[Luce]

Feeling soooo confused about my therapy appt today. T told me she is struggling to understand her own reactions to me... when with me she feels 'unreal' or 'not like herself'. She can't figure it out. She said she is fine with everyone else but with me she just feels 'un-real'. I really don't know what to make of that...

She also asked if I felt it were possible to develop a connection with her, or if I thought I would be able to with someone else. From my perspective, I think I have developed the beginnings of a connection, at least. I know I don't trust much ( at all, really) and that what feels 'comfortable' for *me* likely feels like an aloof awkwardness to others... but it's kind of as much as I can give right now.

And then after that I was trying to explain that I hide so much of myself and share so little because I do not know her thoughts on DID... whether she adheres to the trauma model or the sociocultural model (therapy induced)... and I (we) am afraid to show those parts or talk about them because we fear her rejection ... and she replied with this speil about how recent research has shown that schizophrenia is not genetic, and is triggered by environmental factors, blah blah blah, and "does that answer your question?" (Umm... noooooo...)

Aieee, so confused.
What I am interpreting from her is that she is not comfortable with me / thinks I am lying ??/ perceives me as 'not real' / is struggling to connect.

There aren't really any other T options for me right now.
My bad luck, I guess.

[pegasus]

Originally Posted by Luce

Feeling soooo confused about my therapy appt today. T told me she is struggling to understand her own reactions to me... when with me she feels 'unreal' or 'not like herself'. She can't figure it out. She said she is fine with everyone else but with me she just feels 'un-real'. I really don't know what to make of that...

Wow! I'm gob-smacked. Please tell your T she needs to be discussing that in supervision, not with her patient!

Hugs (((((((((( Luce ))))))))))

[ECHOES]

!!!!! Countertransference happens but isn't for discussion with the patient/client any more than any other of a T's personal issues.

I'm sorry she has confused you.

[Luce]

Thanks Pegasus and Echoes. I know about transference and countertransference, but didn't know T's shouldn't be talking about that with their clients. I hadn't considered that aspect of it.
I guess I don't know what to make of that, either.
I think I need to sit on this a little more and figure out what I think.

((((((((((((((((((((Luce))))))))))))))))))))))))))

T has talked a little bit about countertransference reactions with me when they have directly impacted me and my therapy in an obvious way...although he probably has a lot of things that he just deals with or takes them to supervision, because he doesn't tell me that kind of thing very often.

I find what your T said kind of interesting- T has told me that when I dissociate and leave the room, it makes him feel lonely and sleepy. Almost like what your T is saying?? Maybe they are just very attuned to us?

It's weird and hard to talk about DID. I go back and forth between wanting to talk about it and wanting to pretend it never came up. Remember, though....you are paying her, and she is there to help YOU. Ask the questions you need to ask....you deserve the right kind of help, and if she can't give it to you, then you need to find a T who can. She might be the perfect T for you to work with, but you won't know until you ask

[Sannah]

I can see a T talking about the countertransference AFTER he has resolved it in supervision but not talking about it before! EM's T is just sharing simple feelings which are not confusing. Luce's T is sharing her confusion!

[Rapunzel]

There are not really hard and fast rules about what therapists can talk about to their clients, so much as the guideline that the focus is the client, and whatever countertransference or personal disclosure the therapist shares should be for a purpose that is designed to help the client. It can be helpful to the client that the T is willing to be honest and open about the T's philosophy or understanding of the problem (or not, depending on the client's needs). It could also be useful for a client to understand that interaction with them can tend to be confusing, and then to explore why people, not only the T, might be feeling confused in some interactions. Countertransference can be useful because most likely the T is not the only person who reacts to the client that way, or because it can lead to insights that might help the client to understand himself or herself or the problem that is to be treated, etc.

[Rapunzel]

Luce, I was also going to say, if you can't see how what your T is talking about could help you, it is fine to ask what T hopes for you to get out of that discussion, disclosure, etc.

[MissCharlotte]

((Luce)),

Whenever T says something I don't understand I ask him to explain until I do understand it. Countertransference is a normal occurrence. My T has said on occasion that he is feeling "dreamy" or "fuzzy" and he can't connect with me. Then we talk about what I am feeling or what is going on in my head. I don't think there is anything wrong with this kind of sharing. But I do think you should ask her what she means by her statements because they are causing you to worry, and you shouldn't have to worry! .

whether she adheres to the trauma model or the sociocultural model

What are these? I didn't know there were two models.

schizophrenia is not genetic, and is triggered by environmental factor

First of all I don't think she is right. She may be referring to the recently known environmental triggers (like marijuana use) but as far as I know they do not rule out the genetic predisposition. Hmmmm, and what do they have to do with DID?

Maybe she didn't understand what you were saying. It sounds like a misattuned session. Maybe you can take it more slowly next time and focus on just the most important aspect.

What I am interpreting from her is that she is not comfortable with me / thinks I am lying ??

Why would she think this? It sounds like a projection. But I think your are right about her struggling to connect.

Ugh. Therapy is so hard sometimes. I hope you go back and persist. It takes a lot of courage to do what you are doing!

((((((((Luce)))))))

[Luce]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I find other's perspectives really helpful when I am so confused!

Earthmama, you wrote: Maybe they are just very attuned to us? I don't think my T is attuned to me yet, but I do think she is trying to be. So, it is helpful for me to think about this in those terms... to try and understand what she was saying and how it can help her and me to forge a stronger connection.

Rapunzel, thank you for this: There are not really hard and fast rules about what therapists can talk about to their clients, so much as the guideline that the focus is the client, and whatever countertransference or personal disclosure the therapist shares should be for a purpose that is designed to help the client. I don't think my T meant anything harmful - I do think she was trying to understand our relationship better, and disclosed her thoughts to try and help that. I was kinda freaking out that her disclosure may have been a definite no-no type of thing, so I am very glad to hear it isn't.

MissCharlotte, the trauma model of DID tells us that trauma is the root cause of the dissociation, whereas believers of the sociocultural model subscribe to the theory that DID is a therapist / culturally induced phenomenon (what they are saying really is that is isn't 'real'). Sadly, where I live, most Ts subscribe to the latter model.
I also didn't trust what she said about schizophrenia, and I am still very confused as to why she would discuss that in response to a question about DID. Is her understanding of DID so little that she thinks it *is* schizophrenia??? Scary thought.

You are right that my fear of her seeing me as a liar is a projection of mine. I was able to see that connection last night. When I was a child I was in foster care for some time after I disclosed some of the abuse to a teacher, but I was manipulated into saying I had lied (by my abusers, who still had contact and access to me), then returned home where the abuse continued for many more years.
So yes - my fear of being seen as a liar is huge and connected to a vast well of hopelessness and powerlessness. I have a lot of transference issues around that.

I know I need to discuss DID with my T, once and for all. I think perhaps the 'unreal' thing from her might come from my own presentation - which is emotionless, disconnected, and somewhat 'clinical'. I think if *I* were listening to someone describe the abuse in the way I have described some of mine to her I would feel unreal about it, too.
I am too scared to show her the alts in case she rejects them (doesn't believe in the trauma model and therefore thinks I am 'lying'), and yet when I hide the alts (and their emotion etc) from her she feels that I am not being real (which I suppose I am not).

My thoughts today are: I need to talk with her about DID. We need to start showing her more of who we are.
So so so scary.

[Hunny]

((((((( Luce ))))))))))

Hope you take some reading, web and books, to her as suggested last evening. Perhaps a help.

Invest in you by going forward where safe to.

Ice
(sorry my little emoticons aren't working)

[Luce]

Thanks, Ice. I've been researching some links for her to read. I have no idea how she feels about email contact between sessions, but I think I will email some info to her before my next appointment. If she gets around to reading them we might have a point from which to start talking about it.

[Rapunzel]

Luce, you are off to a good start. You are taking an open-minded approach, and willing to talk about what you need to, and ask questions. It can take some time to establish connection and trust. If you keep up what you are doing, you'll get there.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Luce

She also asked if I felt it were possible to develop a connection with her, or if I thought I would be able to with someone else.

I would find this offputting and it might even make me feel hopeless, inadequate.

I think I have developed the beginnings of a connection

That is great. Were you able to share that with her?

I know I don't trust much ( at all, really) and that what feels 'comfortable' for *me* likely feels like an aloof awkwardness to others... but it's kind of as much as I can give right now.

I think the T needs to be able to meet you where you are at right now.

...I do not know her thoughts on DID... whether she adheres to the trauma model or the sociocultural model (therapy induced)... and I (we) am afraid to show those parts or talk about them because we fear her rejection ... and she replied with this speil about how recent research has shown that schizophrenia is not genetic, and is triggered by environmental factors, blah blah blah, and "does that answer your question?"

She doesn't know that DID and schizophrenia are not the same? Scary. Also, schizophrenia has both genetic and environmental components. I think a good question to her would be, "If is true that you believe DID and schizophrenia are the same thing?" If she said yes, it would seem to suggest she doesn't know the basics of psychology.

Rapunzel, I agree with all your wrote on countertransference. I have never heard of any sort of "rule of therapy" that says discussing countertransference in session is not permissible. My T has done it a number of times, and it was very helpful. He will "own up to" having some countertransference, and will say something about it right on the spot. It helps me to see him struggle a bit and own his feelings. It shows he is human, an active participant in therapy, is engaged with me so much that he is feeling his own stuff, and that he is not an immovable log sitting there on the couch opposite me. Luce, I'm not sure what your T shared is quite in the same category but it bears more discussion, I think, if it left you feeling confused. My T has told me that he can really let himself listen to me by listening to himself deeply and what comes up for him in response to me. It tells him a lot about me, which perhaps seems counterintuitive, but if it helps him understand me and my relationships, then great.

I am too scared to show her the alts in case she rejects them (doesn't believe in the trauma model and therefore thinks I am 'lying'), and yet when I hide the alts (and their emotion etc) from her she feels that I am not being real (which I suppose I am not).

I think this is very insightful. It may be very confusing to her to be having this reaction to the hidden alts (feeling you are not being real) when perhaps she doesn't even believe in alts (subscribes to the sociocultural model). This would really present a conflict for her. I do think if this is the case, supervision would be a good idea. I think it would be great if you could share the interpretation you made with her.