The HOW of forgiveness? Anyone know?

Are you sure?

Isn't happiness relative? Yes, when I look at the bird's eye view of my life, I am pretty happy. Day to day? Up and down. But overall? Yes.

Oh! And I liked what you had to say before... I am just mainly an emotional person.. meaning, my emotions lead before my logical mind. It takes a long time for my logical mind to match my emotional mind, if that makes sense!

That's good. It's all that really matters in the end, isn't it?

It is! Though I am still unresolved about the past relationship.

Golden_Eve, this will not be the last time you realize he was doing something behind your back. But answer me this: what does it matter now? He was a bad guy. He did bad things to you. He can no longer do bad things to you. You have moved on and are happy now. So you found out he did something years ago. What does it really matter now that you know exactly who he is? Why is it even a surprise? I'm not chastising you; I'm honestly asking why these things are bothering you? It sounds to me like you haven't moved on, you haven't finished processing the anger and rage. And I think the only way to do that is by dealing with your emotions and yourself and not expecting him to deal with them for you. Emotions don't just go away or stop. Even when you "process" an emotion, all you are doing is learning where it's coming from so you can then act/react appropriately. ANd that may mean to do nothing.

When my therapist was helping me process emotions, specifically anger and anxiety, first she had me explain the physical sensations so I could recognize them and then exert some physical control over my body by breathing or stretching or doing whatever I could to change it from the physical standpoint. Then it was talking about where the emotion was coming from and what I could do to resolve the emotion, whether that was resolving to remind myself that it's done and over or actually taking an action to talk to someone personally who I needed to resolve something with.

I think you need to keep reminding yourself it's done and over. There's likely more stuff he did that you don't know. No reason to even care or be surprised.

I'll give an example: I had to fire someone at the end of 2018. She did not complete any work in the 6 months she worked for. I know that. I knew that. Still, 6 months later I come across assignments or tasks that she had not completed that she was responsible for. I don't get angry at this point. I expect if she was the last person working on it that it's probably nowhere near complete or a crap job done. Because that's what kind of employee she was.

When you run into memories or leftover business of his, expect the behavior he's shown you to expect - lies, deceit, theft, cruelty.

I think the reason this has dredged stuff up for you is because you keep expecting him to realize the error of his ways and beg your forgiveness. It's not going to happen. I think part of forgiveness is to stop expecting things from people and just accepting them for who they are. You have to accept that he's a bad guy and likely will always be a bad guy. Doesn't mean you have to tolerate him in your life, of course, but you have to just accept that's who he is and that's what kind of behavior you're going to get, and still may uncover, even years after the fact.

Forgiveness comes differently for everyone. I think before you can forgive you have to understand why you are so angry still. And as others have said or insinuated, I don't think this is actually about forgiveness for you. Forgiving someone doesn't mean you can never feel anger at them again. Forgiveness is like mindfulness. It's a daily practice. It's not an instantaneous one and done.

Also, this guy really used you and mistreated you. I mean, just, I would be super pissed if I was used that way too. And I would still be. I think when you find yourself feeling these feelings again, since it sounds like you want to move past the anger because it's taking up space in your head and giving you stress, is to practice mindfulness and being in the present. What I mean is reminding yourself to be in the present, ie: he's not here, he's not with you, you've moved on, he can't hurt you anymore so it really doesn't matter; what's in the present, right now, this moment, is whatever you want to give your time and energy to.

As they say: don't let him go on living rent free in your head. He already stole enough from you without giving him free space in your brain too.

Just my guess but you are probably right that he was saying those things either a) to hurt you, probably because he felt hurt, whether or not he had any right to feel hurt, and/or b) to talk himself out of feeling bad about his actions.

Love... well love is really complicated, isn't it? There's a lot of reasons people can say things that betray what they feel. I think the point is that, his sincerity and how he really felt about you is something you'll probably never fully get closure on, yet at the same time, it seems to be one of the main factors that is lingering now and making you feel unable to let go of this past experience.

Man, I know how much it hurts to hear words like that that make you start to question everything you had experienced up to that point. That sense of betrayal. It hurts, but because of that pain you are kind of going back and forth and around in circles here. On one hand you're saying what he did was horrible and inhuman and on the other hand you're insisting that he wasn't using you because he really loved you. So the way I see it is that you are simultaneously of two minds about what happened and you're not sure which one to believe. Probably it's somewhere in the middle.... and even both sides can be true at the same time.

But then again, even if he 100% did love you, the fact of the matter remains that, did he treat you in the way you want to be treated? No. Even if he DID love you, that's no excuse to treat you that way. So to me it looks like one problem is that it seems like you wouldn't feel as bad about what he did to you as long as you don't have to doubt that he loved you. If he loved you then somehow it feels less unacceptable. So then because he said those words that cast doubt on his feelings, then that's where all of those things start to feel that much worse, then you REALLY feel taken advantage of and then you find yourself needing closure on how genuine were his feelings, which is the one part of this picture that you can't get closure on, so then it's impossible to move on.

So the point is, you have to separate "did he love me" from "were his actions cruel/did his actions hurt me." Love is not an excuse for any of this. It doesn't make it any less bad.

Eve- I had a thought....do you have to forgive?

I had to comment on placing other people’s well being and happiness on the same level as yours or even above yours because you love them.

Yes it’s something we often do when we love: our family or a romantic partner. But you got to get to know the person first (if they aren’t family). Know if they are right people for you to place their well being above yours. And you can love people without taking them on and financially supporting them. You can love without doing all that. You shouldn’t put other people’s needs first if you barely know them and can’t even trust them 100%. You got to put yourself first golden

She said in her other thread that she feels she needs to forgive in order to move on fully

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine1966 She said in her other thread that she feels she needs to forgive in order to move on fully

No, I get that but what if moving on isn't so much about forgiveness as it is about forgiving oneself for not forgiving the abuser?

Oh absolutely. I know what you are saying. I personally don’t see why there is a need to forgive him or get an apology. When I waste my energy on wrong people I focus on forgiving myself for making a mistake, learn my lesson, do better next time and move on with my life. I find it important to not be in a victim mode. If I was a willing participant and did all this for a person out of my own volition, wasn’t kidnapped and forced to do stuff, then I acknowledge my own part in this. Reflect on why I did it and be done. I see no value in analyzing why someone did what they did. I reflect only on my own actions.

But golden seems to struggle with moving on without actual forgiveness and him acknowledging wrongdoings. There is also ruminating issue and wanting to follow up with him. I am not fully understanding this need but I respect the fact that’s what golden eve does and that’s what she wants. I am not sure it’s attainable though. Hopefully eventually it all gets settled one way or the other. This dude took enough space in Golden’s head! She deserves to be free of him

@seesaw @divine1966 @magicalprince @sarahsweets

Thank you all!

@seesaw, I thank you for your thoughtful reply! Yes I've tried the logical route as well. To logic and reason my way through my emotions. Even that doesn't work well right now for me. It's my emotional state I am dealing with, which is not rational or logical. I never learned how to process and deal with anger and rage very well. And all my anger and rage rose to the surface again when I learned that he stole from me to buy drugs behind my back. He even pretended someone had "dosed" him at a concert I took him to, when it turns out, he had done drugs secretly without telling me, asking me if I wanted him to go to the store for me (that's how he bought the DXM for himself with MY debit card). And no, I should not be surprised to learn this -- and that's exactly what I had written in my journal about it: no surprise there!

@magicalprince, thank you as well for your thoughtful insights and reply! You hit the nail on the head. IF he did truly love me, somehow it makes it less of an insult to my self-esteem and less of a blow to me. IF he didn't, and if it all truly was a lie and he loved her more, then I made the worst mistake of my entire life and it was all a BIG JOKE on me. I was the fool. I was foolish to begin with to get involved with him, but if this is really true? My self esteem and self worth go down the drain... what a colossal mistake that was so very costly to me in SO many ways. If he did love her more, then why did we even get engaged??

And that's what this really is about, I think... is about my self esteem and self worth, and I am battling to feel good about myself. I am battling to place this in its proper place so I can throw it in the river & leave it there for good.

How can I feel good about myself given this situation? He tried to destroy me emotionally, and well, perhaps it actually worked. Maybe that's the real root of all of this....

I want SO badly to put him out of my mind for good. But it haunts me and it's SO hard to stop the feelings and thoughts, even though I am newly married. So, like I said above, logic and reason don't do me any good right now because my emotional state does not match any of my reasoning or logic.

@sarahsweets, yes, perhaps I don't need to actually forgive him. Maybe like seesaw said, it's more about forgiving myself, though I thought I already had a year ago.

At the same time, I guess I just feel like the biggest fool in the world. And I never wish to live with regrets.... I do regret the entire experience, and that's also what I am living with. I say in my happiness blog to eliminate regret from one's life in order to truly be happy. I am a hypocrite then, because I cannot seem to do it myself on this one issue.

@Divine1966, yes you're right.. though I've been through those thoughts before.... I know the mistakes I made... though I probably repeated the same mistake again with my current husband by getting involved too quickly. Then again, things are really good now between us, and things have been great lately. Knock on wood!!!!

I wish I had the answers, but what I do know is that my self-esteem has suffered a huge blow... and that's at the root of this.

You're missing the point. There is no quick fix. It sounds like you are looking for a quick fix.

“my self-esteem has suffered a huge blow... and that's at the root of this.”

That’s precisely it. I can assure you that you will eventually stop reeling from this. For those of us who ruminate, we do eventually find our own closure and move on. When you cut your skin, it eventually heals. So does your heart and mind. Some of us take longer than others.

I am frustrated with myself and with this process.

Thank you. Yes I know you’re right. It’s been two years.

I’m ashamed to say how long it took me. But it did eventually heal. I am convinced the body is built to heal.

Yeah I hear you!!! For me, this was one of the worst relationships of my life. That and another abuser from whom I literally had to flee for my safety.

What do you think you're missing that would help you make peace with this? Do you need some sort of closure with him?

And therein lies the golden question! I would love to hear him tell me he was lying when he said he loved his other ex more. But I know I will never get that from him.

Why do you think you need to hear that? What would it change?

My self esteem. It matters for my self esteem. Otherwise I bent over backwards helping someone who loved me a lot less than I knew of or thought.

It also means I got engaged to someone who didn’t truly love me? It makes the engagement a joke.. a joke on me. It makes me look like the total fool. I already am but that’s far worse.

And therein lies the rub. You're tying your own self-worth to someone else's feelings towards you, effectively handing over control to someone who, by all accounts, sounds like a narcissist.

Whether or not he truly loved you wouldn't have any bearing at all on who you are. You helped him and cared for him because you're a good person. He couldn't see that, and he lost his chance with you. That's all on him.