[REN85]

I recently got engaged to a wonderful woman. We don't fight and get along excellently and both love rash other deeply. She lives with her sister. Throughout the entire course of time I've been with this woman I've witnessed her sister run over her and act with outright malice toward her out of jealousy and spite. To name a couple instances: 1)we got to her house to discover her sister had shoved a ton of garbage bags full of clothes and junk into my fiance's car. My fiance put the bags in their garage so she could use her car. Her sister comes home and called her a "stupid f****** idiot." 2) there have been a few times when my fiance was out of town in vacation and I would call her after I got off work in the evenings. Her sister would yell at her to get off the phone as if she had something to do the next day. 3) my fiance evidently didn't clean a pot to her sister's standards so she hid the pot in her room until their mom came to visit upon which she pulled it out to make my fiance look incompetent. 4)my fiance asked her nicely to close the blinds in the kitchen which her sister was literally a couple feet away from. Her sister stood there and rudely says "no" and walks to her room.

These are just a couple instances of the things I've seen. It should be of note that these are 31 year old women. now despite seeing all this I have TOLERATED her sister and hung around with her for dinner and whatnot. Now to the real issue. My fiance is upset at the fact that i only tolerate her sister. She makes it a dealbreaker that I'm not close with her sister. By her own admission OUR relationship cannot be any better. But she can't marry someone who isn't friends with her sister. She can't understand that I have a hard time liking someone that goes out of their way to treat her like crap and I'm someone that gets along with almost everyone.

Just looking to see what others might have to say. As I said, I have tolerated and been amicable with her sister, but I will not say I'm close with her.

[ChipperMonkey]

Denial. Serious denial.

Perhaps coupled with low self esteem.

And even the "blood is thicker than water" saying.

Essentially your fiancé is telling you that you MUST like someone who treats her like a dog. If you truly love someone, why would you have an ounce of respect for another who treats them worse than a dog!?!?!

I wonder why your fiancé puts up with such crap?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that her sisters got something mental going on. Maybe your fiancé has a bit of that bonding with abusers syndrome that sometimes happens?

Either way, this is a very messed up situation. I suggest therapy. She's essentially putting the blame on you for a failed relationship with her sister when it's not your fault!

[Trippin2.0]

I would be upset with my bf if he was besties with a family member of mine that treated me like that.


Your fiance should get her head out of her butt. You don't like people simply because they're family, they have to earn it.


My opinion, yes, her expectation of you is unreasonable. The fact that you're respectful and tolerant is more than enough.

[avlady]

i agree with everyone here, i myself would have that be a dealbreaker of staying with this person if they are treating them badly. like someone said, it makes us wonder why she lets it happen. her sister may have alot of issues mentally too.

[JustJenny]

Hi there,

just wondering - was it recently when her sister started acting like that? If that is the case, I think she might be jealous that you and your fiancée have found eachother and are about to get married. She might be perceiving your steady relationship as a personal loss:
1. Her sister found somebody to start a family with, meaning that she has to move from the center of her sisters life into the periphery. She might feel that she will become less important.
2. She will be living alone now, which can be scary. Her life will be different.

You have to talk to your fiancée about these things. Explain her your concerns. Starting a family is not easy, you will have things to disagree about just for the fact that you grew up in different places and you were taught differently.

I am saying all of this because I went through a similar situation: my mother didn't take it well when I started dating in my mid-twenties. She would try to affect our relationship by saying things like "he will use you and dump you" and "this is just temporary, you will soon find someone else". That was very hurtful at that time because our feeling towards eachother were real. It got a little better when we got engaged and now that we're married she's not talking like that anymore.

Another possible option is that your soon-to-be sister in law is just plain mean. In that case you might have to outsmart her.

[Bill3]

Are they twins?

What does your fiancee say about the incidents you described?

[Permacultural]

Sounds like a very unhealthy, enmeshed, and codependent situation. Are you sure you and your fiance can't move in with just you and her to get some distance from the jealous sister?

[REN85]

She claims it doesn't bother her, but that doesn't change the fact that I cannot bring myself to like someone that treats the woman I love like she is less than dirt. My fiance is benevolent and absolutely the sweetest person I know and I cannot stand seeing someone put her down. She admittedly does suffer from low self esteem and that is part of why I get so upset about all of it. I can't understand how she is upset about lacking confidence, but then she lets herself get treated that way. It has taken me a great deal of restraint to not go off on her sister. This is the worst experience of my life. I love this woman more than I ever imagined loving anyone and I've cherished her to the best of my abilities.

she says her sister claimed she wants to be friends with who my fiance marries..I asked my fiance if she's told her sister why I don't consider her as friendly and her sister apparently said I need to get over out because that's how it has been. Umm so because she's been a callous *expletive* for however long it makes it okay and I should like her regardless? She should always be cruel toward her twin sister because she never developed past the adolescent stage?

[Bill3]

It is interesting that you both want the same thing for each other: you want to see a change in feeling towards the sister. That is something to remember when you feel that your fiancee is being unreasonably intrusive or asking too much of you.

Sisters, especially twin sisters, are often close. So when you attack the sister, or reject the sister, it feels to your fiancee that you are also attacking or rejecting part of her (your fiancee).

What would your fiancee need to see to conclude that you like her sister "enough"? In other words, how will she know when you are "there"?

With regard to your fiancee's self-esteem: in my opinion you must remember that you are her lover and not her therapist. Your job is to accept and love her as she is. Does she see a therapist? If so, that could be helpful and you can certainly encourage that. But your fiancee's relationship with her sister ultimately is up to your fiancee, not to you.

You said that your relationship with her sister is a dealbreaker for your fiancee. How much of a dealbreaker is it for you?

From what I read, it's not clear to me if you spoke to your fiancé about how the nasty treatment she gets from her twin makes you feel.

You cannot force yourself to like or accept the sister, and your fiancé must accept that that's how you feel.

And also, what Bill3 said:

Originally Posted by Bill3

With regard to your fiancee's self-esteem: in my opinion you must remember that you are her lover and not her therapist. Your job is to accept and love her as she is. Does she see a therapist? If so, that could be helpful and you can certainly encourage that. But your fiancee's relationship with her sister ultimately is up to your fiancee, not to you.

You said that your relationship with her sister is a dealbreaker for your fiancee. How much of a dealbreaker is it for you?

You cannot also change this situation by yourself. That's between the two of them, they need to sort themselves out. That's their family business, best not to interfere with that or soon there might be even the parents joining in on the fight and you'll end up caught in the crossfire.

Best of luck to you!

[TishaBuv]

It's time to set the ground rules. You can tell your fiancé and her sister that you won't sit there and listen to the language and behavior, so if they act like that, they can't do it in front of you AND you will not tolerate being treated like that either ('cause you know you're next!).

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

It's time to set the ground rules. You can tell your fiancé and her sister that you won't sit there and listen to the language and behavior, so if they act like that, they can't do it in front of you AND you will not tolerate being treated like that either ('cause you know you're next!).

P.s. Thank you for being a gentleman!

[REN85]

I don't expect her to do anything about the way her sister treats her. It just confuses me that she realizes having low self esteem and lack of confidence in herself is an issue for her, but she won't even stand up and tell her sister that she'll talk on the phone if she feels like it. I don't know what she expects from me as far as my relationship with her sister. I have said pretty much what everyone has said about it being hard to respect someone that is callous and mean to someone I love when it is not warranted at all let alone like them enough to consider them a friend. Their older brother has a saying that "it's her world and everyone else is paying rent. "

The whole thing is too much for me to wrap my head around. She has always said how I'm everything she's been praying for for all this time and that I love her perfectly and for who she is. So to have her crying and depressed because she doesn't know what to do because she wants who she marries to be friends with her sister crushes me.I've never heard of someone giving up true love and a great relationship over the fact that the person doesn't get along with their sibling, etc.

[Bill3]

Does she/would she see a therapist?

[REN85]

She has gone a couple times and has a third appointment this week

[divine1966]

Why does she live with her sister? What's the reason for them living together at age 31???? My brother is very nice but if we lived together it would get old fast. I never lived with any relatives (except my daughter when she was minor and romantic partner/husband). What's this arrangement about?

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[Bill3]

It's good that she is seeing a therapist. I expect patience will be useful while she makes progress in therapy.

[REN85]

Well the thing is we are not really together at the moment. I'm hoping she realizes how unrealistic she is being and quits jeopardizing the great thing we have. I have never fought this kind of depression in my life. The woman means the world to me and I know we'll have an excellent life if she would quit worrying about managing my relationship with others and quit needing approval from others before feeling confident in her choices (The other big issue going on).

[Bill3]

What happened such that you are not together?

[divine1966]

Is engagement broken? You said on 23rd you recently got engaged and your relationship is great, getting along etc I am confused. Are you not engaged?

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[REN85]

OUR relationship is great. This is where we stand exactly. We got engaged earlier this year. We started paperwork on a little newer vehicle than we birth currently have. She was telling her parents about it in casual conversation. Her dad was less excited and decided to drive down here from a couple hours away when I was at work and freaked out about it and she changed her mind. I came out of work to see her crying and that's when I found out about what happened. I got angry because I hate seeing her upset for one thing, but more because of him undermining me and me becoming insignificant in a decision that had nothing to do with him. This guy has never treated me like he's cared for me despite me being good to his daughter. Anyway, I was upset and she told them as much.

They said they would come and explain to me, but I was not in the mood to hear it and I was called cowardly because I didn't want to talk...I heard this as it was said and that's when I grabbed the phone and said, heated, that we're both 30 and make good money and don't need them butting into our decisions especially behind my back and that I don't appreciate being insulted. For my fiance's sake I drove to their house a couple days later to smooth things over, but instead her dad was too interested in talking to me like a child about money which was not why I was there. Then he started in about how I was disrespectful and shouldn't talk to adults like I did on the phone which I'm still confused about.

They never apologized about demoralizing me about the vehicle and her mom was reluctant to admit to calling me a coward and then didn't apologize after anyway. This was 2 weeks before an already paid for vacation where we stayed with them for a week in a condo. A week before we got there he called my fiance and told her we weren't welcome the second half of the trip. She got off the phone devastated and started crying again. Fast forward to the trip and I felt tense and uncomfortable being around them and isolated myself at times. This made my fiance stressed and takes us to where we are now a couple months after the trip. Upon getting back from the trip she started going off on me about how she can't marry someone that doesn't get along with her parents which took me aback because I was being blamed for the situation somehow. Emotions and exhaustion from jet lag and a 15 hour flight overnight led to a hasty decision to cut it off. The next day we cried on each other.

We still talk and see each other, but she's torn and depressed about what to do because she's in love with me, but is afraid there will be strife between her family and me. I just want both of us to be treated right by her parents and her sister. we are at the point where she admits her parents were mostly at fault, but she's still saying she wants me to be able to get along with them and she brings up the fact that i don't have the warmest relationship with her sister (The reason for this Thad). She says she has a hard time doing anything her parents don't approve of which seems ridiculous as she's an adult and unfair because they did the legwork to create this situation.

She has been talking to one of my best friends apparently trying to figure out what she should do. It kills me because I know we will have a great marriage as things between us can't get much better except for this. I feel like she needs to get out of the mentality that she has to do what the family expects of her because she knows and says what they did was wrong.

That was a long write up, I know, and I don't mean to make it sound like I do no wrong because I'll be the first one to say I'm not perfect, but I feel like I'm being supremely cheated out of the thing I've lined forward to more than anything I've wanted. To spend life with the person I love more than anything.

[ChipperMonkey]

This is how it will be until your fiancé decides to grow up and cut the apron strings.

[divine1966]

Oh you are the same guy who has meddling future in-laws. I remember that story. But now there is evil twin sister who treats her bad? They all sound difficult and she is too dependent on them plus you don't get along with none of them. Sorry but this is doomed before it even started. As much as it hurts i would suggest to leave her. I know it hurts but I don't see this getting better. Sorry

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[Bill3]

Does she have any other siblings?

My suggestion is that you read up on enmeshment in a family therapy book or online.

The family is overly involved in each other and they rely on each other inordinately for support. You must understand that Prince Charming himself could come along and the family would be against him. Therefore, you must not take anything that they do to you personally. They would be uncomfortable with any and all suitors, not just you. It feels personal, but it isn't personal.

If she stays in therapy and the therapist is competent she will get guidance on breaking away from the enmeshed family and establishing a healthy distance. This will take time. In the mean time, you must not give the family ammunition by unreasonably refusing to speak to people, by losing your temper, by criticizing them. You must overlook it when they don't apologize to you. Is she worth enough to you to not fight them back? Is she worth enough to you to not insist on you being right and them being wrong?

You might want to see a therapist yourself for help in learning how to deal with them, with not taking things personally, and with not losing your temper.

Don't get me wrong: you can become a completely model citizen and they still won't like you. They are not going to like you. Again, it isn't personal, they just don't want their enmeshed family disrupted--and you are the current potential disruptor. But the sweeter and more reasonable and more patient and more forgiving and more even tempered you are, the easier it will be for her to break away from them enough to join with you. The more you get involved in arguments with her parents or sister, the harder it will be for her to join with you.

Remember: this feels personal but really it is not personal. They will find reasons to oppose any guy that comes along. Your job is to be as loving to her as you can, to entice her away, and to be as patient and even-tempered with them as you can possibly manage (work on this), so as to minimize her stress in breaking away from them sufficiently so as to join with you.

Just remember this every time before you speak or act: every time you engage acrimoniously with them, you are driving her away. Every time you are patient and civil with them, you are bringing her closer.

[REN85]

She has a brother that is a couple years older who I really like. He is always very nice to her and plays around with her. He has a similar sense of humor as me. He's very easy going and calls her sister on her BS and knows how their dad is.