's not true at all. A therapist talking about his feelings is self-disclosure. What you are referring to here is more the colloquial meaning rather than the clinical application of the concept.

As you've answered for Echos, and since I'm rather uncomfortable with your reaction/response to my question, I will not come back to the thread.

I am in no way commenting on Echos's therapist's self disclosure, but I am also under the impression that self disclosure includes disclosures relating to the therapist's feelings.

Thanks to all who have commented. As one of the commenters has decided not to return to the thread I won't respond directly to the points raised except to say thank you for the different perspectives. I know you are all sharing your feelings about what I have posted with consideration for me, and sincerity.

I ordered this to read along with you

Echos, your T seems emotionally brave and so do you. The focus on the relational aspect has a distinct flavor, that my T isn't trained for and wouldn't readily embrace.

First, I asked T when he'd be back after Christmas. Then I said I had two different topics to discuss.

I wanted to talk about my mom. She made some mean comments about therapists last Christmas and I was worried it'd happen again. T asked how long I'd be there, whether my partner would join us. He said that if feelings come up based on what my mom says, to just accept and feel them. They'd be over in a few minutes and it wouldn't matter how often she'd say something, they'd just come and go. He also said I can of course tell her I have a different opinion. But to not fight and tell her she's wrong, she can have her own opinion as well and that's okay.

Then I said I'd been thinking some more about the way I sometimes behave in therapy. First I thought about one of my friends with whom I had acted quite similarly. After that I thought about one of my teachers. i talked with him a lot during high school, which my T knows. With that teacher I never really acted out, I cried sometimes but not in a way where I couldn't calm down anymore. I had some flashbacks when I thought about that, and I'd like to talk about one part, even though I'm not sure how connected it is to the actual thing I was thinking about.
T said that was okay.

I then told him a lot about the conversations I used to have with that teacher as well as the general situation around that time. T asked a bit about the teacher as well as whether I had issues with people in school. We talked about that for a while, we also talked about a girl I had a crush on in high school which didn't go over to well. We used to hold hands before I told her about my feelings, and T asked whether that's not a normal thing to do for 13 year olds. I told him that I didn't know, but it wasn't normal for me. T said he wasn't sure whether it's normal either, he couldn't tell. Then we also discussed the reaction of adults involved. He asked me what should have happened such that I would have felt better about everything. I answered that all I ever wanted to have an open discussion with that girl, to just tell her what's okay for me and what isn't. But instead I just got told what to not do and didn't have any way to answer, nobody listened to me. T mentioned how all the adults there seemed to not have understood what was important. That they either overreacted or under-reacted, but nobody would just let us talk to each other.

After that, he asked what the stuff we had talked about meant to me, what effect it had on me. I said I'm now scared to talk to women. I'm scared to share feelings with people and of people in general. He agreed with all of those points and asked whether I could also feel that or whether that's just my rational side. I said I can feel about 80% of it. He then went on for a while about how this is just a memory, a story. That it's not now and that's important to remember. That it's part of me and that it's okay.
He also said how some of the things that happened would probably not be allowed anymore today, like talking to a teacher off campus once a week. And he mentioned that we couldn't know what all the other people in this memory thought and felt at the time, but that it doesn't really matter either.

I said that I'd like to look at him. He replied that I could if I wanted to and I did. At first he just looked back, but then I smiled at him and he started to almost laugh. He seemed to really enjoy it. He said I seem to have more courage than a few weeks ago.

Then he mentioned we'd have to stop soon. He got a card saying when my next appointment would be. I was incredibly happy about it, even though it's just a generic thing. Then he wished me a good time and "good games" (referencing the fact that my main hobby is gaming). I laughed about that which made him laugh. He then again said that for how long he'd be out, I told him that he's already telling me this for the third time now. He said "Yes, I think I've already said everything...". Then he got up and we shook hands, he said "until next year" and I left.

A snippet....

Me: (trying to jumble and mumble my way through how I feel)

T: (says something about a logjam)

Me: Yes! A logjam, that's exactly the right word. I come in here and have all of the words and can't get to the right one, than you pull out the exactly right word. This all feels like a logjam.

(pause)

Me: Logjams are dangerous. (meaning literal logjams--I grew up in logging country)

T (who knows that): Yes. They are.

T yesterday. As I walked by him, he said, "Hi there!" Me: "Hi." Went back and sat down (he was actually wearing his ring this time). T: "So I saw you heard back from ex-MC." Me: "Yes. When I wrote to you to let you know, I kept almost including these other comments about the email, but then I realized that it would suggest that I wanted you to reply about them. So I left those out." T smiled. Me: "See, I'm getting it, right?" T: "Yes you are!" Me: "And I'm applying it to communication with other people, too, I think." T: "Good! So how are you feeling about the email?"

Me: "I don't know. I expected to have more of a reaction to it than I did. I mean, I teared up for a few seconds, and I thought maybe it was partly because I had to keep myself together, because H was working from home and I was meeting my dad for Christmas shopping in an hour. But it's not like I got emotional later, either. And in the past, I'd have had more of a reaction." T: "What do you think is behind it?" Me: "I don't know. I mean, his response was in the middle. Like between what I wanted, which would be a true apology, like 'I'm sorry I hurt you.' And it wasn't the other extreme, which would have been cutting me off, telling me no more contact. So it's not like I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy or that I feel really hurt." T: "So, it's like he gave you vanilla, you asked for ice cream and he gave you vanilla." Me: "Well, except I like vanilla ice cream." T: "OK, bad comparison. Then he gave you Neapolitan." (the kind where it's 1/3 vanilla, 1/3 chocolate, and 1/3 strawberry) Me: "Yeah, OK."

I glanced at the email from ex-MC that I'd printed out. "Hey, with the Neopolitan thing, that kinda fits, because part talked about me, part you, and part H, so like the three different flavors." T: "I'm not sure I want to know which flavor I'd be!" Me: "Probably not! And like, is it good strawberry with pieces of actual strawberries, or the fake strawberry?"

We got back to the email. I said how in mentioning H twice in the end, it was like he was trying to shift focus off of me. T: "Like he was being careful to assert boundaries." Me: "Yeah. Like it wasn't 'I enjoyed and valued working with you.' It was, 'I enjoyed and valued working with you and H.' Which feels different."

Me: "And he put a lot of emphasis on my seeing you, like he said the thing about it being a sign of strength I stuck with you." T: "He was probably trying to be positive and focus on where you are now." Me: "Yeah, but I wonder what he'd have said if I'd decided to switch T's?" T: "He probably would have said that he hoped the new T would work out for you." Me: "True. Or what if I'd decided to stop therapy and try, say, meditation? He would have said that was good, too?" T: "Probably." Me: "What about if I said I was switching to Scientology?" T: "That I don't think he'd be positive about!"

I said I wondered if this email could possibly be what I needed to get to the acceptance stage. Like a last-ditch effort to see if he'd truly apologize. T: "Could be." Me: "And when I got his response...I mean, it was nice enough, I guess. But I also didn't really get the 'fix' from it like we'd talked about last time." T: "You didn't? That's interesting." Me: "Yeah...and I feel like my not getting that would make me more reluctant to email him again, at least not anytime soon." T: "Until maybe you're feeling vulnerable again." Me: "I don't know, I still may not want to. I feel like I should take him off my mental list of supports." T: "I wouldn't do anything to shorten that list." Me: "Yeah, I guess maybe just move him much further down it." T: "Yes."

I think I said something about putting ex-MC behind me. T said with people who are securely attached (as in, not me!), they can hold another person's feelings with them and don't need the person there. And they can also hold stuff from past interactions with people, too. Like they can recall that they had that connection with someone, value it, and trust that they can feel it again with someone else. He said he hopes I could get to that place with ex-MC. I said I wished I could get there, too, to the point where I could fondly remember positive interactions between us, but I'm not there yet. And that I wanted to be able to feel good about the positive stuff and how the relationship really meant something to me and was healing to me at times, without having to feel that it was tainted by the ending. T said he hopes for the same.

We had maybe 15 minutes left. I said I wanted to address a conversation I'd had with H Monday about ex-MC. I said how I'd already shared my email to ex-MC with H, and Monday evening, I was telling him how I'd spent the whole session on ex-MC stuff, how stuff with him had been weighing on my mind, and I was sorry if I'd been kind of distracted the past week or so. I said I hoped he was OK with it, and H had said, "Well, it does bother me a bit that you're upset about not getting an email back from another man." T: "Oh!"

I told T I wasn't sure how to respond to that. (T and I had talked in the past some about how the ex-MC stuff was probably difficult for H.) Me: "Yeah, I'm not sure how to explain my feelings for him." T: "I'm not sure *you* even fully understand those feelings." Me: "Yeah..." T: "So that makes it difficult to explain to H." Me: "I want to explain how much of it is transference, like stuff from my past and my parents, it's a different sort of love. But I don't know that he understands."

T: "Well, you may have to put it in Man Speak for him." Me: "Uh, OK. Could you maybe help me with that, since, you know, you're a man?" T closed his eyes for a moment, thinking (he does that often). T: "OK, I'd suggest saying something like this. 'I understand your concern about ex-MC. But I want you to know that I don't love him. I don't want to have sex with him. I don't want to be married to him. The feelings I get from him, they're from something I didn't get from my parents. So it's more about that.'" Me: "OK, I think I just worry he'll wonder why I can't get those things from him." T: "Well, the stuff you missed from your parents is different. Like, wanting them to accept you, to be proud of you." Me: "Yeah, while I guess a spouse is more of a reciprocal relationship." T: "Exactly." Me: "Maybe I'll see if there's a good time to talk to him about it..." T: "see how it goes."

Me: "I guess I also worry that...does he think of every male in my life as 'another man'? Like, does he think of you that way? If I tell him something funny you said, is he thinking, 'She's telling me that another man made her laugh.' As opposed to if it was something ex-t had said, because she's female?" T: "Well, you could always just ask him." Me: "I'm kind of afraid to. I mean, I talk about stuff from session sometimes because I feel like I want to be open with him. And I feel like, if I'm not sharing something I would have otherwise shared, like a joke, then why am I hiding it? Like he talks about his coworkers, some of whom are female, and a couple I know who are attractive. But I mean, I don't have coworkers now, so."

T: "Well, you could use the same Man Speak thing here. You could tell him, 'I don't feel anything at all for Dr. T.'" I couldn't look at him when he was saying that or for a bit after. Because he knows that's not entirely true. Like, he knows I find him to be attractive (I've told him). And I've told him before that I care about him and have a bit of platonic love feelings. (Of course it's nowhere near the level that things were with ex-MC--that was astronomical and overly complicated because of all the paternal transference stuff mixed in, which I don't have with T. T doesn't hit my receptors the same way ex-MC did, and I don't think he ever could.) But no way was I opening up that can of worms with 3 minutes left. And he was just talking about what to say to H. So I just said, "OK."

Talked another minute or two and was time to stop. He asked if I could come in at 9:30 instead of 11:30 Sunday, I said was fine. He said I could bring along a caffeinated beverage, and I said I likely would. He said of course he'd have his coffee. Confirmed next Thursday.

Went over and paid. He stood up and walked around his chair toward me. He usually stays sitting, and I thought he'd forgotten the handshake. He held out his hand, and we shook hands as he said,"Have a good...what day is it? a good few days." Me: "thanks, you too." T: "I'll see you Sunday." Me: "OK." T: "Take care." Me: "You too."

T asked about my holiday memories and I talked a bit about various foods from childhood. Later she made a comment about how most of my christmas stuff is focused around sweet foods. I felt ashamed that I couldnt share more personal memories yet and a bit judged, (i have food issies) I told her this and explained why.

She replied that she hadn't meant it like she was judging me. She has given up sugar recently and it was more a reflection on how so much xmas food is sweet and she is bummed out not to be having it.

She looked me in the eyes an apologized .

She also said how impressed she was I had said something right away instead of shutting down.

I really like my t.

We started ten minutes late, which is a bit unusual--he's often running from somewhere else on the hospital campus which makes him open his door a few minutes after the hour but not like this. It doesn't bother me, especially, because he always makes up the time at the end (though sometimes that means I'm a bit late for group afterwards).

HWMNBN asked what I had for the agenda. I said I'd had a good week, and felt like it might have had something to do with the fact that our last session had felt nice--like some part of me that had been screaming had been quieted, like some need of mine had been tended to. I also had to talk about a scheduling conundrum related to whether or not I should tell some people I'm working with that I've got a mental illness (all the people at my current workplace know, but I'll be rotating at a different hospital; it's complicated b/c I might want to work at the new hospital someday so I have a desire to seem impressive to them). He, of course, wanted to talk about what he so awkwardly phrased "dating updates." (Just to be clear, I don't think he has some kind of prurient interest in my dating life--he just wants me to be doing the sorts of things that other people my age are doing like dating and spending time doing fun things and that sort of nonsense. My annoyance is with his persistence and his sort of awkwardness in doing it.)

Anyway, I told him that that I classified the week as a good one mostly because I only felt really terrible once. (I had an upsetting meeting and felt really awful but managed to hang in there and go to a movie with a friend instead of cancelling or worse.) We talked about the dates I'd been on (one okay, one really kind of lovely).

Ack okay wow the NyQuil just set in--to be continued (hopefully tomorrow if this stuff makes me sleep through the night)

Today was... Intense.

I had been considering talking to him about my wish that he would express more emotions, unlike when we first started working together when I communicated that it was very important to me to not do so.
But in the end I didn't need to.
but that Wednesday when I had been feeling really bad I started with writing a list of basically all the things I blame myself for in how I handled things as a child. Things I feel guilty about. Some of it was pretty mean to myself I guess.
But that I'd then gone on to make myself refute those beliefs and write more reasonable or fair interpretations.
He asked me about sharing the stuff I'd written and when I got through the third item

He stopped me at that point to tell me this was really hard for him to hear.
I asked him what he meant.
He said it hurt to hear me say those things about myself.
After pausing for what seemed like a moment of self reflection about why he was feeling or saying this he kind of carefully said something about it triggering something for him. I don't usually see his processing of his own thoughts and feelings in real time like that.
He compared it to feeling like he would
I didn't really know how to respond so I was kind of half jokingly like "so I'm going to guess that means you would find that upsetting." He sounded sad when he said yes, that would be upsetting for him.
He said he didn't mean that I shouldn't share it and he was glad I was talking about it, but he needed to tell me that it hurt to hear. I don't remember exact wording, but it was expressing that it was something he thought it was important for me to know, not about a need to say it for himself.
I kept myself from apologizing because I didn't want him to feel like he'd made a mistake by telling me that.

After a bit of silence I asked if I could read the rest and he said yes and I did.
He commented again on how difficult it was to listen to.
He said something about me being a child and emotions or something, and, as I always do when he brings that stuff up, I made an involuntary face of disgust and curled up tighter and turned my head away more. He pointed it out, as he's been doing lately.
He said something about what I'd think if it was any other child or something.
Oh and he said I would not say those things to the child. I admitted that, while I never would, part of me would want to lash out and hurt the child with cruel words. He said yes, but that would be because I'd want to make her shut up because it was too painful to face those feelings. He hadn't put it quite so bluntly before. I couldn't look at him.

I don't remember exactly what preceded the transition, but I told him that he'd prefer the second half/find it better. He said "I hope so."
I believed him. It really did seem to have bothered him. I'm not sure if today was worse than usual for some reason or if he just wasn't intentionally not letting it show.
I read the second half.
It was things like

after, he said he was glad I wrote the second half. When I was finally able to look at him again he looked and sounded less upset and more relieved. I half jokingly asked if I had been right that he'd like the second part better. He said yes.
I told him I knew it was stupid and I already knew what he'd answer, but did this mean that he didn't agree with the stuff in the first half?
He said yes, he didn't agree with it.
I asked if he thought I deserved to hurt myself, and he said no.
I asked if he thought I was a bad child. He said no. I said it really really feels like I was. That there's just this deep sense that I was bad and wrong. He said that's common for children who are abused. That it didn't make it true. I may have wiped away a tear at that point.
I'm still not used to him calling it abuse. It feels like that's overstating it.

Also I can't remember at what point these things were said, but he said something about me protecting my safety and I said I knew I wasn't in danger and he said it wasn't emotionally safe for me to be vulnerable.
I also expressed the fear/belief that everyone on some level thinks like my mother and will think less of me for being vulnerable or emotional. He said he hoped I didn't include him in that belief and I was like ... um ... Sometimes.
At some point when he was saying it was hard to hear me say this stuff about myself I said it wasn't exactly fun to feel either. That sometimes I really really hate myself. And it's a bad feeling. I don't remember how he responded. Probably something about progress and changing that.
At some early point we talked about my feelings of detachment and numbness and how at those points the earlier feelings don't feel real and I feel like I must have been faking it or exaggerating.
He said I had learned to shut off and suppress the emotions because I couldn't handle them at the time.
He made a personal disclosure, which he does very sparingly and with minimal detail, about an experience he had involving very intense emotions that were too much for him to handle and that it felt like a dream, and that he was always aware of the fact that that was because his brain was protecting him from those emotions, and he never thought that must have meant he was faking it or something.
In a way it helped, but in a way it was also much more understandable for the experience he was describing.

I still don't really know what to think of all of this. I don't know why me saying those things about myself that I've said a million times before was different today. And if the difference was in how he felt about it out in what he showed. I do know that it helped though and I think I needed that. But now I have to wait 13 days until my next appointment and I'm seeing my father for two days right after Christmas. So it's definitely bad timing and I'm worried that I'll move several steps backwards.