Helping a friend - is this HPD or something else?

I really hope that someone in this forum can help me with a problem that has been tearing at me for over a year now. This involves a person who may have HPD (some of the criteria listed fit, but I'd like to be sure), but I also have to describe my relationship with her to put it into perspective, hence my posting in this section. Maybe my description of her, her behaviors, and our relationship will help someone tell me what is going on with her. My goal is to coax her (or find someone who can coax her) into therapy. I simply don't know how to approach her, especially considering the fact that she seems to completely hate me now. BTW, I have to warn any reader that this post is pretty long.
I'll begin by telling about myself, and from hereon, I'll refer to myself as "Kevin." I am now 47 and have been married for 13 years. My relationship with my wife has been severely strained for the vast majority of these years. I will not go into too much detail about what caused the rift because that would really require a separate post, but my psychologist has told me she has definite anger and control issues. She has been resistant and hostile to my previous attempts to get us into counseling (ever since the time our first son was an infant), so a divorce is very likely imminent.
The woman I'm trying to help, whom I'll call Marcie, is currently 42, twice-divorced. She is extremely pretty, and people are astonished to find out her age. Needless to say, she gets a LOT of attention from the men at our facility. Marcie lives alone, and she has an adult daughter and a grand-daughter. She is an impressionistic speaker, and has developed a reputation for "going from man to man." She is a very reckless driver (a friend of hers says,"like a bat out of hell"), and she suffers from frequent "chest pains" that sound very much to me like anxiety attacks. It's hard for me to know whether she has many friends. I think she remains rather withdrawn, although over the last year, she seems to have become less talkative. It's hard to say, though, since I now stay away from her work area whenever possible. Marcie seems to be an enthusiastic reader of romance novels, and a woman, with whom Marcie exchanges books, "Tina," says that Marcie is especially fond of a subgenre of romance in which a woman gets involved in situations that involve some sort of sexual or romantic submission (maybe this subgenre is called dominant/submissive or something similar? Maybe someone can help me out with this...). Tina says that Marcie may be looking for an "alpha-type" man who fits the mold of the characters in these books, someone to whom she can be submissive. Also, she is extremely insecure about her weight and her appearance, and she had asked me about several types of diet pills, and even procedures like lipo. Friends say she is always asking if her clothes looks ok or she is too fat. Also, I have been told by both Erica and Joan that she seems to exaggerate any illness or slight affliction she has. Managers actually had to talk to her about her frequent practice of leaving work to go to the hospital for various things.
She is asthmatic, and she was taking prednisone (also called prednisolone or prelone) for her condition (this was before we met). She told me that she had read about the side effects of this medicine (I really think that she was mainly alarmed about the weight gain from this steroid, because she mentioned this point often) and decided to completely stop taking it - cold turkey. I have an asthmatic son, and I know that it cannot be stopped in that manner after being taken long-term without some pretty serious side-effects. She apparently passed out at the job and had to be taken to the hospital, but she had to have already known that the medicine has to be tapered off, because I think that's one of the first things the doctor talks about to anyone being prescribed this...
In late spring of 2007, our office was experiencing a shortage of workers due to vacations, reassignments, and a few other situations, so the employees in my unit (I work on the first floor) began to frequently come up to an automation unit, complete with rows of processing machines, on the third floor, where Marcie works. I had worked with her a couple of times, but it was very uneventful. I am a quiet, withdrawn person (my therapist says I am somewhat avoidant in personality type, maybe a by-product of my childhood, growing up with a paranoid-schizophrenic father...), so my times working with her were strictly business, although not unpleasant. Almost no words passed between us. On June 6th, 2007, though, Marcie developed an interest in talking to me. She never came over to me at first, but she kept bringing me up to another worker whom I had a casual acquaintance, whom I'll call Joan. Joan approached me, pointed at Marcie, and exclaimed,"She wants you!" (Joan was never much for subtlety). Soon after, Marcie came up to me and asked, "Is it true that the French are great lovers?" (Joan would ask me about my heritage when we conversed, and I told her that my father's family was mostly french). After that somewhat unusual introduction, we talked at some length and she seemed a pretty nice person. It turned out to be her birthday, and I wished her a happy birthday (she would later call me her birthday present). She gave me her phone number, but I didn't call her at first. We saw each other at work and I let her know that I was married. She said, "I can handle that," but I told her that she would be wasting her time with me when someone younger, more handsome and more available would certainly come along for her. Her response to that was to tell me about her "last boyfriend," (I'll call him Arnold, and his name will turn up again later) whom she said she had been with for 5 years and was married with children, too. Apparently, this Arnold, a tractor driver at our job, befriended her after her second divorce and was "a shoulder to cry on" while she recovered from this divorce. She then told me that she would be with me for as long as I wanted her. She would actually say this to me often during most of our time together.
As I got to know her more, she had some things that were a little odd: she was kind of clingy and insecure, often expressing worry that "rumors" at the job would cause her to "lose" me. During our first several months knowing each other she was sending up to 10(!) e-mails a day, despite the fact that we spent our lunches and breaks together and I was coming over to her place almost every day, but she seemed such a nice person that I began really feeling a warmth for her. We seemed to have quite a bit in common: she told me of her abusive father who was relentlessly cruel. She said he would try to walk in on her when she was in the bathroom showering, among other unpleasantness towards her, her mother, and her brother, and he eventually left the family to return to Puerto Rico. The mother, who seems to have been a doormat, basically arranged a marriage between Marcie and a man 11 years her elder when Marcie was maybe 15 or 16 (she believed that her mother and this man may have slept together), and then eventually left a pregnant Marcie to fend for herself while the mother left for Puerto Rico, presumably to look for the father (I know that there is something seriously lacking in this telling, but this is kind of how it was told to me - I assume that the older brother had left home before this, and there is no real explanation of other things: she said that she was left in a house with no lights or heat, and there were times she didn't even eat, but how was she able to stay in that apartment, dark though it was? and where was the husband during this? I never got answers to that, but there are holes in other stories about her past, as well, and Joan has told me that Marcie paints herself as a victim for sympathy). Because of my upbringing, I could certainly empathize. We also shared a love of computing. My major in college was computer science, and I have a great deal of experience with computer-related issues, while Her interest was far more casual, but certainly enthusiastic. We seemed to like many of the same kinds of music (she had more of a liking for salsa/meringue/house, though). We were even both lefties! I developed quite an affection for her, and I enjoyed being in her company immensely - she seemed to be just genuinely a really nice person, which made me protective of her feelings. I would have never said or done anything to her to make her unhappy or hurt her. I was coming to love her dearly...
For a year we went on, and she had become very special to me. We were together a great deal of the time, and I thought that she genuinely liked being with me. I felt that once my sons were mature enough to emotionally deal with a divorce between me and their mother ( I wanted them to both be out of elem school, within 2-3 years, much less time than she says she had been with Arnold), Marcie and I would have a chance to make a long-term relationship (I shudder to think about being in my late 40's and "looking" again).
Marcie was always in a state of dismay about body issues, asking me about various pills and even asking about lipo. I constantly told her that she was very beautiful where she was (which was the truth. Even though she was 5'4," 170#, she carried her weight very well and she was very curvaceous), but she was heavier than she needed to be. I wanted it to be her idea, though, so she wouldn't accuse me of suggesting she was fat (women - so complicated *chuckle*). After the discussion about lipo, though, I agreed to help her with an exercise plan as long as she stopped trying to look into these quick fixes that are potentially dangerous. We would go to the park and do rope jumping, tennis, and other things to get her more active. After I felt her metabolism had increased, then we could move on gradually to heavier stuff, but these thing must be eased into, especially at our ages, or there could be strains, tears, tendinitis... she actually started to lose a little weight and her body shape began to change a little, but it was difficult because of her intermittent illnesses. Since she is an asthmatic, it's better to be safe than sorry. Marcie lost patience with my way, though, and went to a doctor to get phentermine. Although her body mass index was borderline at best (I think a bmi over 30 is required), she was not only able to get phentermine prescribed to her, but the 37.5mg is the highest dosage available. With her "heart pains" (all while I've known her, she has had pretty frequent - as in several times a week, possibly daily - pains that start in her chest and make it very hard for her to breathe. She has been seen over and over by various doctors, and she eventually went to a specialist who told her he could find nothing wrong, and that he believed the pains to be anxiety-based. He told her to take a small aspirin daily just in case, and he may have suggested she seek counseling, but she didn't mention that) and her emotional issues (she has even called herself a "broken person" - maybe she didn't tell him?) I can only speculate as to how she was able to pull it off.
She began taking this medicine in late May/early June, and I noticed changes about her almost immediately. Phentermine is basically speed. I can recognize when someone is using it (my father was, among other things, on speed for a while), so when she began to show the signs, I was alarmed, but she said she was being supervised, so I butted out and stayed supportive.
Even as late as Mother's Day, I thought our relationship was perfectly stable. She seemed genuinely touched by the card and gift I brought her, and she said she was lucky to have someone like me...
About a week or so before her birthday in 2008, I came over to visit her, and something was noticeably different. She was not mean to me or anything, but she didn't seem to be... there, really. When we entered her living room, she sat on a different couch and I had to kind of coax her to sit next to me. I thought she may have been merely tired, as she had just started taking the phentermine. Soon afterwards, she went to hang out with her friends for a few days. On June 6th, 2008, though, I called her to find out what she wanted to do for her birthday and was treated to a heart-wrenching rejection. When I called her, she said she had something to tell me. She claimed that she didn't "feel intimate towards" me anymore. She went on to tell me that I had said cruel things to her that made her "die inside, little by little." This was a complete shock to me, as I promise to you that during the entire time I was with her, she was a joy to me and we never had cross words, we never raised our voices to one another, and I always tried to be nothing but respectful and understanding with her. We had made an agreement to always be up-front with each other about things that might cause problems, and I had kept my end of the bargain (it was easy, though, because I never had cause to complain). When I asked her to tell me what I might have said, she began raising her voice in anger and telling me about how I told her that my kids came first (this is an out-of-context reference to a talk I had with her fairly early in our relationship. I was so absorbed with her that I was spending quite a bit of time at her place, and I was late to pick up my sons from school a couple of times. That was very unfair to my sons, so I talked to her about my need to be more prompt in leaving her house [Marcie would never just say "don't leave," but I definitely realized that whenever I was on my way out the door, she would do a variety of things to try to keep me there just a little longer...]. I said that I wished I could stay a lot longer, but they're just kids - they have to come first). Also, she angrily said that I told her that I had "other things" I needed to do. In a way, I did say that. The "things " I told her I had to do were:
1. go to physical rehab for my back, which I had injured in April '08; and
2. coach my older son's little league baseball team.
I couldn't understand why she was so angry about these things, but I didn't argue with her, I just continued to listen. She also said that "for a year, it's been Kevin, Kevin, Kevin" and she stated that she was putting aside dates with her friends and daughter to be with me. I don't know whether that's true, but a co-worker, "Julie," who used to talk to Marcie often before Julie left to open her own business, says that Marcie would sometimes tell Julie she would wait at home "just in case I called by," despite the fact that she has a cell phone and... well, never mind. If I had known that she was skipping meetings with her friends and daughter to be with me, I would certainly have talked to her about it. I have never tried to keep a woman from things that make her happy, and as I recall, she WOULD meet with her friends, while her daughter visited fairly regularly. In addition, she told me that I would say things to her that made her think,"he must think I'm a ****ing fool." The truth is, whatever I said to Marcie, it was always true to the best of my knowledge. I NEVER lied to her about anything because I thought that I didn't need to; I thought she was in my corner always. I made her my support system during our time together because of the comfort I felt with her. I have told her more about myself and my doings than I have told my own mother (who is kind of a blabbermouth, God love her)! She mentioned that she was tired of trying to find love, and though she's dated single and married men, it always ends the same - she never feels that she's getting out of it what she puts in. "from now on, maybe I'll have a fling every once in a while, but no more" romantic involvements. She also said that there were a couple of men who she was letting come to visit her...
This was absolutely devastating to me. For weeks, I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat (I lost over 20 lb!) and I had a pain in the chest that just didn't seem to go away.
The next few weeks after our breakup were very confusing for me. I had to watch Marcie at work, so speeded up at first that her speech was sometimes barely comprehensible. She would tell about how she would go straight home and crash for most of the day. She complained of a "hot flash" once when I was working in an area adjacent to hers. And I would see her staying after work hanging around (Marcie NEVER does overtime, so I wondered what was up. She said she was staying over to help in certain areas, but I discovered that to be a lie). A lot of her behavior was inconsistent. When I first saw her at work after our phone conversation, she was miffed that I did not call her by one of the pet names I had for her. She also came up to me a couple of times and slid her hand up my shirt sleeve to stroke my arm, but a few days later, I asked her for a hug. The "hug" was a weak, one-armed hug, and I asked if I could get one from BOTH arms. She replied that this was the way she always hugged (a HUGE lie. When we were an item, sometimes she would almost tackle me with a two-armed hug!). Also, my elder son was taking summer classes at a high school near Marcie, so I asked he if she would come out and just play some tennis with me while I waited. She told me that she would need to come home and rest, but that she would certainly come out. She never showed up, nor did she call my cell phone. I saw her at work that night and expressed my disappointment that she didn't show. "Aww, babe, I waited up at the park and you never showed." I was only mildly discouraged, not really upset at all, and I expected her to, as even casual friends do, make some mild apology for missing. Her response, though, was to mildly scrunch her face and shrug. "So what?" was written all over her gesture. I actually did get a little miffed then and I said something like,"That's not even right, Marcie," or "That's not cool, Marcie," to which she responded by giggling and saying, "you're so cute" (this is obviously a complete invalidation of my feelings, but does this point towards lack of empathy, as well?)
During the period after the breakup, I really tried to work on Marcie to reconcile whatever problem she had with me and our relationship. We had a conversation during which she told me that I needed "someone who deserves (me)." My response was,"I thought I had." Later, she told me about feeling like I made statements (like the one about the kids coming first and the one about having things to do) to "put her in her place." I told her that, for example, as adults, we have to make sure kids always come first. She replied that she knew that, and she didn't need me to say it. She kept saying ,"it was just the way it was done." Also, she claimed that no matter what, she always felt like "the other woman." Please keep this statement in mind for later reference.
I continued to call her on the phone and I still gave Marcie her birthday present, although I changed the gift: originally I had bought her a gorgeous red bustier (I hadn't found the silk straps she had recently been suggesting that I find, but that would have been part of the package, as well. It now seemed an improper gift), but I returned it and bought her a set of marble vases, which she accepted with a weird kind of dispassionate appraisal: "...hmmm, it matches my bedroom set, it's very practical, it's nice and weighty,..."
In July, I transcribed a piece of music into a piano version for her. She always used to gush about how lovely this particular piece of music was, so, being a former studio musician, I charted the chords and created a piano transcription that I played for her over the phone. It seemed to please her greatly, so I re-wrote my transcription so that it would be nicer for display and I took it over to her. She accepted with a cool, "what-do-I-do-with-this?" attitude. As I continued to talk to her and send occasional poetry and other little bits, she eventually asked me to meet her for ice cream. She took samples of my banana split and prompted me to take licks of her cone, and I felt that there may have been a chance for me, after all. I continued to come around to her work area to talk and offer her occasional food, because I was worried about the scant food she was bringing to work with her. When taking pills like phentermine that accelerate the system, enough food has to be taken in so that a person's system has enough energy to be accelerated. Though it seems paradoxical, one must put in energy if one wishes to burn energy. But she was barely bringing anything with her, so I would offer her some of mine. She would laughingly say that when we were together, she used to feed me, but now, I was suddenly feeding her. Although I didn't respond, it was somewhat insulting and I think she may have intended for it to be a slap at me. The truth is, though, that I did feed her, though not as often as she fed me. I certainly did some cooking at her place, making blueberry pancakes for her (from scratch!), among other things, and showing her how to cook scrambled eggs without them becoming dry. I eventually got her to agree to come out with me on Labor Day, since we were both to be off on that night. Our "date" never came to pass, though, because I did something to cause her to completely hate me.
Marcie's behavior changed so radically to me that I was at a total loss to figure it out. Was this the same woman who had a folder into which she would place a printout of every e-mail she would get from me (sounds childish, but it seemed kinda cute)? I racked my brain for something that would have caused her to change so radically between Mother's Day and June 6th. Finally, The only thing I could think of was that I needed to check the side-effects of this phentermine. There were some pretty intense side-effects listed as being possible with normal dosages: change in libido, irritability, and other things. I figured at the time that if she were under a doctor's care, I would wait out the side-effects and hope for the best. in the later part of July, 2008, though, I was told something about Marcie that was truly alarming to me. I was talking to Marcie's co-worker/friend, whom I'll call Erica. Erica and I have been friends since before I knew Marcie and we talk all the time. This day, though, Erica was telling me about Marcie and her "energy pills." We all work the "third shift," from 11p to 730 am. Sometime during the later part of the work night, Erica told me, Marcie would take something she laughingly called her "energy pill" and she would get a burst of energy. This was a major worry for me because I had seen Marcie take her phentermine before, and she always took it well before her shift started (as her doctor recommended) in order to prevent sleeping problems in the morning when she got home. If she were taking pills at night, this raised the definite possibility that she was doubling up on her pills. As risky as phentermine is when taken properly, it is extremely , life-threateningly dangerous to abuse it! I decided to try to talk to Marcie about this (I later came to realize that, although Erica wasn't overly dramatic in her telling of Marcie's activities, she was very concerned about them, and was hoping I could help. Why else would she bother to mention something like that?) When I set about the task of getting Marcie's time, though, she was making herself as unavailable as she could be. I went to her work area and asked if we could meet and talk, either during lunch or during her break time, to which she would respond that she didn't know when she'd be taking her break/lunch. She would not return my phone calls, and I didn't want to make it an e-mail discussion, so I was stumped. I later found that Marcie was avoiding me for a couple of reasons, at least. She knew when she was taking her breaks, but she was taking that time to meet someone else, and she was trying to keep that a secret. Also, she may have been afraid that this person she was seeing was the reason I was trying to meet with her. At the time I was trying to catch up to Marcie, though, I had no clue about these things, because I wasn't going around snooping on her.
I was becoming a nervous wreck - the loss of Marcie and the subsequent worry about her fate was making me feel desperate. I had no one whom I could turn to and ask to talk to Marcie. I then made a decision that I knew would make her extremely mad, but I was feeling that every moment may be precious as far as prevent harm from coming to her. As I said, Marcie has an adult daughter (about 22), and I was able to find her e-mail address on an e-mail that was sent to me and a group of other people. I was hoping to find the address of one of her friends, at least, but the daughter is the only one I knew, so I wrote to her. I tried to not give away Erica's name, because I didn't want to cause trouble for anyone else, but I explained about what had been seen by this employee, why this thing that was seen was alarming, and my hope that it was just a mistake. Even though I felt I was crossing some sort of line (I would not want this done to me, but I would not be evading someone who wanted to talk with me, either), I felt that I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror if she came to serious harm and I knew about it but failed to speak out. I never got a response back from her daughter, but she must have had some sort of discussion about it. I kept calling Marcie, who eventually answered the phone on July 27th and spoke to me. From the tone of her voice, I knew that she had found out about the e-mail. Before, if we spoke on the phone, she was kind of noncommital in her approach, but on this occasion, she was as cold as ice. She would never say anything about the e-mail, but her entire being was coldly hostile. I did finally get a chance to ask her in person (kind of) about what had been said by Erica, but I had to couch it in order to paint Erica as someone who said this thing inadvertently without understanding the importance of what she saw. Her story was that the reference to "energy pills" was just a catchphrase that the two of them used to refer to a
second wind or some sort of renewal of energy after a rest (just to double-check, I went back to Erica, who confirmed that taking an energy pill meant just that, putting a pill in one's mouth and swallowing. She also said that she and Marcie have never used such a term between themselves for any purpose. In addition, Erica stated that Marcie was not just seen once or twice doing this, but steadily from sometime in early June to possibly as late as early August. This suggests that Marcie either stopped doubling her dosage or stopped doing it where she could be seen. Erica didn't even know that Marcie was taking diet pills, so her time line definitely has the ring of truth). I kept waiting to see whether she would mention the e-mail, but she never said a word about it. I eventually asked her whether I had done or said anything to anger her, since I told her that she seemed angry. This would have been another opening for her to vent her anger at me, but instead, she told me she wasn't mad at me, she had just "lost interest in (me)." I had left a rose on her windshield after work the day before and I asked whether she had found a place for it. She replied that her "company" saw it on the windshield and brought it to her. She also told me that it had died, and mentioned how fragile these flowers are (an attempt to upset me? Commercial grade roses do not die in one day). She also asked that I not come to speak to her anymore, since she didn't "want people to think things that weren't really happening." Although she was continually mean-spirited and hostile during our talk, we managed to speak about an hour...
On September 7th, Marcie finally decided to mention the e-mail to her daughter. She sent me an extremely angry e-mail claiming she had waited for days for me to "fess up," and claiming that I
had raided her computer somehow to get her e-mail contacts. When she described the things I supposedly said to her daughter in my e-mail were things that I had not even suggested, including some sort of mention of changes in behavior. Maybe I'm wrong, but could this have been something the daughter had notice independently and decided to mention when she asked about this situation? She said that my letter had made her sound like "a street drug user" and
"your apologies, or other sayings I'm human, I make mistakes, I'm concerned or care about a friend, will not be accepted. You're old enough to think before you act." As angry as the letter is,
I expected as much. I did write a response, though, just to correct some incorrect assumptions about what was done, seen and said by me. After stating that I would leave her alone forever if she would just read the whole letter, I basically told her how worried I had become for her safety, and I outlined all the behavior and problems, like "hot flashes," that I had seen personally, but never mentioned, since she said she was under a doctor's supervision. I explained how I got her daughter's e-mail address and that I had no intention of contacting any other people (she seemed to be concerned that I had contacted a bunch of her friends, but wouldn't her friends have told her right away about me attempting to contact them?) In her angry post to me, she said that something must be wrong with me and that I need mental help, although she didn't know that I had started seeing a psychologist when I finally couldn't
stand the pain of being without her coupled with my empty non-relationship with my wife, combined with issues concerning my father (who keeps escaping the institutions we find for him) and some stress concerning my teenage son and his hormonal outbursts. I took the opportunity to use her statement as a springboard into some of the issues that cause her distress.
I gave her the phone number of the EAP counselor at our job and tried to convince her that seeking out a professional when issues are traumatic or upsetting is a very normal thing to do. I
assured her that everything that I said was the truth (and it was), and declared my conscience clear. I declared the matter over in my mind and was convinced that I would never have any contact
with Marcie again. She sent me another letter, though, which was far less hostile, denying any of the behaviors I had seen, but also trying to offer up explanations for them. She tries to convince
me that my mind "runs off far from reality" and "No, I'm not angry, or hate you in anyway. I choose to keep my distance from many... So, read this letter as a long conversation and leave it at that. I'm through in terms of trying to correct your thinking. I do hope you pulled yourself together, attend to your issues and not mine.
I wish you well...
Your reply is not necessary."
Fool that I am, I tried to take her at her word and see whether she was still angry. I sent her a couple of minor e-mails over the next couple of weeks. Nothing chummy or anything, but no response was given, so I decided it would be best to completely leave her alone so that I could concentrate on my therapy and on getting over her.
Months later, maybe mid-October, I had to retrieve my father from jail (it's a long story...) and the prison is less than three blocks from Marcie's place. I thought about her and decided to call her. I take her at her word that her father was excessively cruel, so I needed to talk with someone who shared this common experience. She answered the phone and told me that she had company but I could come talk to her on the machine in her area. I came over and waited to talk to her.
Even though she knew that I was coming to talk to her and she agreed to the meeting, she was initially very rude, brushing past me with a peremptory "excuse me" on her way to another part of the machine. Since I was actually there for a purpose, I followed her and proposed a question: what would you do if you were presented with new information about your father and his behaviors during your childhood? Information that suggested that at least some of his actions were caused by a force he couldn't stand against instead of malice or malevolence? The answer to this question is something I wrestle with now that I know that my father was being influenced by his schizophrenia since my infancy. All those years of thinking of my father as sadistic and hostile have to be balanced against this other growing evidence of long-term mental infirmity.
I think she expected my visit to be for some other purpose, because she became less closed, but her response seemed somewhat callous. Maybe it was somehow a reference to the situation between us? She replied that her opinion of her father would not be changed by any new information because he did what he did, no matter what the cause. Believe it or not, we had a fairly pleasant few things that we discussed after that: I asked her about her favorite show,
"Dancing with the Stars," and asked her about the "paso doble." After I left the machine, I didn't try to use that as leverage to return to her work area, but I did start trying for a while to wave or say hello in passing. Some days she would say hello in a very friendly way, but I might be near her area working or passing through, and I would catch her stealing occasional angry-looking glances at me (maybe I'm just interpreting them as "angry" glances?)
Shortly after that, I found out why she had suddenly been staying at work after our breakup, and who her "company" was. I saw Marcie wandering over to an area full of 6" tall rolling mail containers, but she was not looking at or into them. She was looking between them, as though searching for someone. I knew an employee who worked in that area and asked whom she might be looking for in that area. Apparently, she had been seeing a tractor driver, whom I'll call Denis, since sometime in June at least, and possibly a bit before. The puzzler, though, is that Denis is married with children, as well! All the talk about feeling like "the other woman" must have been garbage?
As it turns out, people who know Marcie's whole story have been letting me know about her. The woman who first introduced me to her, Joan, tells me that Marcie greatly craves attention from men and is very insecure about herself, often asking her friends about her weight and her clothing. Joan's husband dislikes Marcie due to her apparent inappropriate flirtatiousness with him. Joan has also complained that Marcie has come to visit her home, but has at times tried to hang with her husband. She has also been known to have arguments with men at her machine, and she becomes louder when someone else is present or passes by. She has been treated very badly by men, but does not stay with nice men for long. She has had one boyfriend who was a gambler, and he would have her take him to the river boat casino. While he went in and gambled, she was left in the car to wait for his return. Eventually, they was running late for work while he was gambling and she left him there. When supervisors questioned him on his late return to work, he put the blame on Marcie for leaving him behind at the casino. Another boyfriend, the aforementioned Arnold, was a complete jerk as well. He lied to Marcie when he met her, telling her that he was divorced in order to have her sexually. Incredibly, she remained with him for a pretty long time, despite him treating her with a great deal of disrespect. He would brag to fellow workers about the sexual favors she was providing him with. It apparently bothered her that would not remove his wedding ring when they were together, but he would tell her,"the ring stays on!" They apparently also had many discussion about him leaving his wife to be with her, and his response to these questions was basically that he would never leave his wife because he had no intention of paying for child support.
Another boyfriend, a mechanic whom I'll call Smithe, who seems to be a nice enough guy, was affianced when Marcie met him, but she flirted with him until he dropped his fiancé to be with her. She claimed to Joan that she never intended for that to happen, but she still wound up dating him, eventually moving in with him and planning for marriage. He bought her a ring (wedding ring? engagement ring? I don't remember) and she flipped when she found out that he had bought it at a pawn shop. Their relationship went down in flames, but some time after this breakup, she suddenly tried to start speaking to him again. His reaction to her was less than pleasant, apparently. Her second husband also was married when he met Marcie, and he dropped his wife like hot rock to be with her. She eventually left him after some very bad things were found to be happening between the second husband and her daughter. Upon discovering her plans to leave, Marcie once claimed to me that he cleared out her bank accounts and left her broke. She eventually had to file for bankruptcy.

After the conversation in which I asked about her father, I decided to avoid as much contact with Marcie as possible, but on New Years Eve, I decided to go over and wish her season's greetings. I also wanted to, in person, take responsibility for my actions. I had previously only sent a letter). Erica was working on the same machine as Marcie, so I spoke to Erica first. We chatted a bit, and I asked,"How's my former friend? Do you think I should wish her happy new year?" I could tell that erica didn't want me to approach her (I've been told that a few of the women who know Marcie in that area were unhappy with her for going after me because they felt that I was such a nice guy), but I wanted to take the opportunity to get something off of my chest. I came up to her and took her hand, wishing her a happy new year. I went on to tell her that I was hoping that there would not remain any bad blood between us for the new year. She seemed kind of evasive, but not unfriendly. I told her about how what I did seemed like the right thing to do but, even though I had no bad intent, it wound up being a bad, hurtful thing to do, and only caused her to feel embarrassed and betrayed. I finished by saying that although she may never trust or forgive me, it seemed right to come over and, face-to-face (instead of in a letter or e-mail), apologize for
hurting her. For most of the apology, she seemed to be evasive, looking around or near me, but almost never at me. When I said the part about making her feel embarrassed, she said in a calm voice, "I don't think about that anymore." However, when I said that I was sorry for hurting her, she seemed to actually look AT me for just a small bit. Her expression was hard to judge, but she said, again, after a short pause, "Oh, I don't think about that anymore."
I made no attempt to return to her machine for any more conversation, but in February, my eldest son had to take a high school exam near Marcie's place. His test was going to take four hours, so I was stuck for time. I stopped at a McDonald's not far from Marcie's place, and tried to kill some time. Eventually, I decided to take a chance and see if Marcie would just come and sit with me for a while. Needless to say, this did not happen. As soon as she recognized my voice, hers turned to ice. I explained that I was in the neighborhood waiting for my son to take his test, and
was wondering if it wouldn't be too much trouble for her to stop by and just sit with me for a little while. She declined, saying that she had somewhere to go. After leaving the McDonald's, I was stricken by the urge to snoop. I passed by her place and, indeed, she was gone... Since then, we have not spoken , nodded, nor waved to each other, and despite a few close calls, I have not had to work on the same machine as Marcie.
I couldn't tell you whether she is happy with this new man of hers. She has been with him for well over a year now (my best friend, who also works on the third floor, says that they have been hanging together since sometime in June, although he can't remember what part of June), and I try very hard to stay away from places I might meet her, but I still occasionally see her or the two of them. For a while, he would pick her up at her home and they would come to work together, but recently, Marcie's hours were cut, so they have to come to work in separate cars; when I see them together, though, they rarely look like they're enjoying one another's company. She usually looks flustered or somewhat harried or distressed, although he usually seems to look satisfied, or at least not
frustrated or angry. I have to add, though, that I AM still envious of his being with her, so maybe I'm not impartial on this. I recently saw them two of them walking together, and she was at least smiling. When I see her alone, she tries to pretend as though I don't exist and she clears her face of all expression (my therapist says she's "disgusted"). Not long ago, though, I saw an old friend whom I'll refer to as Nani, a woman who had transferred back onto our shift after a long stint on another shift. This is an older woman who has always been very nice to me, and is known around the post office as being a pretty nice person. Our relationship is strictly platonic. The first night that I saw her on the night shift after her return, I gave her a big hug and talked to her for a little while. Marcie or someone who knows Marcie saw this and some time later, Marcie came to this woman and tried to ask about me. Nani wasn't very specific, except to say that Marcie was hanging around asking how Nani and I knew each other and what kind of friends we were or something like that. Apparently, she was bothersome enough to Nani that she told Marcie to "get a life" - very unusual for Nani, who is very easygoing. If she's "disgusted" with me, why is she bringing me up in any way, especially coming to my friend(s)? I have almost completely avoided her for months now. I don't know whether Marcie has approached any of my other friends, but Joan predicted that Marcie would come up to women she might see me with and question them and she was right (Joan has also
predicted that one day Marcie would all of a sudden starts peaking to me again. we'll see). I just don't understand why, though. there's not much any of them can tell her that she doesn't probably already know.
I'm sure that some are wondering why I am posting here when I have a therapist. I have talked to my therapist about a lot. When I talk about the situation between me and my wife, he will tell me about her control and anger issues, but when I talk about Marcie, he will write copiously, sometimes saying,"this is a lot," although he has offered neither possible explanations nor professional opinion (sorry, but "she's disgusted" doesn't sound like a professional opinion to me). I am not sure whether to ask what he thinks may be going on with her, and I really don't know what he will think of my desire to help her. He seems to be pretty vague concerning issues surrounding Marcie and my relationship with her. Maybe he feels vagueness is necessary?
In finishing up this very LONG account, Marcie passed by the 3rd floor work area I was stationed at while she was on her way home, even though it was somewhat out of her way. She did not look in my direction as far as I could see, but there was a much easier path to the time clock (she was ending her work day, so she needed to punch her time card) than past me...
Joan has suggested to Marcie that she should seek therapy, and Marcie became somewhat defensive, saying, "Do you think I'm crazy?" It's possible that Marcie may have had previous negative experience with a court-appointed therapist. Marcie has claimed that her daughter, after Marcie's first divorce, wanted to live her father because she felt there would be less strict discipline there, so the daughter (who would have been between 8 and 10 years old at the time) and her father, the first husband, "made up lies" about Marcie that resulted in the first husband gaining custody of the daughter for a number of years. This story sounds, to me, oversimplified and disingenuous. I don't know a lot about child abuse investigations, but is it that easy to pull the wool over a DCFS evaluator's eyes?
I am really sorry for throwing so much out there, but I want the people who read this to get as accurate a picture of Marcie as I am capable of giving. Despite anything that I may feel was unfair or odd or unjustified about my situation with her, I still want to help her be happy, or at least stable. I'll probably always have some sort of feeling for her, no matter what. Even now, a charge goes through me when I see her, and I waste all kinds of time daily thinking about what could have been and remembering the good things about her. Now, I must ask: what can be done to set her on the right path? Is this HPD, or some other problem? Maybe she's just misunderstood?
A number of people I know have told me that sometimes people just have to hit bottom before they'll seek help (actually, a couple of friends said,"Let her drown"), but that just seems very callous to me. Would it be a good idea to send her, anonymously, a copy of the book I've seen discussed in these forums, "Emotional Vampires?" In her state of mind, would it be an incentive or a deterrent? Apparently, she has been missing a lot of time at work this year, so her anxiety must be terrible
to endure. She was supposed to have vacation time a few weeks ago, but she came to work, so it's likely she has no sick time or vacation time left...
As much info as I have given, I have actually left some things out. I could also have been lacking or unclear in some places. Please don't hesitate to ask for more info if it helps make things easier to evaluate.

IMO I would completely avoid her at all costs. I really can't tell you if she has some kind of a mental disorder. There is a possibility that she could be a drug addict. My honest opinion is that she uses men. She gets what she wants then turns around and leaves them. You also need to think about your kids. I would never have my kids around that type of person. If someone would have ever screamed or yelled at me because I had to go pick my kids up from school that would have ended it right there. Besides the fact that you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. I also think that your therapist is trying to get you to open up about the pain of your marriage first. They always say that you need to heal from the pain from an ended relationship before you can move on to the next relationship. There is a lot of single people out there why would you want to settle for her? All she would do is hurt you in the long run, and it would create so much conflict with your kids. You need to focus on your kids and you, not her. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but she does not love you, or care for you. Start dating other women who can treat you the way you need to be treated.

Illustr8r~

I have to agree with jerrymichele.
Kids are your priority. Anyone even remotely a threat to them should be avoided at all costs. Anytime you find yourself confronted by any possible ill behavoir regarding your kids, (especially by someone you're involved with), should be an immediate warning sign and should not only be taken seriously, but acted upon, as well.
For Marcie to even suggest to you her feelings of competing for your attention with your kids should be enough to detour you right there.
She has her own daughter, which should have been well enough experience for her to understand your position with your two children. Instead, she was compelled to insist upon displaying ill intentions by demanding to take presedence of your attention, anyway. Not exactly rational behavior.

I'm sorry that you have gone through this with Marcie. From what you've stated, Marcie has a history of repeated behavior for the 'seek and destroy' maneuver. I have to say, though, count your blessings that it is over, as it was a recipe for inevetable ending, anyway, (and be thankful that you got out of it before it had effected your kids in anyway).

It's hard to really specify if Marcie is suffering from any disorders, despite all the information you divulged. It's unfortunate that she has these issues, but I honestly feel that you should not concern yourself with her issues any longer. You have done everything you possibly could, (and then some), to help her and yet she still refused your assistance.

Granted, she has past issues, (don't we all?), but she is well into her adulthood and can change her own path IF she so chose. However, this is a lifestyle that she has chosen for herself and will continue to conduct until ONLY she is ready to change it regardless of what you, or anyone else attempts to do FOR her, (and you have done far more for her than what anyone else has). She has no intentions of changing, and if allowed, she would have sucked the life out of you in the process of her scheme.

Also, sounds as though she prefers the dysfuntional relationships to either justify her existing misery, &/or excuse herself from taking responsibility for her own needed change. Regardless, you are far too nice of a person to deserve that kind of treatment...let alone the fact that, if you had remained with her, the effects she had on you would have been transfered onto your kids, as well.

You must attend to your present issues with your marriage first. Endure the healing from that, then you can move on and focus on a healty relationship for all concerned. You deserve that...and your kids deserve that.

I must also say..that your post has to be THE longest I've read on this site to date...lol....(and here I thought that I sometimes wrote long posts). Yours was great!
You should receive a "super poster" title just for the dedication required ..lol.

I wish you and your children the best and that all works out for you.

Shangrala

Thank you both for your replies. I sincerely apologize for the length (!) of my first post, but I think I really needed to vent, because I just kept going on and on and on...

OMG....this was a long story, but very interesting....
Honesty, I think this lady has a serious problem and enjoys all the trouble she makes for guys....she's creating so much bad karma for herself....that's so sad what she's doing...going after guys who are married or engaged and then make them to break up with their love ones and then at the end she will leave them too....
I would suggest you to stay away from her as much as possible....why are you looking for headache? Isn't it any other woman out there? I know lots of women looking for a partner like you and you can make them happy instead of this woman who makes you and others misrable....
Why do you care even? She doens't need anybody's attention and care....She's not doing good to you or others...probably, somebody should tell her....
just stay far from her....and don't digg into her life or whatever she does, because she's an adualt and she doesn't need your help....
Your kids are more important than anybody else....I even think that she is the cause of you getting seperated from your wife? Isn't she? why don't you stay and try harder for your marriage for sake of kids? Is there any possiblities left in your marriage?

take care of yourself and stay away from her...she's an absolut poison and you don't need her!

with love
Marjan

I see two things coming into play here. I only have a second because im headed to bed and will make this later longer, but i read it and heres what I see:

-Marcie is the type of woman who has a traumatic past and is still locked in the "play the victim" mode. I am not a professional but she almost sounds borderline to me, I have borderline and the whole "I hate you dont leave me" or going from Hot to Cold like that can happen. I think that Marcie probably latches on to people because she desperately NEEDS that attention and caret to feel good about herself, to feel whole, and to feel like a woman.

-You seem like the type of man who desires "saving" the damsel in distress. Actually this happens in not just men but also in women. I dont know if its an actual personality disorder, just a quirk, an illness, or what. I have it to so I can relate. For me there is a great need to "fix" people or "change" them for the better. And that can get the best of a person.. You should only give help to the extent that you can healthily do so. That can be hard.. because its hard to detach from someone you care about, and I think you care about Marcie a great deal. The problem is if you continue when its actually detrimental(to either you, her, or the situation itself) its almost bound to have bad effects. She may not be ready, she may be too ill, she may be a drug addict, she may be simply too traumatized to take in the information you so desperately wish to give her. Heck maybe she just doesnt want to see it and is in denial.

We can't be everything to everyone. Thats the thing. Having a "savior" or martry complex(i think that they can be similar) can go too far. It can end up causing us harm because it takes so much out of us. I wouldnt go so far as to say you gravitate towards women with issues- but your first wife has some control issues, and Marcie has some issues.. perhaps you might look at what about that has attractedyou/if something in that has attracted you and why. For me, and this sounds oh so cliche.. i wonder could it have something to do with the fact that you had issues with your father. Perhaps in seeing how he was, you so greatly wished to be more of a man/a better man/ ect than he was or perhaps you are trying to fix people because you couldnt fix your father. I say this gently.. Im sorry if it comes across harsh. I think these are important things to look at in this situation. Could be just my thinking cap making things up but thats where I would start!

More later

Wow what a long post. thanks for all the info but gotta say here all that information dont mean squat to me. dont take this wrong but Im not a psychiatrist, with credentials for diagnosing and evaluating things on line. and Im not sure who here if anyone has the credentials to do on line psychiatric/medical diagnosing and evaluating. In this post you have hit on I think every possible mental disorder in the DSM's, kinky sex, multiple boyfriends, eating disorders, sexual abuse, divorce, children oh man all I can say is I cant be the one to tell you whether she has HPD or look at all the underside dynamics of whether or not she is a survivor, divorced and all that stuff. I dont think any of us here can or should do that unless theses someone who has credentials for practicing on line psychiatric and medical care.

What matters here isnt what I think, its what you think and obviously you have concerns about youself in this relationship, her and your children, so based on what YOU think of the whole situation you need to be the one to decide what to do.

All I can say is I in my life time have never encountered a person like this so go with what ever your gut is telling you to do. if you think having more contact with this person will benefit you, the children and her go for it. If you think there are no benefits for you, her and the kids then dont.

the getting her into treatment, diagnosing and underlying dynamics well all I got to say to that one is leave it alone let the professionals do the diagnosing and unwinding of the underlying dynamics when and if she decides to go for help. pushing the issue and trying to add all the underlying dynamics into diagnoses you could accidentally end up pushing her right over the cliff or convincing yourself and her that she has things and problems that she may not have.. As her husband the most you can do abot diagnosing and treatment stuff is suggest treatment and then leave it up to her with one alternative - you can call the cops and have her hospitalized if she hurts herself or threatens to do away with herself. so go with your gut.

I would like to say a few things that I’m sure you already know, but they’re important. First, you CANNOT force anyone else into seeking help. Nor can you use this concern as a reason to remain in contact with her. Second, truth is subjective. While you may feel that you are being perfectly honest, this is your perspective. Third, this woman is NOT your problem. She’s made it perfectly clear that she’s finished with this relationship. I’ve read every word you posted and other than an instance or two where she showed what you viewed as curiosity, you’ve been the one beating the dead horse. That would make me very uncomfortable too. I disagree with your therapist to a degree about the facial expression thing. I’ve done this myself with men and it was because I don’t want them to think I’m smiling at them and have them believe there’s a reason to talk to me. Fourth, be VERY careful about how much of this behavior you’re exhibiting at work. You’re working for the government and I hope you’re not using their computers for personal email. This has harassment suit written all over it.

Nani had some excellent advice, get a life. Your future does not include this woman. Let’s assume by some twist of fate this woman changes her mind and seeks a relationship with you. Are you really oblivious to her MO? Do you not see her pattern and the game she plays to make herself feel good about herself? No healthy relationship can develop from this.

Do yourself a favor and work on your own issues. Ask your therapist if she really thinks two people can live in a house and keep their kids in the dark about how bad their relationship is.

I agree with AAAAA. Regardless of all the "what if's" you might come up with, this woman is not healthy, she will ruin you, you will regret any further contact with her; although your obsession with her is understandable because you still have feelings for her, you need to get over her! Her problems are deep and dangerous. She is destined to self-destruct and she will take down anyone near her.

I have known many women like this woman. She was damaged at an early age, being taught that her sexuality is all she has to offer. The result is a woman who has low self-esteem and is insecure, needing constant attention to feed her insecurities; needs to attract relationships with unavailable men so that they can go only so far because she is terrified of a permanent bond, and if the man becomes available, she drops him immediately and goes on to the next conquest. If she happens to form a relationship with an available man, it is always one who treats her like crap, like she was treated when she was young.

You are in therapy to help YOU. Where do you need to go from here regarding your marriage and children? What do you need to do regarding your serenity and self-esteem? I can tell that your narrative indicates that you are very intelligent, articulate, but perhaps introverted and a bit lonely. Focus in on those and look at where you want to be in two years or five years. Your therapist will let you sit and rattle on about this woman as long as you want, he/she gets paid the same regardless. But it isn't doing you any good. Place your efforts where they will do you the most good and meet your needs in the best way.

I am speaking from experience, dear. I am in my fourth marriage and I finally figured out that I deserved better than the men I was picking. This one is a winner and we will celebrate ten years together this month. But it took a lot of work and a lot of mistakes. You have the opportunity to get a jump on it and not go through quite as much pain as I did.

I wish you the best.