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#1
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Hi PCF,
I'm a MA-level clinical psychologist in training going under counseling (unrelated to my training). We have a most peculiar kind of alliance rupture I can't put my fingers on. Perhaps this is quite simple and I just can't see the forest for the trees. I've been in this private, self-funded therapy with my integrative therapist for about 100ish hours. We have an excellent rapport, excellent relationship. There is a sense of some shared interests (psychology, sports). I sense there is a deep and caring atmosphere for me, and I actually do care for my therapist. T couldn't take my caring well initially, but grew accustomed to. During our last session T burst out in tears that therapy has to be done the correct way, and for T it looked like we're just talking like friends. I mentioned, I still have a great sense of development and movement in my life. I'm getting closer therapeutic goals. T couldn't accept me being content on the grounds that during the last couple of sessions we weren't professional enough. It looks like as if professional conduct and my experience of helpful sessions are in conflict. Shedding some tears T mentions the need of not being transparent and that boundaries weren't invented just for nothing. T kept referring to professional conduct. I was at loss for words, I couldn't reply with anything to comfort T. On my account, there weren't any boundaries violated. Or was it me, who violated, when I replied empathically to a T self-disclosure? Somehow this I doubt. There were a couple of boundary crossings though, so I can understand where T is coming from regarding not having completely sanitized sessions. From my standpoint, this looks like a weird case of therapeutic rupture, where the break is coming from the expectations of the therapist instead of the client. I wonder how to continue? T emphasized how it's bad that we're talking like friends. T really wants to do a good job, but talking like friends is a no-no. It just occurred to me, T might think of me as a friend? Would it be the right thing for me to end the counselling sessions? I can let go of me visiting T in the office, but it would be devastating letting go of the relationship. It is a great source of comfort and a powerful incentive of development. I appreciate your thoughts. |
![]() *Beth*, chihirochild, Fuzzybear, LonesomeTonight, precaryous, SalingerEsme, SlumberKitty
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![]() Quietmind 2, SalingerEsme
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#2
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It does sound like there is a friendship that is interfering with the process of therapy. Your T shouldn't be disclosing much personal info to you and she shouldn't be bursting into tears in *your* therapy.
What is going on there? Something has gotten muddled. |
![]() *Beth*, Fuzzybear, HarperF, LonesomeTonight, Quietmind 2, SalingerEsme, susannahsays
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#3
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It sounds to me like your T might have developed some insecurities about whether she’s being a good therapist. I personally find a bit of self disclosure on the part of the therapist helpful. You describe it as being a weird kind of rupture, and I wonder if you have the expectation that ruptures would be ‘caused’ by the client. In my experience therapists tend to be imperfect and to bring their own insecurities or stuff to the relationship.
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![]() HarperF, LonesomeTonight, Quietmind 2, SalingerEsme, susannahsays
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#4
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Could she being having a lot of self doubt.
Also, since you are training to be a counselor yourself, maybe she thinks she has to model a perfect by thr book theraputic relationship. Maybe she feels like by having looser boundaries whe is providing you a bad example of what therapy looks like. While not a counselor myself, I work in a hospital psychiatric program. I saw a long term therapist who worked in my community. We often discussed the state of the mental health system in our state. She self disclosed quite a bit over the years. We had some sessions that very little hard work happened because I needed a break. Usually this fallowed some intense sessions. We saw it as continuing to build our theraputic alliance.
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![]() Elio, HarperF, LonesomeTonight, Quietmind 2, SalingerEsme, susannahsays
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#5
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I’m sorry, what??
Your T is complaining about lack of professional conduct... how “boundaries weren’t invented for nothing” or “therapy has to be done the correct way” when THEY burst into tears?! Who is breaking boundaries here? That is not being very self-aware. Your T seems to have major counter-transference. IF they want the relationship to be more ‘professional’, they ought to do some self-reflection themselves. I don’t think you are the one who violated boundaries. Your T was in it too, and seemingly participated in this not-so-professional dynamic. The break seems to be coming from your T overextending themselves and where the boundaries became blurred for them. He/she needs supervision and a good dose of self-awareness. What is happening between you two seems to be more friendship-based and, unless your T behaves more professionally, I don’t see how it could be a therapeutic relationship going forward. |
![]() *Beth*, Favorite Jeans, HarperF, LonesomeTonight, Omers, Quietmind 2, SalingerEsme, susannahsays
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#6
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I also believe that your T is experiencing a major case of countertransference. It's pretty clear that she needs to consult her own therapist, or someone, for supervision.
__________________
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![]() HarperF, LonesomeTonight, Quietmind 2
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#7
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I think we got too close to comfort. |
![]() *Beth*
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#8
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Yikes. When your T talked about "professional" and "boundaries," I think she was talking to yourself, not you. She clearly has a different sort of relationship with (or feelings for) you than is typical for her with clients, and it's making her uncomfortable and insecure. She definitely needs supervision, and perhaps her own therapist to help sort this out. It's not on you.
I am a T-in-training and my T and I have as a therapeutic goal to shift the relationship from client-therapists to collegial over time. This is a necessary goal, because our community is small enough that we already have overlapping relationships, we know many people in common, and we will run into each other in professional settings. So it's not wrong, per se, to have a therapeutic relationship that is atypical because of your shared profession, but this needs to be done carefully, thoughtfully, intentionally, and with transparency. And without your T bursting into tears. |
![]() HarperF
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![]() *Beth*, Elio, HarperF, LonesomeTonight, Quietmind 2, susannahsays
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#9
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For me, T's disclosures were big of help, because I could clearly see what comes from who in the relationship. T is certainly not an ideal neutral surface that I could project to. On the ruptures - there is a considerable chunk of literature on alliance ruptures coming from the client, but I haven't found anything that would cover ruptures caused by the therapist. |
![]() Quietmind 2, susannahsays
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#10
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I think T has run out of energy to keep this contained. T didn't look very composed at the start of the session. Maybe T is overworked or something happened outside the sessions? Quote:
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Yes, I can totally understand this. How ironic that T is behaving unprofessionally because T's overt zeal to be professional. Last edited by HarperF; Oct 25, 2020 at 07:57 AM. |
![]() *Beth*, Quietmind 2
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#11
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I personally do not love how the literature talks about ruptures, as if they are something that "comes from" the client. That's not how I see it. The rupture is in the relationship and the relationships is between two people (not belonging to either), it is co-created, and each person brings things to it. When we have ruptures, my T and both talk about how we each contributed to the dynamic at play. We, of course, spend more time talking about my stuff, because it is my therapy, but he owns his part in things. |
![]() *Beth*, ArtieTheSequal, Brown Owl 2, HarperF, LonesomeTonight, Quietmind 2
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#12
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![]() Quietmind 2
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#13
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![]() HarperF
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![]() Brown Owl 2, HarperF, Quietmind 2, susannahsays
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#14
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IMO your T should have taken their emotions and reactions to supervision... that is excellent fodder for supervision.
My T and I have an extremely strong relationship that does often feel like a very close friendship... except that it is confined to set therapeutic times, places and boundaries. We don’t go off meeting in coffe houses or visiting each others homes. We have a lot of common interests and we often share about them. I know a great deal of his family, hobbies and life outside the office. All of this has furthered my healing without a doubt. Some clients need their T to be a Dr in a lab coat that prescribes interventions to fix their emotional state. I need a relational human being that has set this time aside to join with me, sometimes guiding me, on this journey towards greater wholeness. Keeping with the journey theme it is like going on a long hike up a mountain... sometimes the trail is rough and you focus only on continuing up the mountain. Sometimes the ruggedness opens into a beautiful meadow with a cool breeze and you chat, perhaps pausing a moment to enjoy that spot on the journey... but you are still on the trail, still climbing the mountain. To say that such a beautiful rapport between therapist and client is unboundaried or detrimental is garbage. My T often reminds me that the therapy is the relationship.
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There’s been many a crooked path that has landed me here Tired, broken and wearing rags Wild eyed with fear -Blackmoores Night |
![]() Lonelyinmyheart, LonesomeTonight, precaryous, Quietmind 2
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#15
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![]() Yes, T is very keen on taking the responsibility. Actually T is pretty zealous of taking responsibilities. T is an amazing therapist, who helped me overcome pretty harsh as well as hard-to-see difficulties in life. I have trust that we can resolve this, and I will post updates to this thread. I'm very grateful for your responses. You are a really great help! |
![]() Quietmind 2, SalingerEsme
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#16
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We don't even have an official name in our language for relational psychotherapy. About 90% of the things I read I have to do it in English. Quote:
And yes. Our rapport is definitely not unboundaried. I think where we go wrong is that when T does a self-disclosure T doesn't trust it's for my use. T starts self-doubting. Then makes up for it by giving extra time during the session. This T disclosed last sitting. I probably left off some details, as T was pretty vague regarding the time issue - mentioned the connection between the two, but also told, this slip with keeping time must be telling about something! |
![]() LonesomeTonight, Omers
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![]() Quietmind 2
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#17
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I find it interesting your T's stress around "doing it right". With everything that has happened in 2020, my T has opened up more. I have actually struggled a lot with having deep sessions. What has happened though is when I have those moments of deepness, my T goes pretty quiet.
In short, it seems she is following my lead, even when conversations are more like friends, she still has her T hat on and is ready for me to lead us into something deeper. When I make one of those more reflective statements or questions, she quiets down and changes how she interacts with me, it becomes more supportive, encouraging, and analytical. She also subscribes to the belief that more causal sessions are there for a reason and does not discount the therapeutic value of them, even if the value is to strengthen our alliance. Which leads me back to your T's stress around "doing it right". For a T, isn't "doing it right" all about focus and intent. If she feels you guys are simply talking like friends; isn't that more about her feelings and thoughts on your interactions, that she's losing that focus rather than what is being discussed or done in the moment? The red flag I saw when I read your initial post and through the tread was how you might find yourself in the situation where the interaction start having moments of you being her therapist or supervisor rather than you being able/allowed to stay the client. It is a dance and it might be hard to see how things move through out the sessions and the relationship. I agree transparency and discussing what life might be once you have completed your therapy with her will be important since your community is small. |
![]() HarperF, LonesomeTonight, SalingerEsme
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#18
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Though T is very intuitive in providing excellent therapy, on the conceptual level makes professional boundaries - by which T means the Freudian trinity of anonymity-neutrality-confidentiality. In T's head any breach from anonymity/neutrality is a technical mistake. When I say it's useful to me, or bring up its uses in non-classical psychoanalysis, T says those are important in Gestalt and CBT as well. Usually we stop there, as both of us understand, theoretical debates are not quite suitable in the therapeutic relationship. Quote:
I put that on the account of T being such conscientious that would go even that far. Which makes me think, in spite of T's opaqueness and hiding, I really do know T. Yet this makes T uncomfortable -- because it's not aligned with classical analytic thought. Even though T is not a classical Freudian, but thinks that is the only professional way of doing therapy. Quote:
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![]() Elio, LonesomeTonight
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#19
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I do not think this is at all appropriate. If my therapist burst into tears and shared what yours did with you, I would begin searching for a new therapist immediately. If possible I would also cease further therapy.
__________________
"I carried a watermelon?" President of the no F's given society. |
![]() HarperF
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#20
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This might be that we're not a good fit professionally...but then, I've reached 4 pretty different goals with T in less than 100 sittings. And T is by far the best fit for me that I ever worked with. Maybe it's a personal fit. |
![]() LonesomeTonight, SalingerEsme
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![]() Quietmind 2
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#21
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In this thread, you are very oriented toward taking care of your therapist, and empathizing with her, mentalizing.
This is backwards. She might be on to something about the dynamic, but she is handling it unprofessionally herself. There is zero pressure on you to be "professional", you are the patient here. Part of her job is to offer a safe space consistently, and you seem to now feel the relationship is threatened . You shouldn't be in the position of needing to set boundaries and telling your own T to work this out in supervision, but here you are. It seem like a good amount of countertransference is affecting her. I hope she steps up next session and repairs. I wonder if she has trouble accepting care in her real life, or if the whole backdrop of 2020's stresses is getting to her? You seem like a rewarding client, open-minded, self aware , and insightful .
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Living things don’t all require/ light in the same degree. Louise Gluck Last edited by SalingerEsme; Nov 02, 2020 at 06:28 AM. Reason: spelling blooper |
![]() *Beth*, BarefootBeach, Elio, Favorite Jeans, Lemoncake, LonesomeTonight, Merope, Quietmind 2
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#22
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Thank you for the reply. I've got some update on this, as we've just had a session with T again.
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What T did find uncomfortable and was vocal about is having our sessions reach over 30 minutes of assigned time and attributed it to T's compensation for making too much self-disclosure, therefore using my time on T's interest. (these boundary crossings in time did not mess up T's nor my daily schedule though) However, I've found T's self-disclosures immensely helpful, so we've concluded that this was an insecurity on T's part. We are now keeping time. I guess another boundary looseness that makes T uneasy is my friendly, direct conduct. I am not willing to give up on this, as I have to be congruent in the relationship in order to work on myself. T reciprocated this. We could really connect as two persons. This might be fine with person-centered therapists (my orientation) but unprofessional by T's standards. Quote:
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Where my anxiety comes from at the moment, if we can't carry on counseling, will I lose the personal and the psychologist-psychologist dimension of my relationship with T? T is extremely conscientious and considers to be conservative. We're colleagues after all, and actively do the same sports. Post-termination meetings are inevitable. I mentioned to T, I'm ready to consider termination, as I've gained so much from our sessions. T agreed, but for now we're checking how we're working out. After our previous sitting I felt a bit like we're committing violence to our natural relationship, so I'm leaning more towards termination. It would hurt me though letting T go completely out of my life, as T was an important, personal ally when talking, as psychologist-to-psychologist, about professional issues. I guess that might been a gray area T didn't had cleared up, as T acted like a real person, someone who T is not comfortable with in the framework of therapeutic work in retrospect. What is hard at the moment is that it's clear that T can't handle this smoothly. I would be happy to make this a collaborative effort, but that really takes its toll on T, and I'm naturally concerned about our personal relationship. To add insult to injury, T has disclosed a couple of months ago, that T always had very bad experience with each of T's supervisors. When things are as complicated as this, I think termination is probably the best option, as T's therapeutic framework with such elements is practically unmanageable. Last edited by HarperF; Nov 05, 2020 at 06:08 AM. |
![]() Fuzzybear, LonesomeTonight
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#23
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#24
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Rupture got resolved. T is emotionally over-involved on a couple of subjects that are current for me. We also have too many things in common to divert in a personal talk, we'll aim to eschew these topics. T got genuinely insecure about having T's issues showing up in a direct way in therapy. The rupture came from T's core issues were triggered by my current issues, and we've grown to have a closer, more personal relationship, where T's self-disclosures - while directed to be helpful for me - got T carried away, because it was helpful for T as well. During these times we were working more like two clients in a group therapy setting. We've talked these through. I feel this was a major breakthrough. I'm awesomely happy about the situation, and it actually helped me immensely to resolve my issue to see someone battling with it, almost the same way as me. We're in the ending phase now.
T is a very serious therapist, and our sittings were hardest to bear for T professionally as now. This was a place of immense growth for both of us. I'm going to miss our days in counseling, but I feel happy to think about our relationship having fulfilled its purposes. Thinking about it retrospectively, I don't find it useful to conceptualize T's reaction as countertransference. It was real in that T was both an active participant in an ethical dilemma, was questioning T's own expertise, and T's problematic pathologies got triggered. T is now attending supervision. Both of us are happy with the current outcome, and the plans for the future. |
![]() *Beth*, LonesomeTonight, SlumberKitty
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![]() *Beth*
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#25
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I'm glad the issues seem to be resolved and that your T is in supervision for it now. However, "T's problematic pathologies got triggered" sounds exactly like countertransference to me...
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![]() HarperF, Rive.
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