[Xynesthesia2]

I haven't posted on this forum for a long time, but this topic interests me very much, I hope it's not against forum rules to discuss it. Has anyone tried any form of therapy that involves the use of psychedelic drugs during sessions, or outside of session but under the guidance of a therapist? If yes, what did it involve and what was you experience like? Any benefits or adverse effects? Would you do it again?

If you have never experienced this but care to elaborate, would you be interested, and for what purpose(s)? In case you are against it, why?

I would appreciate any kind of comment.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2

I haven't posted on this forum for a long time, but this topic interests me very much, I hope it's not against forum rules to discuss it. Has anyone tried any form of therapy that involves the use of psychedelic drugs during sessions, or outside of session but under the guidance of a therapist? If yes, what did it involve and what was you experience like? Any benefits or adverse effects? Would you do it again?

If you have never experienced this but care to elaborate, would you be interested, and for what purpose(s)? In case you are against it, why?

I would appreciate any kind of comment.

here in america psychedelic drugs (mushrooms, LSD and so forth) are still considered illegal.

besides that treatment providers dont want to cause someone to have hallucinations by giving them something that is specifically for causing hallucinations. treatment is usually on stopping hallucinations not giving meds to make a person have hallucinations.

my suggestion if you feel you need these drugs contact your treatment provider, they can help you get approval for legal but equivelent pain reducing products like medical marijuana card. or narcotic containing medications. depending upon what meds you are put on will depend upon whether that meds is approved by your insurance and problems and many you will need to see your treatment provider every 30 days for controlled substances here in america require a new valid prescription every month.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

I haven't used such drugs during sessions, but have outside of them and done so a few times while being in therapy. I told my T each time beforehand and we talked about it after. I have also done them a few times before starting therapy.

I think the outcome of doing therapy on them depends on some factors, especially the relationship to the therapist, as well as whether the person taking the drug has done so before. I also think certain drugs would be better than others for this purpose (some take longer to wear off and I doubt most Ts would sit with you for 12 hours, for example).

These drugs usually have a lot of things going on besides the emotional component. So if you're doing them for the first time, that might be very distracting as well as uncomfortable. The visuals are one of the more fun things, but if you're doing therapy during that, it might be distracting or you might miss out on the visuals, which I'd personally think is a huge downside (it's something that you can only experience yourself, I've never seen images doing a good job of what it looks like and feels like, and it's a unique experience in my opinion). Also, there's a lot of physical effects, mostly an upset stomach, feeling restless, feeling like you constantly need to stretch, which might be distracting for therapy. If you're used to it, then an hour or so in, you'll be fine with just ignoring those effects, but if it's a first time thing, you might concentrate more on those things. This might also lead to a considerable amount of time used up just to manage those symptoms instead of doing therapy.

For all the psychedelics I've tried, I've also found that it's sometimes very hard to articulate things. Your thoughts jump all over the place, sometimes you just lose interest in whatever you were discussing. Sometimes you're very amazed by things that later on are not amazing at all (I remember one time laughing a whole lot about our neighbors having a boat in their yard, since it wasn't in the water, I thought that was very profound, but it isn't really, is it?). So a therapist that knows how to deal with that and has experience in leading such a conversation is certainly a must.

I think there are certain benefits that could be gained from doing therapy on these drugs. They can make you very emotional and also give you the 'clarity of mind' to see what you need to change (for example I always realize I should work out more, eat healthier, drink less) and the strength to actually do those things after. There is - at least for me - a pretty strong effect after the drugs have worn off, sometimes lasting over a month, where I'm more motivated to change things, work on myself and feel much less depressed. I could also imagine that if the therapist was trained in dealing with somebody who trips, there might be benefits from doing talk therapy. However, the relationship would have to be fairly strong for that to work properly, in my opinion. The client would have to feel comfortable enough to say whatever is on their mind without any fear of the therapist, since otherwise the client might become scared or feel unsafe with the therapist, which would probably not be beneficial. The T would have to provide for some things that normally aren't part of therapy as well, for example space to walk around in and rooms to switch to in case the client becomes uncomfortable, food and drinks. Since all of these things can become 'weird' under the influence of these drugs, the therapist needs to know about the possible reactions of their clients and plan accordingly. For example, cheese can look very unappetizing when moving and the client might not want to eat that, but fruits can be very fun to eat, which might in turn then also distract from the actual therapy. One might argue that if the session only goes for an hour, there's no need to provide food and so on, but in my experience, almost for the whole duration of the trip there is room for having important realizations, so only doing therapy for an hour would not be the best. Also, in the case it were done like that, the journey to and from the therapist would have to be dealt with somehow. Another thing to consider might be that boundaries tend to become kind of weird on these drugs, so it might be very confusing that one can't get a hug from their therapist or that he doesn't want to answer certain questions.

While I haven't really learned anything new about myself from talking to my T about the trips afterwards, I can say that therapy has helped me during them in managing my anxiety and caring for myself. And the trips themselves have shown me insights which I otherwise might never have had and have in general been an experience that I'd personally not want to miss. I have had the wish at least once to contact my T during a trip and share some things with him, but I was afterwards very glad I did not.

An additional thing to consider is that the drugs can have interactions with psychiatric medications, so that might be a thing to consider (I personally take an SSRI and have found to affect my trips by shortening them a lot).

[Xynesthesia2]

Thanks, ChickenNoodleSoup, for the detailed and thoughtful post. I've had a fair amount of psychedelic experiences in my life as well that I never discussed with a therapist. The last T I saw had an interest in this and told me that he also explored quite a bit when he was younger, but I never talked with him about mine too much as most happened long before I saw him, and a bit after stopping therapy. I agree that a conventional one-hour therapy session may not be appropriate for an active experience but, as you say, could be used for integration.

I'm interested in this because there is so much research going on in this area these days and a lot of initiatives to develop clinical settings, practice and follow-up for it legally. They definitely don't aim to be like a normal psychotherapy session, including extended time, in some cases, they have two therapists assisting instead of just one, and much more emphasis in setting. There are also more unorthodox approaches, e.g. when the therapist would also take the drug with the client, so it is not a one-sided experience (I believe those Ts don't run sessions like that too often, or at least I would hope!). I did a retreat once with a group and a mix of scientific/clinical and shamanic practitioners, and the retreat center also offered follow-up integration work afterward in private, but that's not exactly psychotherapy. I really liked the group aspect though, doing it with multiple people and having varied perspectives. Also liked that they required a thorough physical before attending the retreat and attestation from a doctor that there wouldn't be any known physical or psychiatric contraindications.

[*Beth*]

I'm wary. Perhaps it depends upon your diagnosis, also upon how suggestible you are. The reason I'm wary about using psychedelics is because the one time I did acid (LSD) it had a very negative effect on my mind. I had had some derealization, starting from childhood. While doing acid the derealization got worse. Afterwards, it was out of control...the derealization was persistent and remains so. This was many decades ago. I believe the acid did some permanent damage to my brain.

Until there is solid, medically approved info on the exact effects of psychedelics I wouldn't go near them again.

[nottrustin]

Do you know what the benefit if it would ne?

I can't imagine using mind altering drugs during therapy. Neither of my both of my Ts have said if I show up under the influence of any substance (including alcohol) it would not be beneficial to have our appointment.

wr

[LonesomeTonight]

I think this could include ketamine, right? I think that's legal, at least in my state. And I wonder if, say, mushrooms might be legal in some places if used medicinally, like with a prescription? It's an interesting topic for sure. No personal experience with it!

[here today]

It is on the ballot here in my state, to be voted on in a few days. If it is approved, I will definitely look into trying it. The presence of a licensed facilitator will be required.

I have had depression and been in and out of therapy much of my adult life. Existing treatments haven't helped much and in some ways made things worse. That has apparently been the experience of others who have tried psilocybin and found it did help. I plan to ask about taking a less-than-usually effective dose to start with, to make sure I tolerate it OK.

[Xynesthesia2]

Here is a Wiki article about it, which has some history and some areas of application where it is considered.
Psychedelic therapy - Wikipedia

This article doesn't include ketamine, but many also like to discuss that under this umbrella. That is indeed now legal in the US, some forms and administrations at least, if it's done according to specific regulations and for certain diagnoses (mostly severe depression), usually at clinics that specialize in it. Insurance typically doesn't cover it though for psych purposes. Typically it is administered at a clinic during sessions designed for this but, where I live, there are now organizations that offer it also to be used at home and the therapists' role then is to prepare the client and then help integrate the experience.

The other one that is getting close to ketamine's clinical availability is MDMA which, like ketamine, is often not considered a "classic" psychedelic, but it definitely has strong mind-altering properties. A main area of application it's being considered is PTSD.

Psilocybin (the active ingredient in magic mushrooms) is not legally approved yet for therapy, only via research studies, but there is a lot of research going on in the context of various issues such as depression, anxiety, addictions, eating disorders and more.

The other drugs are even more experimental at least in the US, not used in formal psychotherapy.

Personally, I've tried most of the major psychedelics at some point recreationally, but usually with the intention of exploration, not much to party etc. I've had some good experiences, some less remarkable, and a few more negative in the moment at least, but nothing damaging. I was usually quite careful and methodical with it, but never supervised, except in that retreat outside of the US. I do not have any other formal, solid diagnoses though except generalized anxiety and had addiction and an eating disorder in the past. I must say that simply using psychedelics on my own didn't help my addiction, and once I had a really horrible experience when I mixed mushrooms with high doses of alcohol (okay that was not wise and very scientific for sure), not even during the trip but the days following. The effects of it went away completely, but did also scare me away from psychedelics for years afterward.

[stopdog]

I am pro -non big pharma drugs, although psychedelics have never interested me enough for me to take them. I am more in favor of cannabis for myself. I would think it an interesting idea and, other than absolutely not trusting a therapist to be around if I was tripping, sounds like something that might benefit people if we can get the hysterics around non-big pharma (ie - money) to go away

[guy1111]

I'm not sure this would help with mood disorders since psychedelics are just temporary mood altering drugs. Wouldn't you need to use them indefinitely to maintain a stable mood? Also, with behavioral disorders wouldn't it be hard to manage high order cognitive skills while dealing with the unpredictably changing brain states and hallucinations associated with psychadelics?

Just playing devil's advocate.

On the upside, sounds like fun

[Xynesthesia2]

Originally Posted by guy1111

I'm not sure this would help with mood disorders since psychedelics are just temporary mood altering drugs. Wouldn't you need to use them indefinitely to maintain a stable mood? Also, with behavioral disorders wouldn't it be hard to manage high order cognitive skills while dealing with the unpredictably changing brain states and hallucinations associated with psychadelics?

Just playing devil's advocate.

On the upside, sounds like fun

Well, fun for some people... not so much for others. I think I would definitely be one who would have fun and find it interesting, but not sure with the kind of setting that is often considered for a therapy session now. Client lying on a couch with eyeshades and two therapists staring at them for hours. I think that setting would very much disturb (if not destroy) my experience. It should be individualized much more, but it's tricky because nearly everyone would probably prefer a different setting, which people can create when they use drugs on their own, even more in a group retreat like the one I attended (which lasted a week, so enough room for variety), less in a small office.

One main reason behind the "hype" around using psychedelics therapeutically is that the effects have the potential to last long, with minimal direct administration/experience, unlike most established psych drugs that we need to take regularly, long-term. This part needs a lot more research though and there will certainly be a lot of variability between people. Even with ketamine (that we have more data on now), most people need repeated doses and, even then, it may not last very long. The advantage is that when it works, it often works very fast unlike (again) most traditional psych medications, so it could snap someone out of a crisis.

As far as the mood altering properties, the idea is not to prolong the actual psychedelic state - that would not be good for sure. More to use the experience for insight and then apply that to improve one's life (with or without external help). There may also be direct pharmacological after-effects, but that's exactly the area that needs much more research in a clinical setting, because most of the reports about long-term benefits are still anecdotal, even if some of that has hundreds of years of human tradition associated with it.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

If someone is interested, Ketamine is not a psychedelic but a dissociative, it has a different effect though some parts are similar (both classes are hallucinogens). Though both psychedelics and Ketamine can be used to help with depression.

Re how many times you'd have to take them: I have found that the effects (on my mood, not the high itself) from mushrooms last for a month minimum, most of the time even a bit longer. But as far as I'm aware, the idea would not be to take them say once a month. Instead, it's kind of like a reset switch, you take it once and then you're a lot less depressed. In that time where that effect holds on, you can now work on things that normally you can't due to the depression. Say someone is far too depressed normally to start a workout routine and we know physical activity helps with depression. If they have a month or even a bit more to start working out say 5 times a week, then this in turn will have an effect even after the initial effect from the psychedelics have worn off and hopefully the person does not slip back into a depression that's as deep. Plus there's a potential for having insights that you normally don't have which if you can hold on to those insights might help in the long run.

[Xynesthesia2]

Yeah, it's just that often ketamine is looped in with the other psychedelics when people refer to them, especially in a clinical context. Similar for MDMA or sometimes even cannabis with high THC content.

I also found the mood/motivational effects of mushrooms lasting for months, and the insights useful for years. Even more with DMT/Ayahuasca, although the latter is not suggested/considered for clinical use yet so openly, but they have very long-winded traditions. My personal favorites were psilocybin (mushrooms and also tried in pure form once) and Ayahuasca. I never repeated the latter much but, with mushrooms, more than ~5 experiences within a year actually hindered it rather than increased the effect (and I regretted not taking a break earlier), and definitely no more times than 1x every 2-3 months. Only tried Ayahuasca in that retreat, during one week, involving three sessions, but it's given me so much food for thought, I haven't felt a desire to repeat ever since.

I personally found the acute psychedelic effects immensely interesting and fun, but I know not everyone enjoys them, and there is some serious contraindication for people who have known psychotic conditions. There is a recent research study showing that someone who suffered from very severe depression and was apparently prone to psychotic states also benefited from psychedelics, when the drug was administered together with an anti-psychotic. Apparently the patient had no hallucinogenic/psychotic effects, but still has mood benefits. That person got a lot of drugs, maybe a bot excessive IMO.
Frontiers | Treatment of a Complex Personality Disorder Using Repeated Doses of LSD—A Case Report on Significant Improvements in the Absence of Acute Drug Effects | Psychiatry

[Xynesthesia2]

One of my most intense interests regarding psychedelics and mental health now is related to a brain system known as "the default mode network". It regulates many things developmentally, has been closely linked to the development of what we often describe as a sense of self, consciousness, and many "disorders" (including the so-called personality and dissociative disorders) where these things do not develop normally or get out of control, due to a great variety of factors, both inborn and environmental. Possible dysregulation in this network is also known to lead to various mood and behavioral problems.

The New Science of Psychedelics: A Tool for Changing Our Minds
Psychedelics and the Default Mode Network – Psychedelics Today

I have never been diagnosed with any personality disorder and never never even doubted my integrity in that regard... the "well-integrated" nature of my psyche has been commented on by my ex-Ts as well in my early 40s, even the "bad" T who had little clue about these things and was very self-absorbed and narcissistic. I sometimes wonder now if my mostly careful, methodical use of psychedelics in my later 20s has contributed to this introspective identity and sense of self? A lot of my most intense, personal, self-exploring journey started back then... and never stopped later, except during some very dark, but always temporary periods later in life. It was only severe substance addiction that halted it (I believe I am genetically predisposed as there were severe cases in both lineages of mu family), but was even fairly easy to recover my strong sense of self and interests once the addiction had been resolved for a few months. Maybe I could achieve these things relatively easily as I had a pretty decent, supportive childhood with good enough parents... I actually often think my early childhood was preventive, as many more serious mental health issues run in my family, for people who have not had similar childhood and care.

There might be an inborn predisposition, but "nurture" might be able to adjust it somewhat, and then it's easier to build upon that with independent explorations? Conversely, if that was not established "from start" it may be much trickier to apply any external intervention... including psychedelics.

[Xynesthesia2]

Following up on the above: perhaps those who "think/feel" they do not have a strong sense of self actually have it too strong and inflexible?

[here today]

I'm one who has said that I feel like I don't have a good sense of self, so I will respond.

Like with psychedelics, I've heard that deep meditation, or even sudden experiences of "enlightenment", are also experienced as a lack or loss of the ego. I've experienced something like that, I think, with some guided meditations, though not often on my own.

To me, what I call my sense of self is not the same as my ego. And maybe it's the disconnect or something between the two that is troublesome. I'm coming to understand and feel sometime that there's my sense of being -- without content, just being. And that's a kind of sense of self. A base-level self, maybe. And then there are the various aspects of social and personal identity. And the feeling that those are me, too. Only. . there can be this mismatch between them.

I do believe my sense of right and wrong, and who I was and should be socially, was overly strong and inflexible. And that that developed as a defense and coping mechanism because of the splits/disconnection in . . . whatever it is/was. . . Something in the limbic system, maybe, due to developmental trauma? So, then. . .some people say our current society is too egoic, self-focused, etc., and perhaps it is -- but I do think and feel like a realistic self concept is needed in order to function well. And then, that realistic self concept also needs to be related well to the base-level sense of being. They aren't the SAME, though -- that's something I have gotten from my own meditation, and from some lectures by a Buddhist monk.

So they all go together -- base-level sense of being, which often goes overlooked. Integrated emotions. Self-concept and social identity, what it seems like is usually referred to as the ego. And I guess when they are all connected -- and regulated? that 's what I would call a sense of self? That what I want, I guess, that's what would feel like a sense of self to me.

Maybe I've peered inside myself so much, and worked through emotion so much, that maybe I'm close to getting it? I would like to hope so. More flexibility? Yes, definitely. And redefining self concepts? Yes, that, too. It sounds like the psychedelics may help with that?

[koru_kiwi]

thanks for bringing this topic up and sharing your experiences and knowledge about it. it's quite and enlightening discussion to open up.

personally, i'm all in support of the use of psychedelics to help in the treatment of mental health issues, especially in regards to MDMA in the treatment of PTSD and CPTSD. i have been quite interested and have been following the official studies that MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) has been conducting over the recent years, especially in regards to MDMA assisted psychotherapy for PTSD. the outcomes have been quite positive as it has moved into the third and final phase to achieve FDA approval. because of these promising outcomes, i decided that i wanted to give mdma a try to see in what ways it could help me therapeutically and since last year i have completed four sessions now. i'm doing these session on my own, with my husbands support and as my trusted trip sitter and without the assistance of a therapist. ironically, my ex-T is now quite interested in the healing capabilities of psychedelics himself and is seeking to becoming a psychedelic psychotherapist. but even with knowing this, i personally have no desire to have him, or any other professional for that matter, assist with my mdma journeys or with the integration work afterwards. i find my mdma guided journeys to be incredibly profound, sacred, and very personal experiences that i desire to only share with someone i deeply trust and love, and the only one i feel who is worthy of fulfilling that role is my dear husband, who knows and understands me better than anyone else.

the healing i have achieved with the help of the mdma has been absolutely amazing! it's unlike any thing else i have ever tried and i never imagined i would have come this far along in how i feel about myself and life. the gentle and euphoric quality of the mdma has provided me with the safety to go deeper into my issues than i ever thought possible, helping me gain entirely new perspectives and insights which has lead to moments of profound healing. this is something i could never fully achieve in therapy, because i could never fully experience that sense or level of safety with my ex-T.

interestingly enough, the most profound aspect of using mdma is that is allows me to experience myself as being a 'whole self'. i've always experienced myself as being fragmented and separate into different parts due to my dissociation (DID). that fragmentation has become more connected over the years as i have progressed with my healing, but there is still some level of disconnect, that i will probably always experience. when i am rolling on the mdma, i eventually reach a point where i can feel all my separate parts/alters coming together, where they actually feel very 'fluid' in the connection they are shraring during this time under the influence. there is a sense of them freely sharing thoughts, emotions, feelings and memories with absolutely no barriers, hinderence or disconnect. i believe that this quite possibly is what it must feel like to experience oneself as 'one', a whole person with no dissociated or fragmented parts. to be fused as one and not a 'multiple' . these fluid moments of wholeness are incredibly beautiful and unlike any other experience i've ever had, filled with acceptance, warmth and unconditional love for every aspect of each part/alter who make me, me. as i come down and the mdma begins to wear off, this sense of wholeness fades and i eventually feel more like my 'normal' (fragmented) self, but while still maintaining an afterglow of the profound experience.

when researching about mdma assisted therapy, i quite enjoyed reading 'Trust, Surrender, Receive' by Anne Other. also, if you have not seen the film 'Trip of Compassion', i highly recommend it. "Trip of Compassion" — The Most Compelling Movie I've Seen In The Last Year – The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

[Xynesthesia2]

For now, I just want to say thanks so much here today and koru_kiwi for reading this thread and posting your views/experiences/perspectives. I was hoping that both of you would engage in this conversation, as I've been reading your posts for years I have a very busy day now, but will reply at the weekend.

Koru_kiwi - I love Tim Ferris' work and have been following it this year especially. He has become quite mainstream and criticized over time a lot, but I like him because he is a lot like me in interests, values, style, approaching life, and even his entrepreneurship. He is investing in a lot of research on psychedelics, and I am very grateful for that, because I do research on this now

[here today]

I found this quote from the article you mentioned below very interesting:

As our prosperity rises, our mental health is on the decline—and fast. Rates of depression, anxiety, suicide, addiction, and other psychological disorders have skyrocketed in recent years, and nobody knows what to do about it.

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2

. . .
The New Science of Psychedelics: A Tool for Changing Our Minds

Psychedelics may be able to help individuals, but I think there is a larger social issue, too, related to what you said here:

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2

. . .
There might be an inborn predisposition, but "nurture" might be able to adjust it somewhat, and then it's easier to build upon that with independent explorations? Conversely, if that was not established "from start" it may be much trickier to apply any external intervention... including psychedelics.

For instance, what kinds of social factors affect the DMN, both developmentally and later, and how?

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2

For now, I just want to say thanks so much here today and koru_kiwi for reading this thread and posting your views/experiences/perspectives. I was hoping that both of you would engage in this conversation, as I've been reading your posts for years I have a very busy day now, but will reply at the weekend.

happy to contribute! and i hope more people will engage with the conversation and share how they feel about this topic.

getting ready to leave for a holiday (and do another mdma session with hubby while away), so i will try to check in when i have a moment and reliable internet access, but apologies in advance if it takes me a while to join back into the conversation.

BTW glad to see you back here!

[Xynesthesia2]

Thank you koru_kiwi so much for sharing your fascinating journey with MDMA, it is incredible even to read! I never heard of the Trip of Compassion documentary before but watched it last night and completely shared Tim Ferris' enthusiasm afterward. Thanks so much for suggesting it, I've already also recommended it to some others. It changed my subjective perception about psychedelic psychotherapy sessions as well quite a bit - the way it's done in the film does not look aversive to me at all, it rather induced a desire to try this myself someday. My Ayahuasca experience was kinda similar in the sense that there was a group of people and the providers and I never met them until a couple days before the first trip. I personally loved sharing parts of my experiences with the group and with some specific individuals afterward. I saw quite some variety in how the different group members wanted to experience their trips in the social context, which was interesting. But I also know more about doing it with an intimate partner as that's how most of my mushroom trips happened in my late 20s.

I would be curious about how you coordinate your own MDMA experiences. For example, how do you time them, do you plan long ahead and prepare for them somehow? How about frequency and dosage, how do you decide on these? Do you vary what exactly you do during? Do you discuss it with your husband in depth afterward? Only if you would like to share more, of course

Here is MAPS director Rick Doblin's TED talk for those who would like a quick overview from the head of the organization that manages and promotes most of the psychedelic studies and mental health applications in the US these days:
Rick Doblin: The future of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy | TED Talk

Here today - I have some colleagues who work on those questions about the DMN and social environment now. They try to model some things in a research study, but also collect many different details about their study subjects' life and history. The experimental part is a mix of brain imaging, surveys, and computer games that mimic certain situations.

Rick Doblin does seem to equate the sense of self with the ego in the above talk, but I would also argue it's much more complicated and multi-faceted.

Here are some relatively recent articles about the DMN and social functions, including some related to early life. Most are quite technical articles but it's probably not that hard to get some of the conclusions. They also show examples for how scientists study these things.

Neuroscience: The Default Mode Network - Brighton Talk Therapy

Default Mode Network Connectivity and Social Dysfunction in Major Depressive Disorder | Scientific Reports

influence of relationship closeness on default-mode network connectivity during social interactions | Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience | Oxford Academic

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...78929317302153

I don't think anyone knows that type and level of social dysfunction, trauma, when in development etc can be effectively helped with psychedelics. What kinds of DMN, self and social issues can be helped with these medicines and what may be resistant to treatment. I think the accounts that well-known, persistent developmental disorders can be helped in this way for some people is very encouraging, IMO. It's always so fascinating to me to hear when someone with dissociation and a long-standing fragmented sense of self reports these things improving and how they start to experience a more cohesive identity and self - fascinating, because I don't personally understand dissociation from the inside, I can't even imagine well when people talk about working with parts... what it might be like to experience oneself that way. I couldn't even apply one of the widely-used mental methods to addiction recovery, which involves consciously splitting our sense of self and desires in two and accepting one while rejecting the other, the max I could kinda try is realizing the addictive urges were specific moments and elements of the same person. That method didn't work for me to develop better inhibitions, or any inhibition at all, I just could't compartmentalize and isolate "parts" of me in that way. I think one serious limitation why psychotherapy is often not very effective for those things is also that the Ts do not really comprehend it... probably a bit like psychedelic states in a sense that you can't truly imagine before having a fist-hand experience. You can study and analyze intellectually, but it's not the same.

People are really just starting to study these things about the DMN and psychedelics in depth, but a lot is coming out and and will in the next years, I think. If you want to give it a try, I would also think why not - you have already tried many other things. What you said earlier about starting with a lower dose is probably a good idea. That's how I also started my explorations and gradually increased the dosage when I felt I wanted more. I found that I was very sensitive to the effects of these drugs from start, doses that apparently did nothing or very little to other people (even considering body size) gave me pretty interesting and engaging experiences.

[susannahsays]

I have not, but I would if I had the opportunity to do so. In fact, I did try growing my own mushrooms. Unfortunately, contamination ruined everything. I have not tried since as I know the spores had been released into the air in my house. I'd forgotten a wet dishcloth in my instant pot, and it started growing on that, too. It was particularly undesirable because they were contaminated with aspergillus flavus, which produces aflatoxin. I'm fairly certain the contamination originated with the popcorn kernals I used. Aspergillus flavus is very heat resistant, so the usual methods to sterilize (using heat or a pressure cooker) do not work.

The therapist is a bit square and was very against me trying psychedelics. She is very ignorant on the subject and persisted in her willful ignorance despite my attempts at educating her and pointing her in the direction of scholarly sources.

I still hope to try mushrooms at some point.

[Xynesthesia2]

I did most of my mushroom trips in the past in a country and during a time when they were legal there, similarly to how cannabis is dealt with in the US now where it is legal for recreational use. It was even too free I would say, as you could buy them even on a market, just like vegetables. I liked much better the specialist shops where they also had information on all the different types and we could discuss any question or concern with the employees openly, without feeling that we were talking about some underground secret. Ironically, they banned them around the time when I left that country.

I don't think I would have ever done that much and that comfortably if they had been illicit drugs as I never feel very comfortable breaking the law (one reason I also tried Ayahuasca in an environment where it is legal and the providers have demonstrated experience). Well, surely I still did some psychedelics under the table, but never felt truly comfortable in that way, including because you never know what you get. The promise of all these current movements is that it would be open and available to people but at the same tome highly regulated. Of course then we would still have to face similar things to what is going on about CBD now, for example... not so easy to find a reliable product that is marketed transparently, and the hype is way too much, selling it like magic that can help everything.

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia2

I would be curious about how you coordinate your own MDMA experiences. For example, how do you time them, do you plan long ahead and prepare for them somehow? How about frequency and dosage, how do you decide on these? Do you vary what exactly you do during? Do you discuss it with your husband in depth afterward? Only if you would like to share more, of course

there are quite a few resources that i found helpful when i was first researching and learning about doing the mdma assisted therapy:

the manual (protocol) that MAPS uses for their mdma assisted therapy sessions (free to download) A Manual for MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy in the Treatment of PTSD - MAPS

'Psychedelic Psychotherapy- a user friendly guide to psychedelic drug assisted psychotherapy' by R Coleman Amazon.com

there is also the Castalia Foundation (founded by Timothy Leary) that has released a protocol for solo mdma therapy. some aspects of the guide were quite helpful, others were not: https://ia902906.us.archive.org/5/it...DMA%20solo.pdf

and if you are familiar with reddit, the community in the sub r/mdmatherapy has been is incredibly invaluable for me with many of the personal stories, experiences and information shared there.

in the beginning, i was doing my sessions about 12-14 weeks apart, but for these last two, the time in between has been longer because i have been doing them based on when the time has been feeling right to me...more on a gut feeling, listening to what my mind/body seems to be craving. but as i've done more sessions, and have integrated more issues, i've noticed that need or desire seems to waning and i don't need to do sessions as frequently.

in regards to planning the sessions, i do spend time preparing, like putting together a personalised music playlist that will be long enough (7-8 hours). i often do sessions on a weekend so i have time to relax and reflect after the session. i also go into the session with an intention of at least one issue i want to focus on, but the best thing is about this powerful medicine, is it seems to know exactly where to take you and often i unexpectedly address something that i was not even considering. a lot of healing can happen because of the insight that is revealed and this is where the integration work afterwards comes into play. i'm discovering that the integration process actually can last for many weeks afterwards. i often write or journal to help with the integration process and also talk and share aspects with my husband.

what i like best about the mdma therapy is how internal the process of the sessions are with most of what is going on is taking place in my mind and body. i talk very little and my husband mostly is sitting with me, offering words of comfort or encouragement if i seem to be struggling a bit with the process, or he offers physical comfort by holding my hand and/or holding/cradling me. he often says very little unless i'm the one talking to him. i actually find the physical holding and comfort he can provide me to be one of the most helpful aspects of this therapy with him and it actually has helped promote some of the most profound experiences of my healing.

your shroom trips with your partner in your earlier days may have had similar aspects to what i'm doing with my husband. there is an incredible sense of safety being able to do the sessions at home with my husband who i trust like no other. after my 'less than satisfying' experiences with regular psychotherapy and never being able to fully trust or feel safe with my ex-T in the relationship throughout my therapy with him, i'm pretty confident that i will continue to do my sessions this way and not seek the assistance of a therapist. these mdma assisted sessions have such an immense quality of sacredness for me that i have no desire to share that experience with someone i fear could potentially let their ego or issues get into the way. but i'm not adverse to others seeking the assistance of a therapist if that is what they desire or reckon they need. there definitely are many ways and options to heal with psychedelics and i believe it's quite personal and about finding what works best for each individual and the healing they are seeking achieve.