Why women are attracted to creeps...

Here's an interesting article that just popped up on the MSN homepage...It's a little long, but good for thought!
Patty

I have no idea whom to blame for the romantic mythology surrounding brooding, emotionally limited, narcissistic yahoos. I’m tempted to chalk it up to movies, where most men who start out as selfish jerks are eventually revealed to be wounded birds of some sort. Or it might be the uglier side of the therapy culture, which tempts you with the idea that these jerks might be amenable to solution, like crossword puzzles.

For whatever reason, there are a surprising number of women who are attracted to guys who can’t commit, who can’t relate, who can’t get along with anyone, who can’t tell the truth… these guys get a lot of action.

It’s not that women really want jerks, exactly. I think it’s a matter of mistaking emotional clutter for emotional complexity. Here’s an analogy: Imagine a messy apartment. You walk in, you survey your surroundings, and there’s an incredible quantity of stuff lying around. Books in tall stacks, Chinese food containers in the corners, DVDs in and out of boxes scattered around the TV… the place is in chaos. And while you wouldn’t really want to live there, there might be some part of you that would look around and grudgingly admit, “There’s a lot going on here.” Now, imagine the same apartment, once somebody has managed to get it cleaned up. The books are on the shelves, the trash is thrown away, the DVDs are alphabetized. This is a much nicer place to live. But it’s a little… you know, boring. And that’s in spite of the fact that the same books are being read, the same food is being eaten, and the same DVDs are being watched. You’re just in the presence of a person who knows how to clean up after himself.

I think that for a lot of women, guys in turmoil seem strangely fascinating, as if they are, by definition, more interesting than everyone else. There’s more of that clutter, so there’s more going on, and there’s more to sink your teeth into, and there’s maybe even more emotional depth to such a person.

Let me tell you something about the guys I know who are emotionally mature. The ranks of the healthy and rational include plenty of guys who have been in rehab, or been divorced, or seen their parents’ marriages end horribly, or had their own dreams thwarted in some ugly way—all the things that creeps are fond of waving around as explanations for why they lie or cheat on you or generally continue to be creeps.

The difference is that the healthy and rational people have at least undertaken the process of digesting all of that stuff and placing it in some sort of perspective so that it doesn’t have to become your problem. They know from suffering, just as much as the ones who sit around brooding into their beers and writing free verse and dragging everyone else into their little theater of agony. The sane ones are still working on their crap, too—who isn’t? The difference is that they’re not fetishizing their own misery or asking you to embrace it. And that’s a benefit to you, because the only thing you can guarantee yourself about that kind of hair-pulling drama is that if you cuddle up next to it, it’ll get on you.

You’re going to get plenty of emotional complications from anyone. Even people who have their lives very well pulled together are going to give you lots of opportunities to practice patience and understanding. There’s no point in starting out with someone who isn’t even trying.

Evan
According to Linda, many intelligent women prefer men with emotional complexities, even if it means that he can be verbally abusive, inaccessible, and generally loonier than Courtney Love on a bender. Now, I can’t speak for all men, but while I may have tolerated similar behavior, I can’t say I’ve ever preferred it. Any time I found myself dating a woman who was an emotional roller-coaster, the only reasons I stuck with her were because a) I was lonely and her presence in my life helped to fill a void or b) I was getting the best sex of my life. Lame, but true.

Put another way: Could you ever picture a man saying out loud, “There’s something that’s just so mysterious about her. Sometimes I look in her eyes and I feel like she totally understands me, and other times, I have no idea what she’s thinking. She runs really hot and cold but I can’t get enough of her. I think I’m going to stick around until I can crack her shell. One day she’ll learn to be more emotionally available and loving.” Tolerance for female ambivalence is not a stereotypically male attribute.

This isn’t at all to castigate women, as much as it is to acknowledge that women see more nuance in every scenario, so it’s no surprise that they give undeserving men the benefit of the doubt. But what for? Hasn’t every woman since the beginning of time had a thing for jerks and realized at some point that jerks were always going to be jerks?

I was the nice guy in high school who enjoyed being friends with cute girls who wouldn’t go out with me in a million years. I figured, “If that’s as close as I can get, I’ll take it. Maybe one day they’ll realize what I’m worth.” I would listen to boy problems galore — essentially, nice girls being treated badly by jerks — and not once did any of these girls ever say: “Hmm, Evan’s a great guy with a really kick-*** mullet. I’ll bet he’d be a wonderful boyfriend.”

But it’s not simply the rejection of the nice guy that’s keeping so many women single. It’s the acceptance of the screwed-up guy. Because screwed-up guys draw screwed-up women into a whole Misery Loves Company episode of Love Connection—where both parties are brought together not by the audience but by their insecurities and inadequacies.

All that “You can’t love anyone until you love yourself” stuff? So true. And if you’re choosing to date guys with major issues, you’re just as guilty as he is. Yes, everybody’s got issues, but not necessarily deal-breaker-type issues. Which is why women often say they’re seeking men who can fit their baggage in a carry-on. Unfortunately, there are lot of men who try to sneak a 75-pound trunk onto the plane and protest that it has wheels so it’s technically a carry-on. Women with issues are the ones who choose these guys.

Women who have their act together simply don’t have the patience. Admittedly, there are a few people who probably enjoy the histrionics and the moods and the make-up sex that come with dating drama kings and queens. But I’d bet that most are just willing to tolerate the drama, because, thus far, that drama comes attached to the “best” person they could find. Essentially, they’re saying, “Yeah, he’s inconsistent, selfish, and distant, but he’s all mine.” Just realize that every second you’re spending with the wrong guy is a second that you’re not out looking for the right one — the guy who gives, the guy who listens, the guy who learns.

Excerpted from WHY YOU’RE STILL SINGLE by Evan Marc Katz and Linda Holmes. Reprinted by arrangement with Plume, a member of Penguin Group (USA), Inc. Copyright (c) Evan Marc Katz and Linda Holmes, 2006.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article courtesy of Happen magazine, www.happenmag.com.

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Responses after the usual symbol "////"

I have no idea whom to blame for the romantic mythology surrounding brooding, emotionally limited, narcissistic yahoos. I’m tempted to chalk it up to movies, where most men who start out as selfish jerks are eventually revealed to be wounded birds of some sort. //// I tend to dislike a lot movies for this reason...yes people can change...but the amount of change protrayed in movies is fairly rare in my opinion...

Or it might be the uglier side of the therapy culture, which tempts you with the idea that these jerks might be amenable to solution, like crossword puzzles. //// didn't follow this

For whatever reason, there are a surprising number of women who are attracted to guys who can’t commit, who can’t relate, who can’t get along with anyone, who can’t tell the truth… these guys get a lot of action. //// agreed

It’s not that women really want jerks, exactly. I think it’s a matter of mistaking emotional clutter for emotional complexity. Here’s an analogy: Imagine a messy apartment. You walk in, you survey your surroundings, and there’s an incredible quantity of stuff lying around. Books in tall stacks, Chinese food containers in the corners, DVDs in and out of boxes scattered around the TV… the place is in chaos. And while you wouldn’t really want to live there, there might be some part of you that would look around and grudgingly admit, “There’s a lot going on here.” Now, imagine the same apartment, once somebody has managed to get it cleaned up. The books are on the shelves, the trash is thrown away, the DVDs are alphabetized. This is a much nicer place to live. But it’s a little… you know, boring. And that’s in spite of the fact that the same books are being read, the same food is being eaten, and the same DVDs are being watched. You’re just in the presence of a person who knows how to clean up after himself. //// I can see that...

I think that for a lot of women, guys in turmoil seem strangely fascinating, as if they are, by definition, more interesting than everyone else. There’s more of that clutter, so there’s more going on, and there’s more to sink your teeth into, and there’s maybe even more emotional depth to such a person. //// still agreeing

Let me tell you something about the guys I know who are emotionally mature. The ranks of the healthy and rational include plenty of guys who have been in rehab, or been divorced, or seen their parents’ marriages end horribly, or had their own dreams thwarted in some ugly way—all the things that creeps are fond of waving around as explanations for why they lie or cheat on you or generally continue to be creeps. //// Iooking forward to the something...

The difference is that the healthy and rational people have at least undertaken the process of digesting all of that stuff and placing it in some sort of perspective so that it doesn’t have to become your problem. They know from suffering, just as much as the ones who sit around brooding into their beers and writing free verse and dragging everyone else into their little theater of agony. The sane ones are still working on their crap, too—who isn’t? The difference is that they’re not fetishizing their own misery or asking you to embrace it. And that’s a benefit to you, because the only thing you can guarantee yourself about that kind of hair-pulling drama is that if you cuddle up next to it, it’ll get on you. //// I agree that there is a significant difference...not sure I would just limit it to these examples...but I'm ok with that...

You’re going to get plenty of emotional complications from anyone. Even people who have their lives very well pulled together are going to give you lots of opportunities to practice patience and understanding. There’s no point in starting out with someone who isn’t even trying. //// Agreed

Evan
According to Linda, many intelligent women prefer men with emotional complexities, even if it means that he can be verbally abusive, inaccessible, and generally loonier than Courtney Love on a bender. //// That's actually very sad

Now, I can’t speak for all men, but while I may have tolerated similar behavior, I can’t say I’ve ever preferred it. Any time I found myself dating a woman who was an emotional roller-coaster, the only reasons I stuck with her were because a) I was lonely and her presence in my life helped to fill a void or b) I was getting the best sex of my life. Lame, but true. //// For me it was the children...but guessing this person isn't married and have children...

Put another way: Could you ever picture a man saying out loud, “There’s something that’s just so mysterious about her. Sometimes I look in her eyes and I feel like she totally understands me, and other times, I have no idea what she’s thinking. She runs really hot and cold but I can’t get enough of her. I think I’m going to stick around until I can crack her shell. One day she’ll learn to be more emotionally available and loving.” Tolerance for female ambivalence is not a stereotypically male attribute. //// hoping female or males would stop thinking this way...

This isn’t at all to castigate women, as much as it is to acknowledge that women see more nuance in every scenario, so it’s no surprise that they give undeserving men the benefit of the doubt. But what for? Hasn’t every woman since the beginning of time had a thing for jerks and realized at some point that jerks were always going to be jerks? //// Good question might be a bit stereotyping...

I was the nice guy in high school who enjoyed being friends with cute girls who wouldn’t go out with me in a million years. I figured, “If that’s as close as I can get, I’ll take it. Maybe one day they’ll realize what I’m worth.” I would listen to boy problems galore — essentially, nice girls being treated badly by jerks — and not once did any of these girls ever say: “Hmm, Evan’s a great guy with a really kick-*** mullet. I’ll bet he’d be a wonderful boyfriend.” //// been there...

But it’s not simply the rejection of the nice guy that’s keeping so many women single. It’s the acceptance of the screwed-up guy. Because screwed-up guys draw screwed-up women into a whole Misery Loves Company episode of Love Connection—where both parties are brought together not by the audience but by their insecurities and inadequacies. //// a percentage probably happen this way...

All that “You can’t love anyone until you love yourself” stuff? So true. And if you’re choosing to date guys with major issues, you’re just as guilty as he is. Yes, everybody’s got issues, but not necessarily deal-breaker-type issues. Which is why women often say they’re seeking men who can fit their baggage in a carry-on. Unfortunately, there are lot of men who try to sneak a 75-pound trunk onto the plane and protest that it has wheels so it’s technically a carry-on. Women with issues are the ones who choose these guys. //// I'm not sure I have a comment on this...

Women who have their act together simply don’t have the patience. Admittedly, there are a few people who probably enjoy the histrionics and the moods and the make-up sex that come with dating drama kings and queens. But I’d bet that most are just willing to tolerate the drama, because, thus far, that drama comes attached to the “best” person they could find. Essentially, they’re saying, “Yeah, he’s inconsistent, selfish, and distant, but he’s all mine.” Just realize that every second you’re spending with the wrong guy is a second that you’re not out looking for the right one — the guy who gives, the guy who listens, the guy who learns. //// I really like that last part...

Excerpted from WHY YOU’RE STILL SINGLE by Evan Marc Katz and Linda Holmes. Reprinted by arrangement with Plume, a member of Penguin Group (USA), Inc. Copyright (c) Evan Marc Katz and Linda Holmes, 2006.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article courtesy of Happen magazine, www.happenmag.com.

MSN needs your opinion!
Tell us what you think

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Thanks, Direction, to your balanced and caring responses to this article. It's good to get the opinion of a healthy male!
Patty

I have a much simpler explanation. Women like men who are good in bed. Creepy, not creepy, doesn't matter.

However, these guys KNOW that they're good, and so they don't settle down. They are good material for fun but not for marriage.

As for the brooders, they've never interested me. I can do enough brooding for both of us, lol.

Good thought, Wants, and so true of many cads....but! a nice fella could be good in bed also!
Patty

I think maybe women become attracted to CREEPS for they (creeps) do not care, therefore, they are fake up front just to get you as the gf or to get you in bed - and then in time, over time, you will learn the truth about them, this man is a CREEP - but by then it is to late you have fallen in love. Ouch!

In my exp, this has been the case, unfortunately...
Patty

This has been my experience Rhapsody. It's the skillfully rehearsed body language, the inuendo, the words with double-meaning, the great sex or the promises made... that all end up being a lie as soon as they "get you" or at the first discordant note (real or imagined).

My first attempt at marriage was to a royal creep! As is usual in the immature woman, we think we can love away their "creepiness," nurture them into being what we want or think they SHOULD be, bring out what little positive we see. Worse still is "if we have a baby, he'll have to change, behave himself, become a good provider, love me back because we made a baby together." BUNK! They are who they are and NOTHING will change them unless somehow, some crisis makes them see that they ARE wrong and need to change. And then, there's those that don't have the courage to change and want YOU to make things happen for them. That doesn't work, either.

I think that despite the advances women have made in the workforce, that a lot of women still operate with the old mentality that sex and love have to go hand in hand -- thanks to brainwashing from a pretty sexist society. We are made to feel guilty if we just want to have sex and then just want the guy to leave. We have to make it into a relationship or at least try to or else we're sluts. Hence we let creeps stay long past their due date. We are not taught to take care of ourselves as young girls. We get praised when we take care of someone else -- hence we grow up to put our own needs last. So some creep's needs trumps our own. Also, we have a limited time to have babies and so, driven by this biological need, we take on a creep as as a potential father to our kids and husband to ourselves when a sperm donor might work better. I think it takes women many years of just experiencing the world and working on ourselves to realize that we matter and that we don't have to settle for anything less than an equal loving relationship. I think that's why women in their forties experience a second lease on life. We get out of that Stockholm Syndrome and stop taking bullsh*t.

Spal...I like what you said!
Patty

Spal...I also like what you have added to this thread...

I believe that women with issues are attracted to men with issues. Period.

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fayerody said:
I believe that women with issues are attracted to men with issues. Period.

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That is every body then - lol.

..... for every human being has issues, some are smaller than others and some are bigger than life.

I'm talking about real creeps. I've met tons of men that weren't creeps and I know men, now, who are perfectly okay. Generalizing that they are all creeps sorta lets women off the hook, don't you think?

I am a creep magnet!
Patty

Fayerody...I can see where you coming from.

I've been a big believer in the fact it takes two and that means the responsibility that comes with choices...

All I've met since my divorce could only be characterized as "creeps!" True...it takes two to tango, but I've met no men of good character since my divorce of 11 years ago. I attribute this now to my overly accommodating nature..too generous and willing to compromise, and to having met these men online thru singles's sites (which I now avoid!).
I realliy thought after the 20 year brother/sister marriage I had that I would finally meet my loving soulmate, and for many years I kept going like a trooper to meet him! For three years now I've abstained from meeting anyone, so insecure about my own judgment. I do not think I'm a fellow creep!...just naive and too giving!
Patty

We go with what's familiar in life. We know the rules of the game. We've played before. It might look different for many reasons, including our tendency to delude ourselves because we have valid wants and needs.

I think it's complex and many-faceted. I think the particular reasons vary and are very personal and individual. An interesting area to explore in therapy.

Can someone define creep for me? I want to give a response...looked in wikipedia and merriam webster and couldn't find a definitive answer.

Thanks,
Dee

I dont envy anyone out there now who is looking for someone...maybe because i got old, but the field looks pretty thin for both sexes from what i see of it. Seeker sometimes when you arent looking is when you find and i hope that is the case for you.

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fayerody said:
Generalizing that they are all creeps sorta lets women off the hook, don't you think?

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Not for sure if this reply was for me, but I am answering as if it was........ My statement was not that of all men are creeps - but that all humans have issues.

I think the very first post answers the question about how to define a creep...though it is different for everyone and comes down to our own interpretation...I'm not sure I like the word...but it fits probably fits most men that would fit what is being described in this thread...

Women can be the same in a lot of ways...I think I've been fairly consistent in adding the flip side demonstrating how comments or articles are more universal and apply to both men and women...as Rhapsody points out...

Ok...so this response is going to end up a little long...I'm going to condense it down as much as possible...

Yes we believe people can change...but the amount of change protrayed in movies is fairly rare in my opinion...women and men alike tend to believe this...most movies though show the man as the "creep" which I personally hate...but that is the reality...

For whatever reason, there are a surprising number of women (and Men) who are attracted to guys (gals) who can’t commit, who can’t relate, who can’t get along with anyone, who can’t tell the truth…

It’s not that women (Men) really want jerks, exactly. I think it’s a matter of mistaking emotional clutter for emotional complexity. Here’s an analogy: Imagine a messy apartment. You walk in, you survey your surroundings, and there’s an incredible quantity of stuff lying around. Books in tall stacks, Chinese food containers in the corners, DVDs in and out of boxes scattered around the TV… the place is in chaos. And while you wouldn’t really want to live there...chopping out some here...my former wife's apartment was a disaster...our home was a disaster in spite of my cleaning...and yes after divorce her place is a disaster.

I think that for a lot of women (men), guys(Gals) in turmoil seem strangely fascinating, as if they are, by definition, more interesting than everyone else. There’s more of that clutter, so there’s more going on, and there’s more to sink your teeth into, and there’s maybe even more emotional depth to such a person....I think men see this as a damsel in distress who needs our help...thinking we can solve all the problems...which we realize we can't

Let me tell you something about the guys I know who are emotionally mature. The ranks of the healthy and rational include plenty of guys who have been in rehab, or been divorced, or seen their parents’ marriages end horribly, or had their own dreams thwarted in some ugly way—all the things that creeps are fond of waving around as explanations for why they lie or cheat on you or generally continue to be creeps. //// yea just insert gals here...no further explanation...

According to Linda, many intelligent women prefer men with emotional complexities, even if it means that he can be verbally abusive, inaccessible, and generally loonier than Courtney Love on a bender. //// My original comment "That's actually very sad"...reason I said that is that I was in a verbally abusive marraige and felt physical threatened...even today I don't like her invading my space...it happens more than what is documented

Now, I can’t speak for all men, but while I may have tolerated similar behavior, I can’t say I’ve ever preferred it. Any time I found myself dating a woman who was an emotional roller-coaster, the only reasons I stuck with her were because a) I was lonely and her presence in my life helped to fill a void or b) I was getting the best sex of my life. Lame, but true. //// Again my original comment "For me it was the children...but guessing this person isn't married and have children...". I think "a" applies to women, but not "b" usually...

Put another way: Could you ever picture a man saying out loud, “There’s something that’s just so mysterious about her. Sometimes I look in her eyes and I feel like she totally understands me, and other times, I have no idea what she’s thinking. She runs really hot and cold but I can’t get enough of her. I think I’m going to stick around until I can crack her shell. One day she’ll learn to be more emotionally available and loving.” Tolerance for female ambivalence is not a stereotypically male attribute. //// my Original comment "hoping female or males would stop thinking this way..."

But it’s not simply the rejection of the nice guy that’s keeping so many women single. It’s the acceptance of the screwed-up guy. Because screwed-up guys draw screwed-up women into a whole Misery Loves Company episode of Love Connection—where both parties are brought together not by the audience but by their insecurities and inadequacies. //// Original comment "a percentage probably happen this way..." Don't have anything to add as it is already balanced...

Women who have their act together simply don’t have the patience. Admittedly, there are a few people who probably enjoy the histrionics and the moods and the make-up sex that come with dating drama kings and queens. But I’d bet that most are just willing to tolerate the drama, because, thus far, that drama comes attached to the “best” person they could find. Essentially, they’re saying, “Yeah, he’s inconsistent, selfish, and distant, but he’s all mine.” Just realize that every second you’re spending with the wrong guy is a second that you’re not out looking for the right one — the guy who gives, the guy who listens, the guy who learns. //// In many ways I thought this way during my marriage...

So ... in my opinion a more balanced look at things...and some ways how one might spot a "Jerk" though I prefer these words...rude, immature, or contemptible person...

i have a dislike of fitting people into boxes all the stuff going round about differences between the sexes imho its just a way to sell books. i had a good chat with a friend who is a psychiatrist about this sort of stuff he agreed with me if you want to find someone 'sorted'go down your local cemetery ,a bit harsh ,but so true, as long as were alive we will have to look at ourseves how we react ,interact a total minefield ,we are far too complicated