[nevertheless002]

Hello,

I would like to post a question:"When You cherish someone close to You and You try to help him, because You dont want to see him suffer. How do You achieve trully altruistic attitude - meaning You do it only for that person!?"

Ok, so there is a person. You have strong feelings for this person, You have close relationship and You would like this person to be in peaceful state, happy state.
You try to help this person. You bear in mind only the tought of this person, smiling and at peace - innerly.
I was wondering, how could I ask myself good questions to find out, if I am doing it for my good feelings or if I am doing for the person I love?

Thank You

I think you have to ask if the "help" you're offering is something that your loved one wants. It's hard if they don't want to do something that YOU think they should do. I wouldn't be too pushy. If you can help somehow anonymously, like buying them a newspaper and leaving it at the door, knowing that they wanted the newspaper but couldn't get out to get it themselves, then I think that is definitely something you've done FOR them and not for yourself.

If you take your loved one to the store as a favor and then keep reminding them that you did it and tell all your friends that you took Jane to the store, then you are doing it for YOURSELF and looking for people to say how wonderful you are because you took Jane to the store. Then again, Jane really needed your help and you were there for her so if your ego needs that much stroking I'd say to do it anyway because the alternative is that Jane would never get to that store without you.

You may deserve some recognition for a good deed (and that's ok to an extent) but usually you know when the act is really for the other person and when you are just doing it for the applause.

[nevertheless002]

I think, I see what You explained to me. It is surely truthful, offering help to someone is always best only in form that fits what they would welcome/ see as help.
I like the idea that You point out - that there are some gestures that can be done truly for others.
The example with store showed me what would not be my goal, gladly. I seem to be unfit for this category.
Thank You for Your comment, although it has been some time already.

I was also wondering about one more thing. Let's say I am insecure about myself, my value, my worth, what if I would be doing help for others in such way, that by achieving it and by bringing a bit of sunshine into their lives I would confirm my worth, my existence. Is that a big mistake, when trying to offer someone help? I was wondering about my own... I dont know... or another scenario something like hidden narcisstic goal. or whatever, I dont know what to call it... lets say the person, to whom giving a helping hand is my intention, doesnt recognize my effort, does not seem to accept help, for what reasons I dont know... What if then by actually achieving the unrecognized act of helping this person poses for me... some sort of grandious feeling, to defeat or to overpower... I wonder but that wouldnt change the fact, that this person would be happy now, no?

I wonder, I know I am not doing my best to practice my attitude, but even if my feelings were monstrous manipulative bi**ches, the person would still be happy no?

I've read that if trying to offer someone help, You can come to a point, where the others don't want to, cannot, arent "capable" of accepting this help and that at this spot, You need to validate this person's autonomy and let him face their challenges as their own. Otherwise, doing anything, instead of that person, would lead to them not overcoming this obstacle anyhow.
But can I refuse to give up my intention...? I mean, I am not going to be pushy, I am not going to Make them, manipulate them into accepting the help. I am just going to preserve myself and my mind, my acts in a state that has the intention of helping this person, without any regard to whether it helps or not. Can I accept their being in "now and here"
, as not accepting of my help? Can I accept them as not being able to help themselves, Can I accept them without any demand for change? Just expressing my hope and wish for them to be happy and stay like that, simultaneously not harming the independence of their soul?

There is a saying I came to see on these forums
"We're all just walking each other home."

Is it in good order if I stay along the path at some point and wait alongside this person to make next step towards their home? Accepting the possiblity of them not making a further step? Just being there "stuck" with them ?

This is an interesting idea and one that I frequently have with a friend of mine. I believe that there IS such a thing as true altruism, but it's quite rare. The usual reason we perform most acts of kindness is because, to varying degrees, it feels good to us.

True altruism, in my opinion, stems from instinct.

Philosophy aside, I think sympathy is one of the most important traits in people. I find that many, MANY people here are empathetic to one another's difficulties. More so than those without any mental illness. Of course that is just my own observation from being here

You CAN help someone else who is able and willing to accept your help. But that's where it ends because we are humans and have free will. We can decide to decline help.

[kim_johnson]

Where is this coming from? Have other people accused you of 'helping' in order to manipulate, or have you been wondering about your motives?

There is a big literature on altruism... Whether there is any such thing, or whether every altruistic act is really a selfish act... Especially... The idea of the selfish gene... Or the idea of the 'feel good' buzz that we get from acts of supposed altruism.

I think... That literature largely stems from egotistical boys. Economists, often. Business people.

Anyway...

Maybe the answer is... Both. So... Love... Is partly about finding a person whose interests are in alignment with yours. So... Things can be done to serve you both. I think that mothers, particularly, are familiar with how proud and happy they can feel when they see their children do little things like... Kick a goal and be all excited about that... The parents can basically... Share the happy feeling. I think there is something about it... Shared. Not altruistic or egotistical but... Both. A... Meeting of minds. A meeting of minds in a good place, if that makes sense. Instead of... Condolances. Which isn't so pleasant as peace.

[Fabulous]

A meeting of the minds. I like that thought.

[kim_johnson]

Yeah... Empathy... Is... About objectivity. Like if you were truly an alien looking down and of all the people... You didn't know which one of them you were...

Fairness...

All tied up in stuff like that. So.. Minds... Reason.... Rationality. Yeah. But also... Empathy. Shared emotion. Taking pleasure in another's pleasure. Sharing pain when another is in pain. Wanting the other to be... Happy. Taking pleasure. Not solely for the other but for onself as well. Because... You love them. You partake with them. You share their cognitive state or you... Meet them half way in your love. So... Feeling pleasure with them and willing them pleasure and positive feelings not just for you but for them as well...

I am on the Autistic Spectrum so... Perhaps have a distorted / odd view... But this is what bonding means for me. That's why it is so special. To be treasured. Why you don't want to... Throw yourself at just any old thing... Save yourself for someone worthy... They help you be a better person and you help them to be...

Originally Posted by nevertheless002

.....I was also wondering about one more thing. Let's say I am insecure about myself, my value, my worth, what if I would be doing help for others in such way, that by achieving it and by bringing a bit of sunshine into their lives I would confirm my worth, my existence.

I see nothing wrong with that. What's that saying "giving is receiving?" You give out of the goodness of your heart and in helping the other person you feel a satisfaction that you did something good. Your self worth is bolstered.

Originally Posted by nevertheless002

.... lets say the person, to whom giving a helping hand is my intention, doesnt recognize my effort, does not seem to accept help, for what reasons I dont know...

Then you are NOT helping them you may even be hurting them. You should stop. If you are feeling good about overpowering/defeating someone that is sad and you need some T help with that. It is not a good feeling to be run over.

Originally Posted by nevertheless002

I wonder, I know I am not doing my best to practice my attitude, but even if my feelings were monstrous manipulative bi**ches, the person would still be happy no?

I don't see how.

Originally Posted by nevertheless002

You can come to a point where the others don't want to, cannot, arent "capable" of accepting this help and that at this spot, You need to validate this person's autonomy and let him face their challenges as their own.... I am just going to preserve myself and my mind, my acts in a state that has the intention of helping this person, without any regard to whether it helps or not....Can I accept them as not being able to help themselves, Can I accept them without any demand for change? Just expressing my hope and wish for them to be happy and stay like that, simultaneously not harming the independence of their soul?

Yes you can accept someone, even if they are "stuck" somewhere and do not accept your suggestions/help. I say this because I have had similar experiences with friends. But not just any friend. These are people I love. If love is not in the mix and your offer to help is refused you just walk away. Don't feel bad you did something nice for someone.

My situation was that I loved a friend who refused to hear my suggestions. It wasn't what she wanted for herself. I let her be, it's her life right? I never stopped loving her or being her friend. There is no one else like her and we understand one another very well. She has attributes that far surpass whatever help she refuses from me. She is worth holding onto and being there for her. Of course there are many times I have to say "I gotta go now" because I can't hear any more of it. The situation is dire and between my problems and hers sometimes we need a break of a day or two. Then it's right back to supporting one another in this messed up world. That is what it is for me but my ways of approaching things are not necessarily right for You or anyone else.

[avlady]

i don't see anything wrong with helping another. you are giving of yourself and that is a good thing. if someone doesn't want your help although i would just let it be.

[kim_johnson]

yes. most of the hurts in my life... have come from people who were determined that they were helping me. but they weren't helping me. they were only helping themself.

i think they were driven by their own need... for whatever reason... they weren't able to be appropriately responsive to me. to see how what they were doing was affecting me. they couldn't tell that they were hurting me. they weren't empathetic toward me at all, if they were properly empathetic they would have got that i was in pain. because of what they were doing...

i think that sometimes our own pain / need can blind us a bit to what is going on for another. sometimes... we just can't see... we aren't able to act in another's interest. we can only act from our own need.

i feel sad that i think most of the world is like that.

but i'm coming to learn that... everyone has their quirks / weaknesses / flaws. i surely do... friendships... you can learn to be resilient with people, a bit. lots of people helps share a load. i know i've needed more than my fair share of the caring / attention during some points in my life... it helps me to pay it forward when i'm able... but it also helps everyone... when i realize i'm at my limits sometimes / not in the position to help other people / when i finally have the power to shut myself away from the world and do what i need to do for me to recharge...

[nevertheless002]

Thank You all guys. Simmering, sophiesmom, kim_johnson, Super, avlady.
I appreciate Your thoughts, all of them. They mix in me very much. The process of facing this topic is for me really important and such help from Your side makes things a lot better for me, of course I have read them all.
Sending Gratitude Your Way!