Yours/mine/ours

Men always think of ownership and material possessions. Everything mentioned in this as a sacrifice by you is loss of material goods. Statistics show that men can regain their social life and a good level of life after a divorce or separation while most women fall behind in careers and income as well as responsibility for raising the children. I applaud you for providing the support for your children, but, there is more to life than financial ownership. Trust, respect, honesty, and teamwork. This involves acknowledging the contributions that each aprtner gives (not always financial) to maintain a healthy family life. The culture of consumerism in our society is too elevated over the basic morals and responsibilities of a marriage and family.

After reading this, and mind you, Im not a therapist, or a doc, or a genie.....but it seems that you really need to hit the therapy hard and find out about yourself....I know your wife has problems as well that she needs to address, because no, its never ok to hit someone and treat them like crap......but you also need to address what is it inside you that makes you not content...I ask this only because before I was diagnosed, I was never content....my relationship wasnt enough; the things in my house were never enough, etc.....and if you dont get to the bottom of that, even if you do reconcile, it is not going to work. Your wife needs to seek treatment as well and find out what is making her so angry at you, besides the whole affair thing. Maybe its a fact of that the cant forgive and forget from the last time (which forgive and forgetting is the hardest thing to do...)....or maybe she has other issues going on as well....best of luck to you...I know you are in quite a pickle right now

I am in therapy, but I can't see my T now because I'm doing the intensive outpatient thing and my insurance won't pay for both at once. I think my T is part of the problem. I like her, she's a nice lady and easy to talk to, but I never leave feeling like I got any real insight or ideas how to cope better. I'm thinking once I get out of the IOP I may need to try another T at the same practice or start completely over somewhere else.

Just for the record the violence started long before the first affair. The affair probably didn't help, but it's not what started the problem. My wife is seeing both a religious counselor and a real T, but I don't know if her anger and violence are issues they are working on. I don't even know if she considers anger and violence to be issues she needs to work on. With things as delicate as they are right now, I'm not going to push to find out.

I know for the most part what my issues with the marriage are, but they aren't things I've been working on with my T. We've mostly been discussing trying to survive my depression. The manic side of my BP, my anxiety, my PTSD, and my OCD have all never really been addressed. Then I still need to work on my issues with the marriage, feeling used, unappreciated, taken for granted, unloved except for when she tries to smother me with way too much physical affection (which she is really needy about), and the whole physical/sexual relationship which is somewhere between lousy and nonexistent. Even if she gets her issues worked out and stops hitting me and starts acting like she appreciates me, I'll still have a long way to go working on my own stuff.

I did just ask about the violence being an issue for her in therapy. She said it's not something she is currently working on because she doesn't think it is a current issue, but she may work on it in the future. Take that however you want.

It doesn't really matter how we take it, how do you take it?

I take it that she's in denial. She's not strong enough that I worry much about being physically injured, although I have had to stop her from trying to grab a kitchen knife a few times. I do get tired of being hit, though. I think her violence is every bit as big an issue as my cheating. I've been humiliating myself on my knees apologizing for my infidelity, but in 18 years I've never gotten more than a token "sorry" the next morning, and usually not even that. She's been violent a lot more times over a lot longer time period than I have cheated. I cheated twice, 13 years apart. She started attacking me during temper tantrums before we made it to our first anniversary and has never let up for more than a few months between attacks in the entire 18 years. That's one of the biggest reasons I say she has to change too (and quite a few people here have said I have no right to expect her to change anything) if this is ever going to work again. But for her it's "not a current issue". She wants all the emphasis on how wrong I was to cheat (and I was wrong), but none on the reasons at home that made starting over with someone else look so appealing. I just hope the counseling she's getting will address the anger and violence and the all or nothing mindset of who's at fault. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Bow, keep coming here, keeping up with your P and reaching out...you can do it. inch by inch you are coming out of the darkness.

Take care.

(((bowhunt72)))),

I have taken some time out to read a lot of what has been going on with you. And I agree with all the other posters in that you need to work on yourself right now aside from this big relationship divorce battle.

From what you have said thus far, your wife has some deep problems to begin with and she needs to figure that out in therapy. This situation that is going on between you is getting in the way of what you both need to work through first, the base core issues in each of you that has lead up to the situation you are both in now. Yes the BOTH of you have some core issues going on and this whole marriage situation is reflecting on that but also getting in the way of taking a look at what the two of you need to see first.

Now, if I use myself as an example because I am dealing with PTSD myself, and at this point in my efforts to deal with my PTSD, I am seeing my own core issues that I never really understood before. We all can have core issues that may have developed in our childhoods and went on in life thinking that we were supposed to just get over it and grow up and deal.
But this is not the way it really works. We all carry our core issues throughout our lives and all we really ever did is adapt, but they never got truely resolved.

Somehow we all seem to have these holes that we need filled (this is not truely always consciously recognized) and when we seek out a partner that seems to fill this hole, we think WE HAVE FOUND THE RIGHT MATCH. Wow, that is far from the truth because the reality is WE CANNOT EXPECT ANY OTHER PERSON TO TRUELY FILL OUR HOLES, THAT IS SOMETHING "WE" HAVE TO DO FOR OURSELVES.

And this other woman you talk about? The way you talk about her? You thought SHE was filling your hole too. And guess what, THAT DIDN'T WORK OUT EITHER DID IT? And bowhunt?, if you are ever going to have ANY worth while relationship, you have to first, address your own CORE issues.

Now in the beginning when you first started to post questions and seek advice, the one thing that stuck out to everyone is YOU CHEATED ON YOUR WIFE. But that is pretty normal because to every person whenever the issue of TRUST is threatened, IT IS THE PERSON WHO BROKE THE BOND OF TRUST THAT IS MOST AT FAULT. This is how everyone feels and how you would feel if it was YOUR WIFE that cheated on YOU. It is how you feel about this OTHER WOMAN as WELL. This other woman BROKE "YOUR" trust in HER too.

And bowhunt? I can say that I went through this too, MY HUSBAND CHEATED ON ME and I HAVE TRUST ISSUES NOW MYSELF AS WELL.
And my husband cheated on me because of HIS CORE ISSUES, and I reacted with a lot of anger and loss BECAUSE OF MY OWN CORE ISSUES.
And as I address my PTSD that stretches all the way back to a very troubled child that simply grew up in a disfuctional situation, well, I am finally seeing MY OWN CORE ISSUES in a completely different light.

All I can say is WOW. And when I look past my own issues to the people that raised me, my parents, THEY HAD SOME VERY TROUBLING CORE ISSUES THAT THEY DEALT WITH TOO. And THEIR issues were a big part of MY core issues. And I am bringing this up because both you and your wife have to think about this in regards to YOUR INNOCENT CHILDREN.

While you and your wife are in this troubling conflict, your children are only seeing one thing, YOU DON'T LOVE THEM ENOUGH TO CONSIDER "THEIR" WELL BEING IN ALL OF THIS. And this is what children think about, they think about THIER SAFETY, TRUST, AND HOW THEIR PARENTS VALUE THEM ENOUGH TO NOT ABANDON THEM.

The most important thing you and your wife have to do, IS TO MAKE SURE YOUR CHILDREN UNDERSTAND THAT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW MUCH YOU LOVE "THEM". Your children do not or should not under any circumstances have to take sides in this situation. If you or your wife include them in THE TWO OF YOUR ISSUES WITH THIS, they do NOT have the capacity to UNDERSTAND THIS. And already your wife has presented to them, DADDY CHEATED ON ALL OF US. This is not fair to your children because YOU DO STILL LOVE THEM.

Think about the reaction that you first got in your initial questions from other posters. This is exactly what your children are feeling in many ways. The average person considers the cheater as the one at fault. And at this point in the diaglogue you are sharing here and with your wife, it is all about YOU, AND YOUR FEELINGS, AND HER AND HER FEELINGS. And the children in their young teens? Oh they have no way of dealing with this and IT IS CAUSING HARM TO THEM. This is a VERY vulnerable age for them, and I was advised on this myself because when I was dealing with the knowledge about my husband cheating I was told that the age of my daughter was so vulnerable that if I wasn't careful it could have a profound effect on HER.

And my daughter's imput was a strong desire for mommy and daddy and her TO BE A FAMILY. And that is what children know, that is thier need for a sense of security. So you and your wife have to put that resposibility as a prioritiy and make sure that your children are not in any way put in the middle of YOU AND YOUR WIFES ISSUES. At the very least they need to be told that even though mom and dad are struggling, they have both of you loving them and they ARE important to you and you DO want their needs met.

And you are your wife cannot argue or do any interacting on any sour level in front of your children. This is YOU PROBLEM AND YOUR WIFES PROBLEM, NOT THEIRS.

So YES, TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF and work on your own core issues, your wife should do the same. But just make sure your children are loved and cared for too.

And you and your wife should not have to discuss the depth of your marital problems with your children. They need to know this is not their issue.

Open Eyes

I think that you are being very honest and candid about your feelings. Me, no less anyone else, is in the position to judge. It doesn't sound like you are making excuses for cheating or being defensive, which is good. Rather, you are ackowleding your mistakes, her mistakes, and you are willing to move forward and work on things. Just give her her space and you continue working on you.

As far as your children, I can tell you this. My father cheated on my mother multiple times and had a mistress. He even brought us around the mistress. Mom wasn't any better because she cheated too. They both did their dirt. The affair happened years ago and my father still holds on to the guilt of it all. Guilt of the pain that he caused us and bringing us around "her". Like you, he was in a loveless marriage filled with abuse and bitterness. He stayed in the relationship for the kids, but it ended up causing more harm than good. It is frighetening for a child to witness their parents attacking each other and being mentally and physicall abusive towards each other. The harm it causes to a child's mental well being is, well, I can't even put it into words. This happened years ago and it still affects how I deal with men in relationships. Speaking from a child's perspective, I can tell you that you need to be honest with your children. I would suggesst talking one on one with each of them. Even though my father did his dirt, and I was hurt that he hurt my mother, I let go of some of those feelings because he took the time out to sit me down, talk candidly about what happened, appologized for any pain he caused me and the rest of the family, and he was genuine. Your children may not forgive you now but you need to give them time. Put your feelings out there, acknoweldge your wrong doings, and move on. Listen when they speak and answer any questions they have. They love you and they love their mother. If you approach them humbly I can't see why they would have nothing to do with you. The relationship is between you and your wife. Your relationship with your children should remain separate. That is what I, as a child, had to understand. What happened was between them. I can't change it and it doesn't diminish the love I have for the both of them. People make mistakes...

Edit: At this point, make sure that your children are ok and you repair any damage it has caused to your relationship with them.

Damn...How dare she say that YOU are the only one with issues.

From: http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/s.../Ohio_laws.htm

Presumably you up and left the marriage, didn't take what you wanted with you so it kind of became your wife's, especially if you bought it (the camera :-) during the marriage. Otherwise, I'd say it was 50/50 whatever you and she agree to equitably or a judge agreed to for you.

They're things. If you want to work on the marriage, that's a relationship and with a person. If you don't want to work on the relationship with this person, divide up the things and move on.

You aren't paying on the house "for" her, you are paying on your joint property so it doesn't get foreclosed on and you both lose more than you bargained for. This is not a game of chicken! Work for the two of you, because you love this person and want to be that kind of person or divide it all up and move on. There is nothing wrong with either choice but doing the "Mine!"/"No, mine!" game children play isn't getting you anywhere but further disgruntled? If you love her, you want her to have whatever she wants to have that is within your means; save up and buy another camera for yourself like that one. Learn to attach to people, not things.

Thank you! thank you!

I grew up not wanting for a thing...

...and now I am paying for it dearly. (Because I never learned to attach to human beings and am just learning now)

Bow, I hope you are starting to realize it was the way the matter was initially presented that garnered "so many opinions against" you. Over time, you have expressed yourself more and shared more and allowed others to get "in" a bit, to be there for you.

regarding your estranged other asking you to ask us what we think... you are kidding, right?!

Wow, lots of good responses. Thank you, everyone. I'll try to address the issues you all raised.

Open Eyes - I agree that I have issues far beyond the cheating to work on, core issues as you called them. That's one of the things that's most frustrating to me right now. I'm reaching out to anyone I think can help me, but I don't think I'm getting the help I need. Outpatient helps some, support groups help some, I don't think my T is much help at all, and I just don't ever feel like I've gained insight into myself or increased my ability to handle my issues. I guess I just keep searching and trying and hope I find the right help sometime before I completely destroy myself.

Yes, to use your phrase I was expecting the other woman to "fill my holes". I was lonely and miserable and hurting, feeling used, abused, taken for granted, taken advantage of, and unappreciated. Finally finding my old lover again, after searching for her several times over the years, seemed perfect at first. She was everything my wife wasn't. She treated me like gold. She never hit me. I was truly, honestly, 100% completely sure I was in love and it was the real thing that would last for our lifetimes. Then our pasts caught up with us, our own issues came out, and the whole thing blew up. I'm still not angry with her, even after finding out her betrayal was worse than I thought. I'm sad and hurt, but I feel sorry for her more than anything. I think she's every bit as screwed up and damaged as I am, and I bet her side of the story would sound a lot like mine. It just wasn't destined to be, we weren't really each other's perfect fit as much as it seemed like we were, and trying to have her fill those holes in me just resulted in a lot of hurt to me and those around me.

I've tried to keep my kids as far away from this as I can, but they're smart kids. They've seen the problems. They've heard the arguments and seen her hit me. They know I left their mother for another woman. My son has screamed into my face that he's never even met this person but he hates her for taking his father away. I need to allow them to express their feelings about me and what I did and I need to apologize to them. I keep waiting for the right time, but it never seems to happen. I think I'll have to just grit my teeth and make sometime the right time or this will just fester forever.

Irreplaceable - I agree with what you say about my kids, see my comments to Open Eyes and Anika. They know that both of their parents have been wrong, although I'm the only one that cheated and I'm the one that moved out. All I can do is try to address my side of the wrongs with them. I have no idea what their mother has said about her role, and I have no control over it.

Getting hit and kicked and bitten has gotten very old, but I draw the line at allowing her to stab me. In all honesty, my biggest fear is that someday she'll push me too far and I'll hurt her. I don't want to go to jail, but that's not what's most important. What is important is that no matter how we feel about each other and no matter how many times she has attacked me, I don't want her hurt. I may be angry with her, but I don't want to hurt her.

Perna - thank you for the legal reference. I hope it won't be necessary. This will not come to a drawn out courtroom divorce battle. This is not legally binding, but it is my given word. If we mutually decide that we are unable to reconcile, or if I still want to stay together but she is absolutely certain she wants the marriage to end, I have given my word that I will sign a dissolution agreement with no further fighting. I drew up the agreement independent of my lawyer (knowing he already thinks I'm crazy for not fighting tooth and nail) based on a letter she had her attorney send me back at the start of all this with a proposal for separation. She and her lawyer reviewed it and made a few changes, and we are agreed on it. If we decide the time has come, we will sign it instead of dragging this through the courtroom. In this document I agreed to give her the house and all the equity in it, along with two of our three vehicles. She will receive 50% of my pension in accordance with state law. We agreed on the amount of child support to be paid and that I will continue to provide health insurance for the children. We specified who gets what with the major outdoor equipment like my tractor. As far as personal property, like my camera, we state only that we will agree on the distribution between ourselves. That is legally very risky, but we believe we can still work together enough to settle the matter like adults. We currently plan to sign this agreement as a legal separation rather than a dissolution that will formally end the marriage, but it could be used either way.

The camera, my reason for starting this thread, is finally back in my possession. I have agreed to let the kids use it as needed for school or 4H photography projects, and even offered my wife the use of it provided it comes back to me. The reason I was so irate was the principle of the thing, that she took away and hid something she knew was important to me simply to be vindictive. She didn't "loan" it to anyone, she had someone hide it. No pictures were taken during the three months she kept it from me. Replacing it was not then and is not now an option. It's not the absolute top of the line, but it's a very nice and moderately expensive camera. I bought it when our financial circumstances were very different than what they are now, and replacing it now is far beyond my means when I'm having to rely on food pantries and charity to eat because I have given up most of my income to seek help at the hospital.

I agree with everyone that has said I was too attached to the camera and other material things. A few posts back I mentioned that I had discussed it with my wife and agreed that my insistence on things bought with my income having to be mine has caused a lot of unnecessary arguments during our marriage. I have many regrets there, wondering how many other fights could have been resolved if we weren't already angry with each other over material possessions.

Rose -

"regarding your estranged other asking you to ask us what we think... you are kidding, right?! "

nope, not kidding. I told her I was getting beat up over it and becoming increasingly convinced I was wrong and asked what she thought. She asked me to ask your opinions, so I did.

(((bowhunt))),

You have to give therapy a chance to work for you. There is definitely NO quick fix for this mess. Right now everyone is angry and feeling betrayed in some way even your children. And that display of anger from your son, and he was angry at the other woman, well, he is angry that something disturbed his family and right now that is this other woman. He doesn't understand right now that you and his mother were having problems before that took place. And as I said your children don't have the capacity right now to understand relationships and the problems that can come up.
Children rely on their parents for comfort and direction and they honestly don't like it when that is damaged, they can't see beyond that need right now. This is why this is a hard age to have this happen. Your kids are just at the beginning of slowly getting to know themselves and they are not ready to handle something like this. So let him express his anger, he deserves that. At some point you are going to have to sit down with him and explain to him that this has nothing to do with your love for him. He was looking at you as a role model and now he just doesn't understand this whole big mess. But that is typical of what happens and that is going to take time. Most important is that you always make sure he knows you still LOVE HIM and are going to be there for HIM.

Men are fixers and often very black and white, so this is coming hard for you. This is not a simple black and white you are going to fix it right away simple answer situation.

Your wife has had issues for a long time too and her hitting you etc is anger from something, but that seems to be something troubling coming from HER past that she is taking out on you and always has. And this cheating is feeding that to be honest. I don't really know if there can ever be another healthy bond between the two of you. As I said, you both have some core issues to figure out first. And you have to not blame everything on yourself as well, and give yourself a chance to view the relationship as a hole and why you did seek love somewhere else. You have been seeing some of that and talking about that here. But you have not discussed what is truely behind this troubling anger that your wife has brought into your relationship with her.

You have to find a way to put aside your desire to FIX what is broken and step back and take time out. Already your wife has expressed some anger as well as the fact that the only reason she has talked about reconciliation is to buy time. So in a way you are both looking to establish some kind of safety in some way. And you cannot blame her for that, or yourself either. And you cant just try to patch something solely for "POSSESSIONS" as Perna is discribing. It is the people that are what is important.

Hey, this is going to take some time for you to figure out. And this is not easy because the whole family is going to be affected by this.

All you can do right now is take a big time out and continue to go get therapy and take it a little at a time knowing that any therapist is not going to just jump up with a complete solution for you immediately. There is a lot of peices that have to be examined here before you can truely see the forest through the trees.

Open Eyes

Bow, we are your support group. not hers. lol!

Tell her to get her own group: really great people who are working really hard, trying to make their way, through a million and one issues, while supporting and propping each other up, along the way to freedom.

PS, if you aren't happy with your T/P, go get another one. There are PLENTY out there. Find the one that's right for you and that you have good chemistry with. Otherwise, you are going to be fighting yourself to feel better.

"Getting hit and kicked and bitten has gotten very old, but I draw the line at allowing her to stab me."

(and he shows his sense of humor) Keep up the (hard) good work...inch by inch.