[ScientiaOmnisEst]

I think I've spoken a few times about my own...interpersonal dysfunction. I'm nigh incapable of forming close, caring, loving, lasting connections with other human beings. I push people away reflexively and have since childhood.

Nonetheless, I'm lonely, at least occasionally. It seems to be getting worse, and at times I find myself online, desperate for some sort of contact, usually when my mind is overloading and I want someone to talk to.

But this is about something else: partially a stressor from listening to people smarter than myself. Human romantic relationships are, according to others, nature's way of ensuring reproduction. That's all they are. And this disgusts me - I see this attitude so much and it repulses me. If that's really all love is, nothing more than a ploy for sex, with the pointless goal of "carrying on the species" I want no part of it. Yet thinking about this just makes me sad. I could never admit this is more sophisticated circles without being dismissed as illogical and overly emotional; but I'm lonely dammit, and I want to feel those higher, nobler emotions. Truly caring for someone else, wanting to see them happy, to feel total calm and happiness when you're with them. It exists, I've seen it in others. If love is nothing but sex, though, and none of this has any other value...I don't know what to do there.

I have a small theory of my own, that human relationships, due to our more complex consciousness and general capacity to overcome natural barriers, are not purely reproductive. There's also an element of social bonding, of safety and security - I think that's far closer to the mental state we label "love" than just any pragmatic desire to procreate. There's totally a reproductive element, you'd be delusional to think otherwise, but I can't bear to believe that's all it is. Perhaps I think this as someone with rather confused sexuality: I find I've been less afraid of sexual things lately, though the gorier details still squick me out. Yet, consciously, it's so secondary when I do feel attracted to someone. It's confusing, actually terrifying, to think that I actually must want to do something I don't consciously want to do because biology. I can perceive attractiveness, I'm not asexual, but sexual anything tends to be secondary. Or if it isn't, it doesn't mean anything - "Oh, he's cute" *goes on with day*. I suppose this is why the idea that love is nothing more, in reality, than the desire to pass on one's genes, seems so disgusting and so confusing.

And I know there are others who experience this, or something close.

This is probably another one of my insane rants. Can you get banned for making too many obnoxious threads?

[Skeezyks]

Hello ScientiaOmnisEst: There was a movie quite a few years ago now titled: "L.A. Story" There's a line in the movie, spoken by actor Steve Martin, that goes something like: a kiss may not be the truth... but it is what we wish were true...

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

I have a small theory of my own, that human relationships, due to our more complex consciousness and general capacity to overcome natural barriers, are not purely reproductive. There's also an element of social bonding, of safety and security -

I like this theory.

Sent from my LGMS631 using Tapatalk

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

I'm nigh incapable of forming close, caring, loving, lasting connections with other human beings. Me too, but I find the effort and the admittedly very limited success sufficiently rewarding to keep trying.

Interesting!! I think we need to distinguish between the different levels of the topic. At the bottom, and from an evolutionary point of view, the ultimate goal is to preserve species through procreation. However, evolution via natural selection has built rewards at higher levels in animals, including us, to do this.

Different than other animals, except possibly for bonobos (our closest relative in the evolutionary tree beside chimps), we humans have sex not just for procreation. We have sex anytime we want. Other animals do it only at specific times of the year, or at specific times of the month as in chimps, because it is solely for procreation.

So, sex is more than just for procreation in humans (and bonobos to a lesser extent), it is for social bonding as you mentioned, which is also necessary for the survival of species. For example, it was observed that in bonobos, sex is used as a way to diffuse a conflict. We use something like this "make up sex". Also, females have emotional attachment because their brains are designed to care for their offspring.

Now because we have large brains, and we are self-conscious, these emotions and capacities have been extended way beyond their original purposes. Something like math, our brains weren't designed to understand math and quantum physics, but out large brains are capable of doing them.

But this doesn't degrade the meaning and existence of love. It is a fact that we humans love each others, regardless of the underlying processes and purposes. It is beautiful, and many great artistic works have been done in its name. Actually one can argue that love is the most powerful tool humans have.

A question to contemplate on: can you imaging a romantic relationship without sex?

[lavendersage]

You're not obnoxious, first of all.

It was a good post and I support and agree with your theory.

Unfortunately, I seem to be in a very lonely and isolated patch in my life yet again so I'm not exercising any effort to live the theory.

Thanks for posting it.

[Trippin2.0]

Asexuals have relationships too, maybe that's something you could consider.


Doesn't mean there's no attraction, just no sexual element.


Like you can find beauty in someone or something, without wanting to get naked with it.

@OP: Also something to consider is the fact that emotional intensity in relationships and marriages fades away with time. Why?

The following is a long lecture for Dr. Robert Sapolsky about sexual behavior, but you can just listen to the summary of what he is going to say in details and pertaining to your concern at ~ minutes 6-9.

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Came back to this thread to reply to things and to let out another frustration I remembered after spending time time reading psych articles.

Replies:

I can totally imagine a relationship without sex (not without touch though. Cuddling or kissing isn't as sexual as, well, sex, not to me at least.... though I wonder if I would like those, even). I guess I still wonder what's the big deal. Also, asexuals and relationships is something I considered. Someone who doesn't experience sexual attraction shouldn't be able to experience love of love is just a reproductive urge. But that isn't the case.

My little "theory" mostly just comes from observation. In actual, lasting human relationships there's always more than just sexual attraction. The partners feel understood, or like the other is their best friend. They share thoughts and experiences - they bond, basically. Also, I have a hard time believing that sexiness can actually hold a relationship together for years. The thing about emotional intensity fading - you're referring to the honeymoon period, right? After that, I understood the relationship "settles" in a way, into a quieter kind of bonding.

Vent:
Inherent narcissism. Everyone is more concerned with themselves. No one truly cares about you, no one wants to hear about your life. But everyone also wants to feel heard and known and cared for. Another huge confusion, another frustrating impasse. I want, desperately, to be heard and cared about, but any attention anyone else gives me is just fake, socially dictated tolerance. Worse, I absolutely recognize this in myself and it disgusts me. I hate how self-absorbed I am and wish I could genuinely care about the thoughts and feelings and lives of others. I have an awful habit of either using people as receptacles for my feelings, as sources of feedback, or ignoring them. I hate this about myself because it feels freakish, even monstrous. But everyone is the exact same way and that's just horrifying.

This refers to friends as well as romantic partners.

It seems you are more to vent in this thread, and I understand that, but I just wanted to say friendship isn't as intense as romantic love. In principle sex is for social bonding and procreation, which both are necessary for species survival. So, I think your theory is true. I suspect though most people would accept a romantic relationship without sex. But I think we humans now in a stage that evolution has no control over us because of our large brains, because how then can you explain monks and hermits?! As professor Paul Bloom a psychology professor at Yale university says: genes don't mean necessity any more.

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

...
Vent:
Inherent narcissism. Everyone is more concerned with themselves. No one truly cares about you, no one wants to hear about your life. But everyone also wants to feel heard and known and cared for. Another huge confusion, another frustrating impasse. I want, desperately, to be heard and cared about, but any attention anyone else gives me is just fake, socially dictated tolerance. Worse, I absolutely recognize this in myself and it disgusts me. I hate how self-absorbed I am and wish I could genuinely care about the thoughts and feelings and lives of others. I have an awful habit of either using people as receptacles for my feelings, as sources of feedback, or ignoring them. I hate this about myself because it feels freakish, even monstrous. But everyone is the exact same way and that's just horrifying.

This refers to friends as well as romantic partners.

Have you thought that may be this is your perception only? I am sure people care, you just need to initiate and be available. Humans usually reciprocate kindness. Humans are not intrinsically kind for no reason or reward as if they were gods or angels. You recognize that you are self-absorbed. Start from that.

[Fuzzybear]

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Originally Posted by Nickname

Have you thought that may be this is your perception only? I am sure people care, you just need to initiate and be available. Humans usually reciprocate kindness. Humans are not intrinsically kind for no reason or reward as if they were gods or angels. You recognize that you are self-absorbed. Start from that.

Actually, I found the "people are naturally narcissistic" thing from others. And it makes sense, I just only think about it when it suits me (as in "why would they harass me, they're probably preoccupied with their own things to care that I'm here"). When thinking about it in terms of friendship or romantic relationships, it becomes much more depressing.

Maybe part of it's projection. I'm really bad at being available. I'm almost always available, really, I just don't want to be bothered. I see no benefit. I'm lonely until someone tries to talk to me, then I want to run away and be a hermit. Yeah, it makes no sense.

Was thinking about the "sexual marketplace" concept today, another depressingly stressful iteration of this whole business.

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

Actually, I found the "people are naturally narcissistic" thing from others. And it makes sense, I just only think about it when it suits me (as in "why would they harass me, they're probably preoccupied with their own things to care that I'm here"). When thinking about it in terms of friendship or romantic relationships, it becomes much more depressing.

Maybe part of it's projection. I'm really bad at being available. I'm almost always available, really, I just don't want to be bothered. I see no benefit**. I'm lonely until someone tries to talk to me, then I want to run away and be a hermit. Yeah, it makes no sense.

Was thinking about the "sexual marketplace" concept today, another depressingly stressful iteration of this whole business.

OMG, you are just like me, feel alone/lonely and yet run away from others. I don't even make myself available. The story of my life. Hello!! I don't think about the meaning of sex as much, though. May be because of my gender, I don't know.

I agree with you, people are "narcissistic" in essence, in the sense that they are absorbed in themselves, and they approach you as much as they can find value for themselves in the relationship with you. Sad fact but true. Even what we call love, isn't pure. There is a narcissistic element into it. That is why I think humans invented the concept of divine love, as in Christianity. There is a complete book by Elder Porphyrios called "Wounded by Love" speaking about divine love.

I think all humans' relationships, in principle, are relationships with mutual benefits. Even people who try to help others, they don't do it for others as much as for themselves (at least equally), because it feels good at the moment or because of reputation and social image. But I think all can benefit from that.

At the end, whether we like or not, this life is a game with its own rules. If you want to participate, you have to obey the rules, if not you cannot play. I have difficulties accepting both, that is why I am suffering day and night to be part of life. I wish I can just accept my loneliness and devout my time to something else, like something intellectual, and forget all about relationships, because it drains my energy. But at the moment, I cannot. In the future? May be.

**What do you mean by you "see no benefit"? What are the exact thoughts triggered in your head in such situations?