[polarstar]

Hello everyone. Just a friendly warning; this is going to be a rather long post-I find myself still dwelling on the problem and I wish not to leave anything out.
I would like to start by giving you an idea of what kind of person I am. I am VERY CHILDISH when it comes to my feelings. It comes from a combination of my overprotective parents and being bullied in school; humiliated, ignored and insulted by people who claimed to be my friends. I don't think they were actually aware of how hurt I got by their behavior, and I never told them that. I tend to keep things and emotions for myself. Now I know kids get bullied all the time-but I suppose we are not all equally able to get over it. I was always a magnet for those nasty bullies and learned to play my part really well. Where I come from you simply don't discuss emotional problems. A problem is not having money to put the food on the table *though ironically enough my family never had problems with money*. So this turned into a pattern-I keep my fears and dilemmas to myself and everybody thinks I am cheery and wonderful all the time.
My problems began five months ago. I had traveled abroad to study at a University. Even tough I had lived away from my family before that, this was the farthest I had ever gone until then. I felt free, confident and sociable enough to instantly make two friends whom I shall call Lisa and Sarah. Even though I am 22, my feelings for a slightly older Lisa can only be described as those of a child towards an older sibling or a parent even. She was an amazingly caring friend from day one. She would keep me company all the time, say wonderful things about me and tell me we should not leave each other for new people. I am usually very suspicious of people and it takes some time for me to start trusting them-but she managed to go around that wall and become somebody very important to me. Sarah on the other hand was in my opinion an annoying chatterbox discussing strange, dark and at times scary topics about supernatural matters or the spiritual world. I didn't like her at all but I kept my mouth shut. I was kind of jealous and didn't want to drive away Lisa with my jealousy.
I know it sounds irrational to get attached to somebody in two weeks time-that is what happened. That is when I started noticing Lisa was distancing herself away from Sarah and me. It started with us not hearing from her in a few days after which she sent me a text. Then I ran into her and we talked for almost two hours with her saying she felt like she was neglecting us and insisted on keeping me company at the local store while I was doing my shopping. After that I asked her a few times to join Sarah and me for dinner at Sarah's place and she declined every invite. Sarah was the first one to bring up Lisa's behavior and said we should talk to her. But because I don't know how to confront people and I was already emotionally involved-I decided to be all passive aggressive about it. I thought Lisa would eventually figure out she was hurting me-I mean-she said it herself-she felt like she was neglecting us. And then I read on her Facebook she was going to a concert-the concert we discussed going to together. She was going with her new friends and she didn't even invite me. I got really upset and depressed and decided very childishly I should ignore her. That wasn't very difficult since she wasn't really trying to communicate with me. She would like an occasional FB status and one time she sent me a text on alarms which I didn't answer to. On the day of the concert I ran into her but I was so angry I just said hi even though she probably wanted to casually chat and make herself believe that everything was okay. A week later I left a status on my FB she finally figured out. I said I didn't need people in my life who so obviously didn't want to be my friends. It was late and we started arguing through FB messages *stupid I know* and she had an excuse for every single thing I called her on. I tried conveying to her how hurt I was by her behavior and all I got was her ironic and defensive attitude. She told me she didn't invite me to the concert because I had canceled one of our previous plans and she didn't want to risk not going to it. I told her she could have asked me in addition to her friends so she wouldn't have risked anything. Then she said they bought the tickets in a hurry and it made all the sense of the world to her to go with people she saw every day. She also said a real friend would understand she was busy with her studies. I told her that in two weeks time she could have found time for one coffee or one lunch-especially since we live minutes away from each other and go to same Uni and eat at the same place every single day-especially since just a week ago she was saying very different things about our friendship and us not leaving each other for new people. She wasn't ready to admit to anything and I was too busy victimizing myself, so at one point I just wished her a happy life and deleted her off of my FB.
That's when i started talking to Sarah about everything and she actually changed her story. She now was not discussing Lisa's strange behavior but said we were equally to be blamed about the situation. She also said there was a deep connection between Lisa and me and that we both got really hurt. Since I don't like the idea of hurting somebody and Sarah now convinced me Lisa was not simply being convenient and selfish about everything, I started trying to communicate with Lisa. I fist sent her this idiotic message asking her to treat each other in a polite way in spite of the fight. Then I sent her a few texts asking her to talk to me and a long apologetic letter. She ignored me-completely. So a friend advised me I should get nasty with her and make her react. I sent her a nasty text, well it wasn't really nasty, it was just very honest about how much she made me feel like crap and she still hadn't answer. You would think this was enough for me-but no. One night I called her, we talked for about two minutes after which she hung up. I tried calling her after that, feeling insulted and simply angry. Since she wasn't answering i went to her apartment *she lives two minutes away* and she said she would not talk to me at all. So i uttered something nasty and left. This was over four months ago. Since then I changed my FB accout (she had me blocked on my old one) and told her she could do it again if she wanted to because the new account was not for her benefit *and it wasn't, I change my accounts quite a lot*. So she did-block me again. This was two months ago.
I still find myself dwelling on the friendship, missing those two to three weeks of us hanging out, wandering how badly I hurt somebody i cared about. I am still confused. She did not have to be so nice and invested and say all those things and at the end of the day she didn't have to ignore me to that point. I could just use some fresh outlook on the situation since I don't feel like I can trust Sarah which is a topic for another post. I know this may seem like a trivial problem but it is bothering me quite a lot. My friends tell me I am simply emotionally immature and that I will grow out of it. In order to do that in this particular situation-I would like to know what happened with Lisa but she unfortunately does not speak to me anymore. I still do not understand her behavior.
Thank you very much in advance.

[animasana]

I'm really sorry to hear about your friendship troubles. I was very interested in your story because I've gone through something similar. I can also relate to your history of hiding emotions, and being hesitant to trust people.

In my opinion, from experiences of trying to work through problems, there are some friendship issues that can't be resolved. I honestly feel like, at this point, your guys' relationship is probably over. There may be hope that you could re-establish contact in the future when you've both had time to fully move on and reflect on the situation. But I feel like that is something that may take time. I really think the best thing to do is just let the situation cool down.

Understand that you are a great, caring person regardless of whether or not she wants to remain friends with you.

I understand completely the dilemma of emotional immaturity.I also have to say that you possess a magnificent insight as to why you are functioning this way...its cause,its effects.I have to believe that puts you in the driver seat with a learning permit...closer to driving than many.

Quote: "It comes from a combination of my overprotective parents and being bullied in school; humiliated, ignored and insulted by people who claimed to be my friends. I don't think they were actually aware of how hurt I got by their behavior, and I never told them that. I tend to keep things and emotions for myself.I suppose we are not all equally able to get over it."

Completely on target.

Being dissatisfied with the results of :

Quote: "I keep my fears and dilemmas to myself and everybody thinks I am cheery and wonderful all the time."

I have to ask...why not communicate the things you think/feel?What is the true risk?With bosses,teachers,co-workers...I see the difficulty...(In relationships...I HAVE the difficulty...)but reading your words...and standing outside me...I am asking........

What is the difficulty...in this context?That of friendships.What is the worse that can happen if you make a statement like the following...? :"I very much enjoy ______ about you,and I feel good that we are _______together.You are important to me,so I want you to know,when you ______,I feel_________."

The communication;in this context,is not condemning toward a friend.It is not attacking.But you will get two basic sorts of responses.Either...remorselessness...because they are not empathizing with your feelings,or a ..."Wow,I had no idea I came off like that,or,I had no idea you were feeling that way.".

But,expressing your feelings will help you know where things stand and help those who know you...know you better.

To begin with ...know your self.Find out what your values are.What is your definition of a 'good' friend?Will you desire a friend who can forgive you for a 'regrettable moment?' What defines a 'regrettable moment' for you...and what behaviors are 'deal breakers' in friendships/personal relationships?Deal-breakers being...things you feel are absolute lines drawn between what you'll accept from a fellow human...and things from which there's no way to go back to friendship.

Do you have 'double-standards'?I mean to ask...are the guidelines you behave under different for you than those you have for your friendships?What mistakes might you make...and hope to be forgiven for?What mistakes would you expect to break your 'friends' desire to remain your friend?Try to hold the same values/standards for yourself,that you expect from others.Be constant.It will bring you a sense of security that you 'know yourself'.

Another point is to allow yourself the room to be young...you are 22...socially,and in every other way,as a human,we are constantly growing emotionally ...even fluctuating,depending on circumstance,wellness,stress...etc.As you age ,I expect you will settle into knowing you better and behaving from an expected stance.For 22...I find you to be waaaaaaaaay more together than any 22 year old I have heard speak!

Where did the jealousy come from?I would imagine it comes from a perceived threat,a threat that the other may matter more than you...or somehow be better than you in some way.I think it's like me having three sons.(which I have).But,of the three I have...I love different sets of factors with each one.One is highly intelligent,and intense.Another is mysterious,studious,and spiritual,and the other is an artist,nearly without boundaries...a poetic,joker & lover of all the arts.My moments with each can vary..but can't be compared.One can't replace the other.Maybe I fit better in some ways...but still.I love them all uniquely,individually.

My point is,as you move through life,and understand you and how you relate to others better...you'll evolve to be comfortable being good enough that you can be important even in a group.

Quote: "But because I don't know how to confront people and I was already emotionally involved-I decided to be all passive aggressive about it. I thought Lisa would eventually figure out she was hurting me"

How did that work out for you?What might have been another option?

Quote:
"She was going to a concert-the concert we discussed going to together. She was going with her new friends and she didn't even invite me. I got really upset and depressed and decided very childishly I should ignore her."
She also said a real friend would understand she was busy with her studies. I told her that in two weeks time she could have found time for one coffee or one lunch-especially since we live minutes away from each other and go to same Uni and eat at the same place every single day"

Gosh,you sound like me.lol...I am 43...might speaking to her about it have changed anything she did?We can only ever control ourselves...and it may be that most often,things don't pan out as we want...but,we can feel ok knowing WE did the right thing.Frankly my feelings would have been hurt by this too.Perhaps this person is poorly matched to be a close friend?

Quote: "I said I didn't need people in my life who so obviously didn't want to be my friends. It was late and we started arguing through FB messages *stupid I know* and she had an excuse for every single thing I called her on."

....sounds madness making,sounds immature on her part....if it was all excuses...or was it that she was communicating to you what the thoughts were behind her actions?

Quote: "I tried conveying to her how hurt I was by her behavior and all I got was her ironic and defensive attitude."

Another frustration making behavior...just finding her to be a bit young minded.

Quote: "I told her she could have asked me in addition to her friends so she wouldn't have risked anything. Then she said they bought the tickets in a hurry and it made all the sense of the world to her to go with people she saw every day. She also said a real friend would understand she was busy with her studies."

(That'd feel demeaning & manipulative to me.Is there a websters dictionary definition of "real-friend"...what is that?If we are all unique...then,'real friend' doesn't fit into a little box.)

Quote: "I told her that in two weeks time she could have found time for one coffee or one lunch-especially since we live minutes away from each other and go to same Uni and eat at the same place every single day-especially since just a week ago she was saying very different things about our friendship and us not leaving each other for new people."

Absolutely agreed.She certainly would have found time,had she made you any priority.

Quote: "She wasn't ready to admit to anything and I was too busy victimizing myself.

Again,so astute,mature.You are very ahead of your age.

Quote: "So at one point I just wished her a happy life and deleted her off of my FB."

Well...sometimes enough is enough.

Quote: "She also said there was a deep connection between Lisa and me and that we both got really hurt."

Even if she was right...the fact remains that her track record is that of someone who can really leave you hanging,and not address things maturely as she subsequently did ...again.

Quote: "I still find myself dwelling on the friendship, missing those two to three weeks of us hanging out, wandering how badly I hurt somebody i cared about."

....I really think you behaved conscientiously and made a huge effort.You obviously possess a very loving spirit.

Quote: "She did not have to be so nice and invested and say all those things and at the end of the day she didn't have to ignore me to that point."

I would say that this is the major 'fault-line' with her...and I can't see it changing in the nearest bit of the future,sadly.

Quote: "My friends tell me I am simply emotionally immature and that I will grow out of it."

Sorry...but,I disagree with your friends.You may think and feel way more than them...but,dam...you're way more mature than me...lol.

Quote:"In order to do that in this particular situation-I would like to know what happened with Lisa."

....and that,my dear,is why I think you are mature!

Quote: "She unfortunately does not speak to me anymore. I still do not understand her behavior."

Let the past predict the future...know your worth...try to let go.It is an emotional Merry-go-round.



Wolf.
p.s....yes,the fact that I wrote the word Quote: a million and 1/2 X ,in retrospect...looks really odd....haha

[polarstar]

Originally Posted by animasana

I'm really sorry to hear about your friendship troubles. I was very interested in your story because I've gone through something similar. I can also relate to your history of hiding emotions, and being hesitant to trust people.

In my opinion, from experiences of trying to work through problems, there are some friendship issues that can't be resolved. I honestly feel like, at this point, your guys' relationship is probably over. There may be hope that you could re-establish contact in the future when you've both had time to fully move on and reflect on the situation. But I feel like that is something that may take time. I really think the best thing to do is just let the situation cool down.

Understand that you are a great, caring person regardless of whether or not she wants to remain friends with you.

Hi. First of all thank you for your reply and I apologise I have not replied until now. I found myself in a rather dificult situation (health related) and just got home to read your wonderful words of support. Yes-the friendship is over-if I have ever hoped to renew it-the hope is gone. She hurt me a lot (I am not saying I did not do that to her as well), however, this is not spite or anger speaking-this is the fear I would get hurt again. I still do not understand her behaviour, I would even call it irrational-but maybe I am just not able to put myself in her shoes. She obiously has not tried the same-so yeah-I have had a lot of broken friendships in my life-this is the first one that got to me so badly. Anyway, thank you very much. I do have a few close friends who prove to me over an over again then I am not worthless. If you ever need a talk-let me know.

[madisgram]

sounds like the prob doesn't lie with you but the other two. my best advice is to move on. spend time with the friends that value you as a person. in time you may see how dysfunctional the other 2 are.

[SophiaG]

Well, it was only a few weeks. I doubt any friendship of real substance could occur in that small of a time-span.

[polarstar]

Originally Posted by wolfsong

I understand completely the dilemma of emotional immaturity.I also have to say that you possess a magnificent insight as to why you are functioning this way...its cause,its effects.I have to believe that puts you in the driver seat with a learning permit...closer to driving than many.

Quote: "It comes from a combination of my overprotective parents and being bullied in school; humiliated, ignored and insulted by people who claimed to be my friends. I don't think they were actually aware of how hurt I got by their behavior, and I never told them that. I tend to keep things and emotions for myself.I suppose we are not all equally able to get over it."

Completely on target.

Being dissatisfied with the results of :

Quote: "I keep my fears and dilemmas to myself and everybody thinks I am cheery and wonderful all the time."

I have to ask...why not communicate the things you think/feel?What is the true risk?With bosses,teachers,co-workers...I see the difficulty...(In relationships...I HAVE the difficulty...)but reading your words...and standing outside me...I am asking........

What is the difficulty...in this context?That of friendships.What is the worse that can happen if you make a statement like the following...? :"I very much enjoy ______ about you,and I feel good that we are _______together.You are important to me,so I want you to know,when you ______,I feel_________."

The communication;in this context,is not condemning toward a friend.It is not attacking.But you will get two basic sorts of responses.Either...remorselessness...because they are not empathizing with your feelings,or a ..."Wow,I had no idea I came off like that,or,I had no idea you were feeling that way.".

But,expressing your feelings will help you know where things stand and help those who know you...know you better.

To begin with ...know your self.Find out what your values are.What is your definition of a 'good' friend?Will you desire a friend who can forgive you for a 'regrettable moment?' What defines a 'regrettable moment' for you...and what behaviors are 'deal breakers' in friendships/personal relationships?Deal-breakers being...things you feel are absolute lines drawn between what you'll accept from a fellow human...and things from which there's no way to go back to friendship.

Do you have 'double-standards'?I mean to ask...are the guidelines you behave under different for you than those you have for your friendships?What mistakes might you make...and hope to be forgiven for?What mistakes would you expect to break your 'friends' desire to remain your friend?Try to hold the same values/standards for yourself,that you expect from others.Be constant.It will bring you a sense of security that you 'know yourself'.

Another point is to allow yourself the room to be young...you are 22...socially,and in every other way,as a human,we are constantly growing emotionally ...even fluctuating,depending on circumstance,wellness,stress...etc.As you age ,I expect you will settle into knowing you better and behaving from an expected stance.For 22...I find you to be waaaaaaaaay more together than any 22 year old I have heard speak!

Where did the jealousy come from?I would imagine it comes from a perceived threat,a threat that the other may matter more than you...or somehow be better than you in some way.I think it's like me having three sons.(which I have).But,of the three I have...I love different sets of factors with each one.One is highly intelligent,and intense.Another is mysterious,studious,and spiritual,and the other is an artist,nearly without boundaries...a poetic,joker & lover of all the arts.My moments with each can vary..but can't be compared.One can't replace the other.Maybe I fit better in some ways...but still.I love them all uniquely,individually.

My point is,as you move through life,and understand you and how you relate to others better...you'll evolve to be comfortable being good enough that you can be important even in a group.

Quote: "But because I don't know how to confront people and I was already emotionally involved-I decided to be all passive aggressive about it. I thought Lisa would eventually figure out she was hurting me"

How did that work out for you?What might have been another option?

Quote:
"She was going to a concert-the concert we discussed going to together. She was going with her new friends and she didn't even invite me. I got really upset and depressed and decided very childishly I should ignore her."
She also said a real friend would understand she was busy with her studies. I told her that in two weeks time she could have found time for one coffee or one lunch-especially since we live minutes away from each other and go to same Uni and eat at the same place every single day"

Gosh,you sound like me.lol...I am 43...might speaking to her about it have changed anything she did?We can only ever control ourselves...and it may be that most often,things don't pan out as we want...but,we can feel ok knowing WE did the right thing.Frankly my feelings would have been hurt by this too.Perhaps this person is poorly matched to be a close friend?

Quote: "I said I didn't need people in my life who so obviously didn't want to be my friends. It was late and we started arguing through FB messages *stupid I know* and she had an excuse for every single thing I called her on."

....sounds madness making,sounds immature on her part....if it was all excuses...or was it that she was communicating to you what the thoughts were behind her actions?

Quote: "I tried conveying to her how hurt I was by her behavior and all I got was her ironic and defensive attitude."

Another frustration making behavior...just finding her to be a bit young minded.

Quote: "I told her she could have asked me in addition to her friends so she wouldn't have risked anything. Then she said they bought the tickets in a hurry and it made all the sense of the world to her to go with people she saw every day. She also said a real friend would understand she was busy with her studies."

(That'd feel demeaning & manipulative to me.Is there a websters dictionary definition of "real-friend"...what is that?If we are all unique...then,'real friend' doesn't fit into a little box.)

Quote: "I told her that in two weeks time she could have found time for one coffee or one lunch-especially since we live minutes away from each other and go to same Uni and eat at the same place every single day-especially since just a week ago she was saying very different things about our friendship and us not leaving each other for new people."

Absolutely agreed.She certainly would have found time,had she made you any priority.

Quote: "She wasn't ready to admit to anything and I was too busy victimizing myself.

Again,so astute,mature.You are very ahead of your age.

Quote: "So at one point I just wished her a happy life and deleted her off of my FB."

Well...sometimes enough is enough.

Quote: "She also said there was a deep connection between Lisa and me and that we both got really hurt."

Even if she was right...the fact remains that her track record is that of someone who can really leave you hanging,and not address things maturely as she subsequently did ...again.

Quote: "I still find myself dwelling on the friendship, missing those two to three weeks of us hanging out, wandering how badly I hurt somebody i cared about."

....I really think you behaved conscientiously and made a huge effort.You obviously possess a very loving spirit.

Quote: "She did not have to be so nice and invested and say all those things and at the end of the day she didn't have to ignore me to that point."

I would say that this is the major 'fault-line' with her...and I can't see it changing in the nearest bit of the future,sadly.

Quote: "My friends tell me I am simply emotionally immature and that I will grow out of it."

Sorry...but,I disagree with your friends.You may think and feel way more than them...but,dam...you're way more mature than me...lol.

Quote:"In order to do that in this particular situation-I would like to know what happened with Lisa."

....and that,my dear,is why I think you are mature!

Quote: "She unfortunately does not speak to me anymore. I still do not understand her behavior."

Let the past predict the future...know your worth...try to let go.It is an emotional Merry-go-round.



Wolf.
p.s....yes,the fact that I wrote the word Quote: a million and 1/2 X ,in retrospect...looks really odd....haha

THANK YOU so much for your reply! Again, I apologise for not replying sooner, I have had some health issues that kept me away from the comfort of my home and I was under the impression I replied to both comments. You made me feel so much better.

[polarstar]

First of all: THANK YOU for your replies. It is nice to know people care. More coming up. Thank you for reading.

This is about Sarah. As funny as it is I made my peace with the fact Lisa got under my skin and she will probably stay there for some time. I haven't seen her in a while so I don't really think about it anymore as much as I used to. I do feel uncomfortable when I run into her friends thinking they all hate me, but that's why I have my friends telling me I'm being silly and should focus on those people who care about me.

This is about Sarah. I didn't like her from the beginning. Too chatty and too weird. I tried being extra nice to her so Lisa wouldn't notice how jealous I was of her being with us all the time. When the problems with Lisa happened-Sarah promised to talk to her about it-she never did. (well-that I know of) They are still friends on FB even though Lisa stopped hanging out with her about the time she stopped hanging out with me. One could argue she just *let me have her* but my opinion is-Lisa wanted Sarah out of the picture-as so many people do.

This is the first thing I resent. Why didn't Sarah ever talk to Lisa? If not about me-then about herself being mistreated by her? She said she would. This is what encouraged me to get upset about the situation-knowing I wasn't the only one seeing Lisa's behavior as something bad. After my fight Sarah suddenly changed her story. It was Lisa's fault at the beginning-now it was our fault. She promised she would talk to her-she didn't. She kept talking to me about this strong emotional connection between Lisa and me which made me seek out Lisa so many times. I didn't have to do that-of course-but I felt bad about hurting her. I should have stuck to my initial theory-Lisa was being convenient and selfish-it happens-I get like that at times. Sarah also managed to convince me Lisa's friend was the one plotting the whole fight thing which made me hate Lisa's friend for no reason. I mean-she doesn't say hi to me anymore-but I think that's understandable considering Lisa and I don't speak anymore and the last time we spoke-I strongly implied I thought her friends had something to do with the fight *again Sarah talking-not me*

So I stuck with Sarah for a while-main reason was to prove you don't have to ditch your old friends in order to find new ones. I got a lovely bunch of people around me and tried to integrate Sarah into the group. It failed miserably-for the most part. The three girls I'm closest to today (including one that has become like a sister to me and I love her very much), can't stand Sarah. They are not mean-but honest. Sarah has a way of discussing her own personal issues in front of everyone-talking about the supernatural as it was true and talking without letting anyone else speak.

Even though Sarah listened to my problems and try to give me advice *bad ones though*, there was always a part of me that thought I was simply being manipulated by her. She had a way of making me feel bad about myself. She would hear me speak of my friends and say things like: I am glad they are not your only friends and you have persons A and B. Why would she say that? Also she told me somebody close to me will try to manipulate me but she won't tell me who. It's like she's playing these little games. But I got sick of it. I saw in her a connection to Lisa and the minute I gave up on that-I started noticing things about Sarah that made me feel very uncomfortable.

Sarah also told me some very disturbing things about herself-I will not repeat them but let's just say I advised her to seek professional help. These things were borderline delusional and they scared me. Even now I'm not sure she actually believes it but was testing my belief and my loyalty. I talked about it to my close friends and they advised me to stay away from her. She doesn't show any signs of being potentially dangerous but me being so naive and sensitive-she could easily play with my mind.

I started distancing myself from Sarah a couple of months ago. I saw there was no future but didn't want to be like Lisa and ditch an old friend for a new one. So I kept forcing it even though I was scared of her manipulating me into something. Maybe I was being paranoid-I don't know. During Easter my friends and I went on a trip. It was an organised trip, not an individual one like it was initially supposed to be-but I kind of left that part out with Sarah fearing she would want to join us. My friends told me they didn't want her on the trip so I kept it quiet even though Sarah knew we were going to do something. I promised her I would take another trip with her once I got back.

On this trip I broke my leg-badly. Had a surgery and spent a lot of time in the hospital. I have been basically dependent on others for the past two months. Sarah lives two minutes away from me and she still hasn't come to see me. Only time she called is when her flatmate needed a favor. My theory is she is mad at me for not inviting her to the trip. I know I have been distancing myself from her-and honestly-if I actually cared about her I would say something. She is leaving in a month and will probably want to talk about the whole thing. Bad as I may sound-I couldn't care less if I were never to talk to her again-but I know she'll seek me out and want to have a long talk about how much I hurt her. I understand she is hurt-but was their manipulation involved or not? Am I being too paranoid or not??

Again, THANK YOU SO MUCH for your advice.