[stopdog]

The $500 verizon bill was what caught my attention as well. Perhaps verizon is their entire internet provider - not just cell phone - like verizon fios.

[UnderRugSwept]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Unrelatedly, $500 to Verizon?! HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?!

Or if it's a family plan of some kind with a lot of people on it.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by UnderRugSwept

Or if it's a family plan of some kind with a lot of people on it.

I hope he was exaggerating!!!

Maybe he said it on purpose to bait us! Cuz he knows we are picking at his every word!

We are not amused!!

(Actually we are )

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I hope he was exaggerating!!!

Maybe he said it on purpose to bait us! Cuz he knows we are picking at his every word!

We are not amused!!

(Actually we are )

Maybe! And I think he actually mentioned it twice during session, like to make sure I included it. I suspect he either gets cell phones and TV/Internet on one bill (we use Verizon for both, but get separate bills for phones vs. TV/Internet--still not at $500, but we don't have the highest-level plans) or he just picked a random high number. He also has talked about the exchange of money like, "You get support from me, and I have to pay for groceries, so you help me do that."

[DP_2017]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I hope he was exaggerating!!!

Maybe he said it on purpose to bait us! Cuz he knows we are picking at his every word!

We are not amused!!

(Actually we are )

Too funny. Made me laugh right away this am.

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

Focus on the relationship or not, but it's your time.

Agree but as her friend and I've seen her in a lot of distress over it time and time again, I tried to encourage her to not focus on it so much and try to focus on herself. She was doing amazing with her goals for other things. Everyone will ultimately decide for themselves what to do. The forum comments are basically take it or leave it suggestions

[DP_2017]

LT

I kind of suspected, that like me, you struggle accepting care from anyone. it's REALLY messed with my head with T leaving.... but I think I know the reality is, it's not that I can't believe he cared, I know logically he did, I'm scared to believe he still might. I'm unsure why and hopefully baby T can help with that but I keep going back to that. I'm glad you are doing better with it. I'm trying. Like with my best friend, if she says she cares, I don't laugh like I used to. I just say thanks and go on. It comes down to you and I and our self worth, which we both really need to work on.

I'm unsure if you are interested in this but baby T gives homework every week, of course it's not required but I usually do it for my own self. The current thing could possibly help you as well. He wants me to write a list of things to congratulate myself for, because I struggle to believe I'm worth it. I'm supposed to read it there on Thursday. I haven't done it yet but I will. I'm hoping things like this help me feel better about myself so I can get to the place of accepting care.

[Xynesthesia2]

$500 for cell phone alone is easily possible if one makes many and/or long international calls, for example.

[toomanycats]

$500 for phones is also possible if one is still paying off multiple smartphones using their stupid monthly payment installments. Just for my husband & me alone, when our phones were new, it was like $200/month bc $90 of phone payments on top of the service.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I'm curious about how you feel about the comment about working things out directly with your mom. Working through mom stuff is a major component of my therapy, and it doesn't involve my actual mom at all. It reminds me of the other thread about using transference to cast somebody in a role and then playing out whatever is "stuck" in a more healthy way. My mom is alive but unequivocally unavailable and unable to work on our relationship. I've cast my T in the "mother" role, in part to get the care I've been craving and in part to work through the ways my emotional development got stunted and derailed in childhood. (I also basically stopped trying to have a relationship with my mom at about the same time, not by coincidence). So even if my T and I are talking about the therapeutic relationship (which happens often and in a fairly detailed and intense way), what we're actually talking about is my conception of myself, how I see other people, and how other people see me.

I'm glad Dr. T isn't going there if he doesn't know how to do that, but I also think it's interesting that you keep getting pulled back toward wanting to do therapy that way. I've noticed that my core inner work seems to have a life of its own, so much so that I've long since stopped having an agenda for most of my sessions. It's interesting that your "work" seems to keep dragging you back to particular social dynamics or ideas with him (acceptance, intimacy/vulnerability, caring, etc).

I think you can greatly improve your life and relationships without doing the psychodynamic-y stuff, but I can see that it keeps calling to you, no matter how much you and your T try to steer away from it. I hope you don't feel too affected by value judgments from other people that you should do therapy one way or another because there is value in many different approaches. Focus on the relationship or not, but it's your time.

Unrelatedly, $500 to Verizon?! HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?!

You've given me some good things to think about (aside from the Verizon bill!) T has mentioned the possibility of bringing my mom in for a session, though doing lots of preparation about it beforehand. And that I couldn't really have any expectations for how she would react--it would need to be more about me expressing things that perhaps would be easier to express with a third, supportive party in the room, as opposed to just with her by myself. He's also suggested things I could say to her on my own.

And he's talked about trying to see her as someone else with anxiety and that much of the way she parented me came from that--how it was about her, not me. Like her trying to push me to be more extroverted, to call friends back immediately, to accept all plans and never cancel might be more about her fears that I won't have friends, or her own fears about her own friendships. Or her focusing on my mistakes rather than my successes. Which is something I could do without actually talking to her (I'm sure she'd never admit to having anxiety, but it's glaringly obvious that she does--it just manifests itself differently than mine). I have found I'm handling her a bit differently and being less affected by some things she's said. But I'm still not sure actually talking to her about some of those things will help.

I think the fact that the work with him keeps hitting up against certain issues helps show what I need to work on. Because it's not like some of those issues only come up with him. Early on, he said how part of his goal is to help me realize how others in my life might react to things I say or do. Obviously, he's not in their heads. And some of it has been quite difficult, when he's said how, say, ex-MC or H might have been reacting to something I said/did. But, over time, I've realized how having that insight (even if he doesn't know what they're thinking, but just things to consider) can help me.

And I think some of this stuff playing out with him is also helping me handle relationships better. He'll tell me things and react in ways that others in my life might keep inside. In some ways, I feel he's been the most honest and open (in his reactions to me, not about his personal life) person I've had a regular relationship with in my life. (well, excluding a couple supervisors/advisors, but they were honest in a more negative, harmful way...). I feel strange saying this, but I'm sort of fascinated by both him as a person/T and our relationship. I'm not used to someone being honest like that. And I feel that it's helped me become more open and honest, too, which has had a ripple effect on my other relationships.

I do get what you're saying about the psychodynamic stuff--you're certainly not the first to say that (and even T has said it). Sometimes I think that's what I need. Other times, I think I'm where I'm supposed to be right now in terms of therapy. That I sort of want to take things as far as I can with this T, as I feel I'm progressing. If we hit some sort of major impasse/rupture, then I'll maybe take a break and see someone else for a period of time. Or if I seem to plateau with him or am continually hitting up against things and I can no longer handle not getting what I want from him, then it might be time to move on. But right now, I'm also seeing value in not necessarily getting everything I want (like unlimited free emails or frequent reassurance) and working through how I feel about that and how he feels about it. (Words I never thought I'd say...)

I'm also worried that if I see a psychodynamic T--particularly one who is warm and fuzzy like ex-MC--that I'll get kind of stuck there. Because I feel like with ex-MC, had we not had the big rupture (which was maybe inevitable at some point), I may not have ever wanted to leave him. Because he often made me feel good and accepted. And I liked that feeling. T has also said he wondered if I would have left on my own without some sort of rupture. And T's goal is more to ultimately send his clients off into the world. Which is in fact what I'd like. Maybe to continue seeing someone monthly, or to return if life becomes really challenging (which he said he does with some clients).

But it's something I'm going to continue to reevaluate. I didn't include this in the writeup, but T and I talked a bit about that. I said how maybe it would help me to just decide to commit to seeing him (barring a major conflict) for a set amount of time, like, 3 months or 6 months. He said that could be good, how it makes sense to question whether I'm seeing the right person regularly, but doing so after every session or even monthly could be taking up a lot of energy. And I agreed with that. So, we'll see...

ETA: Wow, that got much longer than I'd intended!

[susannahsays]

It's interesting that you don't think he's giving you frequent reassurance. Maybe you just tend to write more about the reassurances he does give. I wonder what frequent reassurance would look like to you, and also if your pattern of reassurance seeking is not just anxiety, but more complicated, like an OCD behavior. When you talk about it, that's what comes to my mind.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

It's interesting that you don't think he's giving you frequent reassurance. Maybe you just tend to write more about the reassurances he does give. I wonder what frequent reassurance would look like to you, and also if your pattern of reassurance seeking is not just anxiety, but more complicated, like an OCD behavior. When you talk about it, that's what comes to my mind.

I think I'm just someone who seeks lots of reassurance. I could definitely see it being an OCD thing, as I have that as well. It's interesting that from your perspective he does give a lot of reassurance. Do others think that as well? I may have just been spoiled by ex-MC.

[DP_2017]

Yes he definitely gives it often. More than many ts i read about

Your current t is probably closer to how average people are although he gives more than most too but yes ex mc was way more than ts typically do. Thankfully current t is not ex mc.

I just think you work more on your value and self worth you might not need as much reassurance

[LonesomeTonight]

Cross-posting from couch because it's relevant. Will post more about session later (not sure if tonight or tomorrow):
T made a parenting analogy about his role as a therapist today. And used a couple related analogies in terms of his work with me. Like bird teaching its young to fly. But not pushing them from nest until he knows they can do it, then he’d be there cheering them on. Also about never pushing me into the deep end of the pool before I’m ready. It was sort of confusing as he doesn’t tend to do that. And it made me think of ex-MC, who did often make those comparisons. Lots of emotions right now.

[DP_2017]

Yep that's a good way to describe therapist in our lives

It's ok to still have emotions over ex mc. Grief never ends really it just gets more manageable. You will probably always miss him and have sad times and it's ok

[JaneTennison1]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I think I'm just someone who seeks lots of reassurance. I could definitely see it being an OCD thing, as I have that as well. It's interesting that from your perspective he does give a lot of reassurance. Do others think that as well? I may have just been spoiled by ex-MC.

to me, responding to emails is a form of reassurance even if paid for. my understanding is that he isnt paid for every email right? Yet it is important to him to reassure you. From what you report it sounds as though he is reassuring you in session also. he doesnt, however, break his boundaries of contact to reassure you like ex mc used to and maybe that is something worth exploring.

I know I have a hard time accepting care that isnt rooted in chaos and hurt because it is so confusing and new to me. ex mc blurred things and ultimately made things difficult and yet it is easier to think he "cared" than someone who will be there in a predictable, consistant way. It's easier sometimes when the chaos is familiar to think of something g as reassuring and caring even when it is not.

rambling away, sorry!!

[Xynesthesia2]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

It's interesting that from your perspective he does give a lot of reassurance. Do others think that as well? I may have just been spoiled by ex-MC.

Yes, I do. It may be because I am more on the opposite end of the spectrum and very rarely seek reassurance from people, it was also similar in therapy.

I am pretty sure that your T finds you and working with you super interesting. I always have the impression that he likes challenge and you challenge him all the time in many ways, including to broaden his knowledge and therapeutic toolkit.

BTW, you may not idealize this T but I can do it for you And I am not someone prone to idealizing people. But when it comes to therapists, the ones I have encountered and read about here, your T is still by far my favorite. Perhaps because I am not so much into the very deep and extensive psychoanalytic type work many people here on PC love when it comes to therapy for myself and would prefer a more practical approach (in spite of being a very analytical and introspective person), but I love to read about it and explore on my own in everyday life.

One thing I wonder: when (many) people here suggest that you might do better with a T who is more of an expert working with transference and attachment, what would it be like and what benefits would it have for you? I personally don't have the impression, reading the session posts, that this T's style deepens your attachment and transference, more the opposite, that it keeps it at bay. Funny, I think we readers here project a lot of subjective things into your therapy

[susannahsays]

Here are some articles on the subject you may find interesting since you do have OCD. One thing one of the articles mentions that I found interesting was the concept of reassurance vs. support. That could be something helpful to think about if you ever want to work on scaling back the reassurance you're asking for or receiving without just making yourself white knuckle it and try to cope on your own.

OCD and the Need for Reassurance

Reassurance: How it Prevents Recovery

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

Here are some articles on the subject you may find interesting since you do have OCD. One thing one of the articles mentions that I found interesting was the concept of reassurance vs. support. That could be something helpful to think about if you ever want to work on scaling back the reassurance you're asking for or receiving without just making yourself white knuckle it and try to cope on your own.

OCD and the Need for Reassurance

Reassurance: How it Prevents Recovery

Thanks for sharing these. T has mentioned today and at other times providing support. I guess I hadn't thought of the differences between that vs. reassurance. It seemed today when he was talking about how he could respond to me when he thought I could handle something that he would express support as opposed to reassurance. So this makes a lot of sense. I think ex-MC tended more toward reassurance, even though he'd say "I shouldn't keep reassuring you." But he'd keep doing that.

[ElectricManatee]

I feel like he does provide a decent amount of reassurance, but I get the sense from your write-ups that you feel like you have to really express your need for it loudly before he will provide it. He won't just offer reassurance to you at key moments, and that gives him a flavor of being ever-so-slightly withholding. It seems like the dynamic is that he doesn't meet your moments of deep emotion with any emotional depth of his own. This bothers you, you discuss it, then he finally clarifies his support/caring/etc. That's more my observation, although I can't really say whether this is a problem or an unhealthy pattern on either side.

[stopdog]

It looks to me like you are doing the same sort of thing like you did with your female therapist and the marriage counselor - the marriage counselor was good and the female therapist was not. And the marriage counselor got you when female therapist did it wrong. Now it is current therapist who is good and marriage counselor who is not. That this guy is reacting slightly differently may or may not ultimately be useful to you - I hope he is.
But just my observation.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

It's interesting that from your perspective he does give a lot of reassurance. Do others think that as well? I may have just been spoiled by ex-MC.

Yes, more than any T I have ever seen. The articles susannahsays posted resonate with me as well. I think receiving reassurance has the potential to keep us dependent instead of forcing us to sit with our uncomfortable feelings and learn how to self-soothe and build up our sense of self-esteem where we no longer require that external reassurance. In my experience, not having access to reassurance is what forced me learn to live without it and become emotionally self-sufficient. I used to want reassurance much like you describe, but now it doesn't even occur to me to want it or ask for it.

[Amyjay]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

It's interesting that from your perspective he does give a lot of reassurance. Do others think that as well? I may have just been spoiled by ex-MC.

I see the intensity with which you seek reassurance more important than how much T gives or doesn't give. I don't say this judgmentally. I know it would be easy to read this post in a judgmental tone, but I am not writing with one. (I think I am reassuring you, here!) This is an observation. I have observed that your need for reassurance is so overwhelming to you that you often need that extra email contact or extra session just to be able to get through your day. That's how much you have a need for it.

I sometimes wonder... what would happen if T wasn't able to give it?

[Anne2.0]

It might be interesting to experiment with going without reassurance, something you would discuss consciously with T and make a decision about, or develop a plan to reduce it. Then see how it feels. In my opinion, seeking reassurance so often is a way to stay on the surface and an impediment to looking at what drives it or what is underneath it. You can tell yourself you need reassurance before you can move forward, but I don't see much to support that is in fact true.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by susannahsays

It's interesting that you don't think he's giving you frequent reassurance. Maybe you just tend to write more about the reassurances he does give. I wonder what frequent reassurance would look like to you, and also if your pattern of reassurance seeking is not just anxiety, but more complicated, like an OCD behavior. When you talk about it, that's what comes to my mind.

The article about reassurance vs support is really interesting! It would be interesting to dissect a real example. Also im reading the new book about procrastination and wondering how it ties into that. I believe i have the learned helplessness form of procrastination, that whatever you do, its never good enough, so eventually its why even try, it always blows up in your face. So its learning to tolerate that distress and do it anyway.

Eta - i dont see exactly how we could apply the reassurance vs support article to LT's situation of when her t said he was supporting her, when she said she felt he was palming her off to the addiction specialist. The criteria is reassuring things are going to be okay (bad) vs supporting feeling distress (good). She said she wanted his support, but was she really looking for reassurance? Is that it? Seems like a very fine line!

[LonesomeTonight]

Will try to respond to some of the posts later--I do appreciate everyone's comments. Just wanted to post Monday's session.

T Monday. First half of session was really just me filling him in on the past few days, which had gone pretty well (dinner with an old friend Friday, visit to a farm with H and D Saturday, hung out with H Sunday). I said how I knew I was talking about less deep stuff, and T said, "Maybe that's what you need right now." I said he was probably right.

I really can't even recall how we ended up on this topic. It was something about his providing care and support to me. T compared it to being a parent and the challenge of not doing everything for your kid, like being a helicopter parent, and being the opposite end, like "just rub some dirt on it, it will be OK." How it can be difficult to find the exact right middle ground. I said I knew what he meant about being a parent. And shared how that morning I'd told D she could put her shirt on herself, but I stood there in case she had trouble. He said I'd handled that well, and it was a good example.

He talked about how you have to support a child but also help them toward independence. And compared that to his role as a T. Used the analogy of a bird teaching its young to fly. How it can be scary for a client to do that, but he's there cheering them on, saying, "I knew you could do it!" I asked if that happened, ifhe thought I was doing well and managing things OK, would he decide that he no longer had to reply to my emails? He said I knew his policy, that he'd still always reply. But he might say something more like, "Your instincts in this are correct, and I think you're handling it well." (Or something like that.)

I asked if once you leave the nest, that's it, or can you come back? That of course I eventually want to go back to weekly, then biweekly, then maybe monthly. He said he has a couple clients who have continued seeing him monthly, how they say it keeps them accountable and from slipping into a bad place.

I expressed more fear that he'd want me to "fly" before I was ready. He switched to a different metaphor, talking about the deep end of the pool. He said he'd make sure I had time in the shallow end first. T: "I wouldn't throw you in the deep end before I know you're ready. That wouldn't be fair." I said I appreciated that. But what if he thought I was ready but I didn't/wasn't? I forget what he said to that.

I said this was all reminding me of when ex-MC compared how he was working with me to teaching his son to ski. How he kept moving gradually further away. Me: "And he reassured me that he wouldn't leave me on the mountain. But then he kind of did?" I mentioned how on Thursday, while I was waiting to turn out of T's parking lot, I saw ex-MC walk out of his office and go up the sidewalk (he didn't see me). And I just sort of watched him for a few seconds while I waited to turn. Said how Thursday is the anniversary of termination.

I guess we ended around there? He asked if I could switch to a different time Thursday, so I did. Scheduled for the following week. Went over to pay, and, shaking my hand, he said he hoped I could continue the positive trend from the weekend. I thanked him and said I hoped so, too. T: "Take care." Me: "You, too."

I was hit by a bunch of paternal transference for him after the session, which isn't generally something I feel for him (some ET at times and some authority figure stuff, but not quite the same as paternal--it's hard to explain). I typed up an email to him that evening, but didn't send it. Figured I'd think about it until the morning. Managed to not send anything before 9 (he usually would read/reply to email before that time). But then I got really emotional and ended up emailing him around 11:30 am, knowing full well that he might not get back to me until the next morning. He ended up replying at 7 that night.

Me: "Hi Dr. T,
I tried hard to deal without sending email. But I'm really struggling with some paternal-ish feelings toward you from session (baby bird, deep end of pool). It's scary, partly because of Dr. Ex-MC. Promises he made, saying he wouldn't leave me on the metaphorical mountain (teaching to ski), when it feels like that's what he did.

It also struck me how I had to be perfect/good to get care from my parents, whereas with you, it feels like the opposite--if I'm doing good, I won't get as much care (at least outwardly). You commented I had a good weekend; that feels like one step closer to the deep end of the pool. (Even though you said you wouldn't throw me in if you weren't sure I was ready, and I keep telling myself that.) I know that's the goal. But it scares me. I suppose we need to examine why?
Thanks,
LT"

T: "LT-Sorry that you are struggling, but I think it's in part because of a misunderstanding. You said that "if I'm doing good I won't get as much care." What's actually the case is that the better you are doing, the less you'll need or want the care. We can talk more about this on Thursday, since I think it's an important issue. Your feelings about what you need take precedent rather than my interpretation of what you need. I'd also like to talk a little more about your feelings about Dr Ex-MC and your feelings of abandonment, if that's OK."

I really appreciated his response, as it helped me think about things differently We'll discuss more today.

Note: You can comment on this but PLEASE no criticism of my decision to email him. I'm doing the best I can right now. The fact that I was able to wait nearly 24 hours is progress for me (and it had been over 2 weeks since I'd emailed him--I'm not counting the asking for an extra session last week, as that was a text and merely asked what he had available, with no other content).