[SlowlyISigh]

It's me again. I realize my posts here have been sporadic, but I've been trying my best to cope with my issues without constant venting. Sometimes, things that I don't really have any solution for get too heavy and I can't take it anymore. One of those things being...why are women put in such a low place in this world? Some men say that women get all the breaks, even having the audacity to say that if you're hot your problems are apparently negated. This just makes me so sick, and I'm so tired of hearing this ignorant rhetoric. The comments I hear that are respectful are few and far between. And that's another thing. You say just one thing about one guy in particular, or something about men in general that seems to be a truth, INSTANT whining and immature name calling because they're so butt hurt, yet it's okay for them to say ANYTHING and everything about women and we're just supposed to take it. Even my aunt gives me the bleak outlook that men are horny beasts who can't control themselves from staring at women and who don't care about satisfying you sexually or emotionally. Oh, and that they need and want so much more respect than they give us.

Granted, my experience with guys has been limited to encounters online and what I've seen in my own family life. But it still seems far too common, and I'm sick of it. I'm sick of being made out to be a bad person by men and women alike just because I point out my observations. It makes me just want to be a boy, but of course I'm criticized for that too. So basically, I've said all of this to ask: what pride is there in being a woman when you're constantly put down and squeezed into a tiny section of life where you belong, your appearance is scrutinized to the T while a man can be homely and unclean and still find love that will furthermore justify his raunchy habits? Why do some women still stand for this? Why should I have to worry about what men think I should do, that I basically either get to be myself or I get to have a boyfriend, but not both? And seriously, just how many people are really this ignorant? I haven't been in the world so I wouldn't know, and right now I don't want to be. I don't want to waste my time with anyone who has nothing better to do than ramble on about repetitive stereotypes and put others down to inflate the ego they don't deserve to have. My self esteem issues will likely never work themselves out if I can't even be proud or comfortable in my own female body.

[Travelinglady]

I don't understand why women are so demeaned either. I would hate to see a world without us.

I am sorry you have gotten such a negative view of men. Yes, some of them are like you say, but there are some decent ones out there who treat women with love and respect.

[bridgie]

i personally am always used as just a body. it doesnt make me feel great either for myself or for men. like you men are constantly putting women down and i see it. its terrible.

[Onward2wards]

((( SlowlyISigh ))) you raised a lot of very good points, and I agree with you (I am male, btw). There are a lot of totally damaging extreme stereotypes out there which I think are harmful to both men and women.

I am sick of the "overbearing emotionless hyperachiever" stereotype among men, for example, which is sometimes held up as a good thing. Why can't we show emotion, collaborate as much as we compete, and have some kind of balance in our lives? This is healthy and yet some men and women alike seem to think it's "weak" somehow, to a degree which I find ludicrous. I suspect that like many persistent exaggerated points of view it's just a coverup for insecurities that somehow became "acceptable". I'm not the only male who feels this way, by far. It's about time we all worked to root out the excesses of this "battle of the sexes" garbage and grew out of it, imo. Truth probably lies somewhere between all the extremes.

btw women being demeaned seriously makes me physically ill, to say nothing of pretty angry at this point.

[wife22]

We live in a society, where ,in spite of all the talk about woman liberation,man are viewed as powerful,goal oriented and tough ones,which is far from reality and causes some man to acquire "macho" attitude just to cover up emotional needs.On the other hand woman are perceived as weak,indecisive, capable of only "feelings" ,but not working on problem constructively. Unfortunately we are emotionally corrupted society,where acceptance of "weakness" or needs is demeaning(especially for men),so we created false standards to disguise the insecurities ,that standards are further creating more emotional problems and barriers to solve them.We lost ability to openly communicate due to fear of rejection and dismissal,we pretend to be strong with no proper emotional support. If we only could be frank and truthful to each other ,see and accept the fact that we are just humans with confused feelings,we may get over many of emotional burdens and fears,we might even become better, more self confident and finally,find our way to true happiness.
It is appalling to me ,that some women and men alike are demeaned for something everyone is struggling with.....

[SlowlyISigh]

Thank you everyone for your responses...I really needed them, especially tonight. I had also talked to a friend about this and she assured me that the world isn't always as extreme as it seems on the Internet and in the eyes of certain people I'm around, but then, I had a certain conversation with my aunt this evening. It was fine until she started talking about men and their "warrior spirit", how being cocky and even arrogant is just fine, and how women should just sit down and be women. Um, SHE'S a woman. I don't see how that could even come out of her mouth. It made me feel so terribl about myself I just cried for a few minutes. I've said it and I'll say it again, EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. I'm so tired of this narrow minded bullcrap she spouts I could just explode, but apparently she's from the older generation so she's got everything figured out. That's how she herself is anyway, I know not every older person is like that, though if I put everyone in the same narrow boxes like she does I guess I'd think differently, wouldn't I? It just...statements like that mess me up so much, because I get angry at women who are like are, who'll just perpetuate that stereotype, and mad at men because I assume they walk around thinking they're better than me. My aunt acts like men have every right to be the way they are, but she never says anything in my defense when I talk about the wrong things that some men say about women, saying "that's just the way they are." It really makes me feel hopeless and so low sometimes, like I should just shut up and go to the kitchen, so comments like yours, Onwards, really lift me up. Thank you. It's good to know that there's at least some hope...and deep down, I do know that not everyone's like that. But like I said, I've hardly been in the real world at all. It's a scary place, and I guess I always pay the most attention to the negative because that always seems to be the most prevalent and what we always get. I guess I can only hope for the best, and that one day we'll wise up and learn to see people for who they are individually, and that we're all just human beings trying to survive. We shouldn't have to put on airs and put others down to be accepted, because life is so much more beautiful without that. I've seen it myself, I just wish others could.

[hamster-bamster]

You need to expand your social circle beyond your aunt. You say you do not like stereotyping but are doing stereotyping yourself. The world is complex and you will hopefully see it when you start talking with more people, men and women.

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

I am sick of the "overbearing emotionless hyperachiever" stereotype among men, for example, which is sometimes held up as a good thing. Why can't we show emotion, collaborate as much as we compete, and have some kind of balance in our lives? This is healthy and yet some men and women alike seem to think it's "weak" somehow, to a degree which I find ludicrous. I suspect that like many persistent exaggerated points of view it's just a coverup for insecurities that somehow became "acceptable". I'm not the only male who feels this way, by far. It's about time we all worked to root out the excesses of this "battle of the sexes" garbage and grew out of it, imo. Truth probably lies somewhere between all the extremes.

Well said - totally agree.

Women are demeaned in some ways, and over-exalted in others.

But then I would find being over-exalted demeaning too . . .

Some women deserve to be demeaned, men get demeaned too. Women are never happy and always have something to winge about. Some women like to be demeaned, it arouses them. I like women who don't buy into the whole feminism thing and do as they wish, they are the best kind, the ones who like to be degraded and humiliated in a loving relationship as a fetish, now I adore that.

[cdnomore]

No body deserves to be demeaned. The world is too full of all sorts to point a finger at one or the other and say its not fair.
Its too easy to blame, but the real test of courage is what you decide to do about it, if you don't want to be a demeaned woman take the high road and act with character, let your actions speak for themselves. Stand on your own two feet and think for yourself. This doesn't mean that you can't have a man in your life, it means that the kind of man you choose will more likely respect the woman that you are, and be strong enough to be those things for himself without bringing you down.
It takes a long time to be that kind of woman, and society and even other women will have you beleive that you have to lower your standards and values in order to be more 'likeable', but you don't.
Just try not to give into the lower thinking...you already know better, thats why you are resisting...learn more about what that means to you, and become that independant, valuable, but loveable woman and you'll like yourself.

[eskielover]

I NEVER have been made to feel that way as a woman.....I know it's out there but I have also seen the women who end up demeaned have walked into it without the training or maybe even the desire to be equal.

I was an only child who grew up in a neighborhood of mostly guys.....so the kids I played with were mostly guys & to be quite honest.....the playing that girls did was just plain BORING....dolls & house....they had no concept of anything other than that......while I was outside playing cowboys, street baseball & football. I was always their equal if not better in school with grades....& we always seemed to compete on equal footing & I was always treated as one of the guys. The girls I found that weren't treated with respect were usually ones who they couldn't relate to or couldn't relate to them.

I was one of the only ones in my family to get a degree & it ended up taking me into a computer design firmware engineering career where I was basically the only woman & I was accepted & treated as one of them continuously throughout my 15 year career. I did fight my H when he would say things or do things I felt put me down.....but I had my life plans & had stated them & told him that NOTHING was going to get in my way.....& it didn't....yes, we had our fights. My family willingly supported me even though his didn't think a wife should have a career.....but basically I just blew them off & went on to do what I knew was right for me & it had NO effect on the direction of my life.

I had a manager once tell me I should wear dresses at my review.....I didn't make any comments & I didn't listen to him either....just blew him off & continued to work & function successfully without making a scene about what he said as making a scene out of would have attracted attention & I would have caused trouble which I didn't need to do as the same thing was solved by just blowing him off.....PICK YOUR BATTLES....ONES THAT REALLY are needed to make a difference.

Had another contractor who tried to hit on me....again.....I hold onto my values......married & I don't have relationships outside of marriage.....it's my values that also kept myself from getting into demeaning situations. They can hit you, but if you don't play into them & deflect them.....they don't get to the point of harm.

All the guys I worked with respected me for who I was & what I was & I was their equal.......even to the point of playing really wonderfully hard games of racquettball with them at lunch....& when I beat them......they were just as kind as when they won.......& I ended up in first place in a lot of the men's racquettball tournaments.

I think we earn our place of respect vs our place of being demeaned.

Sadly, I think for a long time women were raised to believe that all they were good for was being a sexual partner for a man & created no other values in their lives....right there to me was a very demeaning role that I refused to ever get trapped into....but that's just theory on my part & probably has a lot of holes in it.

Sorry if I upset anyone here............. but I find this topic/post to be total CRAP.

Are there some people who treat other people poorly?? Of course. EVERYONE experiences that. If you are a man or a woman, black or white, tall/short/fat/skinny, rich or poor.

Sorry - but your post is crap. If an INDIVIDUAL treats you like crap - then attack the individual - not 1/2 the population.

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

((( SlowlyISigh ))) you raised a lot of very good points, and I agree with you (I am male, btw). There are a lot of totally damaging extreme stereotypes out there which I think are harmful to both men and women.

I am sick of the "overbearing emotionless hyperachiever" stereotype among men, for example, which is sometimes held up as a good thing. Why can't we show emotion, collaborate as much as we compete, and have some kind of balance in our lives? This is healthy and yet some men and women alike seem to think it's "weak" somehow, to a degree which I find ludicrous. I suspect that like many persistent exaggerated points of view it's just a coverup for insecurities that somehow became "acceptable". I'm not the only male who feels this way, by far. It's about time we all worked to root out the excesses of this "battle of the sexes" garbage and grew out of it, imo. Truth probably lies somewhere between all the extremes.

btw women being demeaned seriously makes me physically ill, to say nothing of pretty angry at this point.

a real man shows emotions. A real man needs not to "over achieve" to find self worth and a real man cares for his wife or SO does not Lord over her. Period. it's just that the over achievers and the stereotypes are the loud ones.

[Webgoji]

Is it safe to go on the threads again ...

[elevatedsoul]

sorry you are having a hard time SlowlyISigh

[tufan]

The internet certainly does make it seem that way. It appears that woman haters are a dime a dozen in the crevices of the net. However, there are women that really hate men too. Everything has a balance, and if it doesn't, nature tends to make one. I think our ascent from a might-makes-right primate species to a more technological one is relevant. Then again, there are peaceful matriarchal primates. In real life, I never witness the scathing remarks from either side like I see online. I guess we get to let the mask slip a little from the safety of relative anonymity. A lot of folks just vent in crude ways. I think most of us (men and women) hate to see anyone treated badly and seek to be good to people. Just think about all the good folks out there. It is kind of hard when the worst of humanity is routinely featured on streaming news from around the world.

Hoping you have a brighter day.

[HourHand]

Hey, I like this post it is NOT CRAP and you have every right to your opinion. THANK YOU for posting it.

That said, I will give you mine. I've been around a while now, half a century. I am a woman, two marriages, worked in male dominated industries for some of it. Love outside work and inside work, the drudge stuff and the creative stuff.

My take on me is this. My dad was an emotional dud. Nothing from him, ever. So what did I do? Marry just the same type, screwed up, pathological, users. Just great. One was macho and this last one is a cry baby. I think men are a lot better kept at arms length and not a bit closer.

I have found they generally have a much, much higher opinion of themselves than of anyone else in the whole universe. Bad trait.

I have found that if they cannot use you for sex, or money, then they have no use for you. Bad trait.

I have found that they want you to do their share as well as your own. Bad trait.

I have found that they lie. Bad trait.

These things are what I've been up against in my lifetime of trying to find love and a satisfying relationship. I now have a kitten and a separate bedroom and am much happier than I have ever been.

I hope your own life and search goes much better. Please do take everyone on an individual basis but please don't be like me and trust people. I used to be a very naive woman, but men....

Thanks for the post!
HourHand

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by eskielover

I NEVER have been made to feel that way as a woman.....I know it's out there but I have also seen the women who end up demeaned have walked into it without the training or maybe even the desire to be equal.
[B]I was an only child who grew up in a neighborhood of mostly guys.....so the kids I played with were mostly guys & to be quite honest[/B

I was always their equal if not better in school with grades....& we always seemed to compete on equal footing & I was always treated as one of the guys. The girls I found that weren't treated with respect were usually ones who they couldn't relate to or couldn't relate to them.

I was one of the only ones in my family to get a degree

I think we earn our place of respect vs our place of being demeaned.

Sadly, I think for a long time women were raised to believe that all they were good for was being a sexual partner for a man & created no other values in their lives....right there to me was a very demeaning role that I refused to ever get trapped into....but that's just theory on my part & probably has a lot of holes in it.

Ditto.

There's plenty of places in society, where women are not demeaned. In fact, there's plenty of examples, too many to even pinpoint just one nor to list, where women are held in high esteem and respect.

Eskie, raises a valid point.

[Jan1212]

Um yeah that comment about how people like to be demeaned made no sense. I think you meant a different word.

You have more control than you think. You do have a choice to act a certain way. Don't do what people [your aunt] expect you to do "as a woman" ie: be quiet and accept unacceptable behavior, never blame yourself. It's true that the internet has tons of "you belong in the kitchen" or "go make me a sandwich" It's stupid, don't take it personally. I also hate the saying "boys will be boys" like they have an excuse to act out. Men are responsible for their unacceptable behavior and actions as well, if you feel like anyone is disrespecting you, speak up

Originally Posted by tufan

The internet certainly does make it seem that way. It appears that woman haters are a dime a dozen in the crevices of the net. However, there are women that really hate men too

The media hates men. There are plenty of books, articles and TV shows that take obvious delight in the notion that men might not be as smart, mature or even relevant, as women are. It's just annoying.

[eskielover]

Um yeah that comment about how people like to be demeaned made no sense. I think you meant a different word.

Was this the quote you were refering to?

I have also seen the women who end up demeaned have walked into it without the training or maybe even the desire to be equal.

If so....I said the desire to be equal....not the desire to be demeaned.....there are a lot of women who are brought up who don't want to be equal....they want men to do the things for them that end up putting them into a demeaning situation....it's not that they want to be demeaned....but certain guys see that lack of equality & react in a demeaning way.

I even did that with my own mother when I was growing up......I saw other kids with mothers who worked & were able to volunteer & were active in the community. Even the other mothers who didn't work at least volunteered & did other things...where my mother didn't drive, she stayed home but all she did was take care of a little 1000 sq ft home & cook for my father. She wasn't able to help me much with school work because even though she had graduated from High School, she never took the level of classes that I was in.....honestly I could NEVER relate to my own mother.....& it was very difficult not to feel a demeaning attitude toward her.....I looked at her as JUST A HOUSEWIFE.....something I swore I would NEVER BE.

[inneedy]

Well, I think it's because that's the way nature works. Men have run the world for thousand of years and society is geared to suit them. And as for the appearance being scrutinized thing I was giving this alot of thought recently and I have come to a conclusion. Some will think that it's quite caveman but it's based on what I think is in our nature. Our brains are hardwired to look for certain things in a sexual partner. Women look for a guy who can provide security for her and her child, as well as good looking but mens bodies are designed for survival. Whereas a woman simply bring her body to the table, yes she has to be generally kind so she nutures your child in a motherly way but her body is designed to reproduce and so this is pretty much the key component for a man and this is why a womans appearence is scrutinized. As far as our conscious minds go that's a different story, but this is how I believe we as animals are born to think, regardless of social conventions.

[pamj533]

Originally Posted by DylanP

Some women deserve to be demeaned, men get demeaned too. Women are never happy and always have something to winge about. Some women like to be demeaned, it arouses them. I like women who don't buy into the whole feminism thing and do as they wish, they are the best kind, the ones who like to be degraded and humiliated in a loving relationship as a fetish, now I adore that.

DylanP.no person wants or needs (man or woman) to be demeaned.A animal does not deserve that.it just be me.but if a woman (or man) likes to be treated this way.they may have to look back in their lives.and ask why.i think alot of answers would be..they have been abused in someway in their life.verbal,physical or sexual.it matbe exciting to you and someothers.But do you ever ask yourself "WHY".if u need to talk.i will listen.not trying to down you.I feel u are angry and sad.Im so sorry.pamj533

[Iamwho]

Women are sometimes brainwashed slaves. We shop, cook, clean, act as sex objects, bare and care for babies and are personal assistants for men ( husbands, fathers, brothers, uncles, friends etc.). Women can also be submissive to other women.
There are probably some men (much fewer than women) in submissive roles.
Maybe women's collective behavior can change the stereotypical thinking?
I want to stand up for myself and what is fair for all life.