Is it OK for a 45 year old man to date a 20-year-old woman?

It looks like you have a daughter or daughters. Suppose that your daughter dates a mature, well-connected, well-read, well-traveled, patient, caring, considerate gentleman with a refined aesthetic taste who introduces her to his hand-picked social circle, acts as a catalyst of her quickly becoming more sophisticated than she otherwise would be at her age, exposes her to a wide range of experiences that she would not be able to have with an age peer, shares whatever wisdom he has accumulated from making his own mistakes in the past and possibly even helps her avoid making similar mistakes, and does all of that graciously and , without any remnants of adolescent angst or penchant for overly dramatic behaviors... still not good enough for your daughter?

Or, say, she dates a pathetic loser who by age 50 has not really accomplished anything and who latches on to her in a frantic effort to feel better about himself... would your reaction to this kind of a scenario and the scenario above be identical? Or, say, your daughter dates an older man who is a heroine addict and your daughter, god forbid, becomes interested in using heroine via associating with this guy... still same reaction? I highly doubt that. Isn't who the person is that matters, ultimately, and not the person's age?

I googled something related to this subject and came across this page:

The Double Standard Regarding Age Difference In Relationships - The Blackdragon Blog

I have never seen so much truth on one page. I can't speak for everything else on the site, because I haven't read it, but everything he says on that page is SPOT ON.

very weird. Maybe a new thing?

In general, it is weird to assume that the younger party is being taken advantage of. The younger party might, among other things, be taking advantage of the older party's status in society. This goes for both genders. Note that taking advantage of a partner's status is not equivalent to taking advantage of the partner himself or herself.

And saying that an older man is shallow for dating younger women is equivalent to saying that younger women do not have depth and interesting quirkiness to them, so it is actually devaluing younger women to say that. Not protecting but devaluing. The exact opposite.

HB: You are right about having a daughter. and in your scenarios, it makes no difference. -- i'd still want the older, well-read, well-meaning (arguably) dude to keep his older hands to himself (and to his generation) and away from my daughter (or son).

Shadix: I know you find it hard to believe, but you won't be able to convince me... it's part of who I am, and gender has nothing to do with it. I'd feel the same even of a same-sex couple with such a deep age divide.

Five years ago, the 45yo had a prostate exam.
Five years ago, the 20yo was studying to get a driver's permit.

Actually, I know it's probably impossible to convince you. That's because your point of view is based on emotional prejudice. You cannot use logic to convince someone to FEEL differently about something. Much in the same way you cannot convince a 45 year old man to not FEEL attracted to a hot 20 year old girl.

Personally, I don't believe for a second that you have these same feelings towards a woman who dates a much younger man. Of course you will say that you do, because otherwise, your argument will lose all credibility. But I imagine that if you heard about a 45 year old woman hooking up with a 20 year old guy, it would not fill you with the same anger that you apparently feel when you hear about a man with a younger women. And you are not alone in this. Most people who condemn men for dating younger women do not have any problem with the reverse scenario. When they condemn women for dating younger men, it is half-assed, like in politics when a person condemns an extremist from their own ideology. It is just a ritual they perform to keep their credibility. There is no real outrage like there is when they are condemning something they actually oppose.

Well now isn't that up to the individual, the 20 yr old to decide whether it's right for her and not you or the rest of society? Really quite honestly what's fair and what's not fair, who's to say? Let's say this 20 yr old finds another 20 yr old, would there not be challenges involved there and burdens that come with all relationships? it's a matter of choosing what burdens you choose to take on and whether the partner you choose is worth all of it.

As an older partner, choosing a younger woman (or man) has it's unique burdens too, but isn't that also up to the individual person to decide and not for outsiders to say whether it's fair to him or her to get into the relationship?

If you're a 50 yr old and you feel you shouldn't date anyone in their 20s or whatever age range you want to limit yourself to, that's perfectly fair for you but the problem arises in generalizing your rules for yourself and making them as deFacto rules for others. Don't date younger women, your rules and restrictions are yours. Would it be fair for me to tell you that it's not right for you to date someone that is say, your age? Should I tell you that you SHOULD date younger women? no because by the same token it's not for me to say.

If two people care about each other and are willing to take on the challenges that the relationship might bring, that is all that matters outside of someone dating someone illegally young.

An older woman having sex with a younger man is less natural based on bringing children into the world, more so if she's over 50.

I think that article summed it up. Jealous older women and bitter men envious of the guy with a younger woman on his arms. It's completely natural for an older man to want a younger woman, however I would be a sceptical of the motives of say a 20 year old woman dating a 75 year old multimillionaire entrepreneur.

True but I would be skeptical of any woman dating a 75 yr old multimillionaire regardless of her age.

I would say the whole bringing children into the world thing is irrelevant. This is the 21st century, people date for reasons other than procreation.

This is the 21st century? That doesn't change our natural instincts, which is why men are attracted to younger women. A designed calender system doesn't change that.

Shadix: Maybe one day you'll come to understand WHY a man, over 45, can look at a 20yo girl and see nothing but a child. -- btw, you had to at least assume not EVERYONE would agree with your position, so, i'm not understanding why you are on the defensive.

Wooops.... hold on a second, I NEVER EVER said i wanted to impose a rule on others. -- I am merely defending my right to be disgusted with the scenario presented in the original polling question: A 45yo man dating a 20yo.

That's what you say, that you're only defending your right to be disgusted with it but in truth your judgement of others in this situation is in and of itself applying a personal value of your own and saying everyone should abide by it. By saying it's disgusting is a judgement and by principle that is stating that this is something that everyone should follow.

Seriously? 1. there are plenty of people who go through life without kids, and although I have them, I have known many friends in the same age group tht choose not to have children and wth does that have to do with it? So if someone has kids it makes it inappropriate for a younger person to date them? What about kids makes that inappropriate? Again, this is a personal choice and I think you're being narrow visioned in this way.

So only people that are older have baggage? Everyone has it whether mid life, young adult or elderly. That's a moot point because if you want to avoid baggage altogether from other people, you better avoid relationships completely.

Arthritis, really? WTF world do you live in where age = developing arthritis at all? And why is it even an issue? There are plenty of people in all age groups with health problems of all sorts. Age has very little to do with it. I'm 45+ but I have no signs of arthritis. I may develop it at some point but that's not related to my age but the fact that my mother had it and I believe it's hereditary. God I sure hope that having it at some point would not eliminate me from being "date-able" >.<

Again, being fair about burdening a younger person with any kinds of problems whether physically or baggage related is soemthing that is universal. Relationships in nature carry the burdens of the partner regardless of what they are. Again if someone wants to avoid the burdens of another person sstay out of relationships altogether.

You can't say that. That may be or not be but has nothing to do with age. Being an older person than your partner carries no more power than being of the same age group. Nor do I believe this generalized stereotype is a fair one. it assumes that there is no other motivation for a person to date a person younger than them. As if there is no other reason they would be attracted to them. Of course it may be the case at times but I also would counter that with the fact that there are plenty of males (typically) that would seek to dominate a partner, of any age that dont' necessarily go for women younger than them but just submissive ones or who they perceive as such.

To your credit, everything you're saying, I will agree are considerations for someone to get into a relationship with a large age gap. Going blindly into a relationship of this type would be silly and these things definitely should be weighed and considered before doing it. In the end though, if they both understand the differences, it is up to the couple whether those things are worth dealing with in the relationship. There is no hard and fast rule to anything that you've mentioned, it's all just your perception that does not take into consideration the individuals involved in the relationship but assumes too many things.

If a 20 year old is a child, then why is it perfectly ok with society when they have sex with their same-age peers? Last I checked, children should not be having sex at all. And why do we have 20 year olds in the military? Do we really want children defending our country?

What I also find ironic is how in the older man younger woman scenario, people are insistent on the idea that these 20 year old women are children, but then when we have a situation where a 20 year old commits a serious crime, particularly when it's a male committing a crime against a female, these same people want to see the 20 year old prosecuted to the full extent of the law as an adult and scoff at the idea of showing them leniency because of their immaturity.

A 20 year old woman can be a responsible mother, a startup founder, a voter, a officer in the military, a nurse assistant in acute care, a graduate student if she started college early or a college dropout if she decided to try traveling the late Steve Jobs' path, probably a driver of a commercial vehicle, but cannot legally buy alcohol. This is far more absurd than what you are noticing, Shadix. You are talking about people's perceptions and prejudices. You can show a middle finger to people's perceptions and prejudices, and you should, and, those prejudices affect you only a bit. Likewise, a 20 year old woman does not need to care about what people think of her dating choices - she is free to ignore irrelevant input from 3rd parties. That she cannot LEGALLY buy a cocktail is far worse, but this inability is legal, and thus "hard". There is a hard limit on this which is broken all the time but it still exists and legal consequences do happen to some people, just not to most. In general, when there is a hard problem (the alcohol issue which is beyond absurd since 15 year olds are allowed to drive on highways but not drink in any sort of setting or company), it should be solved before proceeding to solving "soft" problems. The problem you are talking about is "soft" - perceptions, reputation, public opinion, prejudice are soft on an individual level. On corporate levels, public opinion can be viewed as a hard asset of the company and reputational harm can be viewed as a hard liability, but in the private situations you are talking about, this is all soft. Yes, the things you are observing and noticing are ironic, irrational, and curious, and your observations of the asymmetry of this whole layout are spot on, but it does not change the fact that this is a soft issue and you personally should not be concerned with what somebody might say about your dating choices. You are in your late 20s and women in their early 20s are essentially your age peers.

Larry - the example with 6-1=5 and 96-91=5 too was posted in an effort to preempt "a 45 year old was a 40 year old 5 years ago but a 20 year old was only 15 years ago".

At the very least, a 20 year old was 15 years old when she was 25% younger than her current age, and a 45 year old was 36 years old when he was 25% younger than his current age. That, at the very least. Not comparing 15 with 40 but 15 with 36. In reality, even that is not a fair comparison because human growth is highly non-linear. A 45 year old is an adult with the full suite of legal rights and responsibilities. 5 years ago he was also an adult with the full suite of legal rights and responsibilities. No drastic changes in his legal status have occurred in the past 5 years. His skeleton has remained largely the same, probably with some minor bone loss.

A 20 year old is an adult with an incomplete suite of legal rights and virtually a complete suite of legal responsibilities (this asymmetry was partially noted by Shadix on this thread). 5 years ago a 20 year old was an adolescent with limited rights and responsibilities. That in Texas a 15 year old can get a driving permit is an artifact of the vastness of the state. A Texan 15 year old is likely much less sophisticated than a Parisian 15 year old, and yet, in Paris there is good public transit and a 15 year old is unlikely to need to drive a car (plus, by American standards it is impossible to park a car in Paris so there is no point in having one...). So in the last 5 years a 45 year old has been slowly maturing, growing, aging a bit etc - he is on a continuous, smooth growth segment of his aging curve. A 20 year old had a completely different status 5 years ago. For a 20 year old, the last 5 years were a growth spike and not a continuous smooth and slow maturation. And a 6 year old who can read was a 1 year old who probably could not even speak at 1. So in the last 5 years a 45 year old has changed a bit, a 20 year old has changed a lot, and a 6 year old has changed tremendously. This is because human growth is not linear. It is highly non-linear. Also, some people do not hit puberty until 16-17, so a 20 year old who is now capable of reproduction might have been prepubescent 5 years ago - again, the growth is not at all a straight line.

To sum it up and make it clear - 5 years ago, a 3 year old had not even been conceived yet and a 93 year old elderly person was a 88 year old elderly person.

HB: That's a bit too much math and geography for this middle age dude!!! (that was a joke)
-- Seriously, all those things you mentioned a 20yo could be "a mother, a startup founder, a voter, a officer in the military, a nurse assistant..." 100% true. And, I respect the HELL out of all them 20yo mothers, military members and startup founders... -- But, for me to look at her as a 'potential' date or more, well, I just can't see it.

Hey yumeikui, I find a lot of things disgusting... Escargot for example, it doesn't mean that I want others to stop eating it. But if someone invites me for a Snail Casserole... expect me to say "No thank you".

Also, I used "arthritis" more as a synonym or a catch-all for any and all of the other crap that comes with middle age (for MOST people -- not ALL of course, but most) -

It's funny, I actually came across a news article recently about an 18 year old guy who drop kicked a woman from behind and robbed her and it turned out the woman was holding a baby(luckily the baby and the woman were ok). Anyways, the article referred to the attacker as a teen, and someone posted a comment saying how at 18 he's not a teen but a man who can vote and enlist in the army. I replied saying "If this was a story about a 40 year old man dating an 18 year old woman, everyone would be saying 'she's just a kid!'" My reply got 14 thumbs down and only 1 thumbs up. One of the other commenters replied to me saying "And so, what's your point?" In other words, he's saying yeah it's true but there's nothing wrong with that. The reason they are hating on my comment is not because it isn't true, but because I'm suggesting there is something wrong with the double standard.

To sum it up, according to society 18 year olds are old enough to not be shown leniency when they commit crimes, but not old enough to date a 30+ year old and some nujobs will even say 25+.

The hypocrisy keeps getting more and more obvious by the day.

I just read about this new movie coming out called The Boy Next Door, which stars Jennifer Lopez as a 40something woman who gets cheated on by her husband and then gets seduced by an UNDERAGE boy and has sex with him. Then she ends up rejecting him and he ends up being the villain while she is the victim.

Can you imagine a movie where a guy who has sex with an underage girl and is portrayed as anything other than an evil predator?

I am having to deal with this right now. My ex is 50, his gf is 25, I am 45. My ex an I have children 10 yrs younger, same age, 3 yrs, and 4 yrs younger than the gf. I am having to deal with the gf living in our house, and she is a major trigger for me. I have borderline personality disorder. None of the 6 daughters approve and no longer talk to him and he doesn't care. It is supposed to be family first, and he doesn't care. It really pisses me off. I can't stand to see, hear, and be around her.

Larry, if you have daughters, you probably at least at some level feel certain attraction to them (this is entirely normal and one of the historical reasons that you and I are talking on here, but since you disliked math and geography, offering you history of the study of psychology now would be way too imposing if not outright rude on my part ) and try to suppress those feelings because of the taboos associated with them. For you to look at a 20 year old as a potential date would challenge and threaten the suppression that you have built up in your mind. At least this is usually what happens when fathers or grandfathers talk about 20 year old women as children - they are trying to suppress uncomfortable feelings. So has been my experience, and I can tell you that this kind of thing can be very damaging to the daughters or granddaughters of such over-protective fathers or grandfathers. If this rings true, I can elaborate, but if it does not ring true, then please accept my apologies for making unfounded assumptions about you and your relationships with your daughters.

It is supposed to be family first cuts the other way, too.

That you resent the gf is perfectly normal, but that the daughters no longer talk to the dad means that they are violating the rule of "family first" and they are old enough to be more responsible. But, it could be that they are violating this rule out of care and compassion for you, and deep down want to talk to their father. I think the living arrangement is from hell, and would wear down on a mentally well person, but for you with borderline this is outright the very polar opposite of what the dr ordered. I am sure the gf and your ex do not enjoy this arrangement either. What can be done to split up and live in separate households? Is it purely a money issue?

I think that your daughters - you have several of them over age 20 so they can definitely make money and pay bills - are misguided in their attempt to side with you and protect you. Their protectiveness could be expressed far more productively and effectively if they tried to help financially so that you would not live in the same household with the ex and his gf. What they are doing by not talking to their dad is just paying lip service to your predicament; they should instead problem-solve and help you get out of this situation in purely economic terms. And then, out of sight, out of mind.

In other words, the daughters' not talking to the dad does not help you, does not help them, hurts the dad, and possibly hurts them. Why is this a good approach then?

Looking at it from a different angle - why is ex burdening his borderline ex wife with this living arrangement from hell? Why isn't he renting a place for him and his gf to live as a couple and away from you? The gf is 25 and can get a job to help pay the rent too. why is it not happening?

Somebody here - not you, but ex, the daughters, and his new gf - need to rethink their ways and actually make your life BETTER.

Note that I only meant adult daughters who can hold down jobs. I did not imply that the daughters who are 15 are doing anything wrong.

What does "nujobs" mean? searching on google could not help me find out.

Older daughters are all out of house and live in different towns. Their viewpoint is age. This isn't the first time that ex has had younger gfs and none of those ended well. I agree gf should get job. Ex has been injured on job a while back ago and got a lawyer last yr. It's been a long difficult road.