[rdgrad15]

I've wondered, what is the difference between a true narcissist and someone who just generally doesn't like to admit they were wrong about something or can't be held responsible for their actions? I know narcissists can't handle being wrong or being held responsible for anything. Too much of a threat. But I also have known and still know some people who aren't narcissistic that can't handle responsibility or being wrong either. They may be a little arrogant, but still doesn't have all the characteristics of full blown narcissism. Same with going into a rage after being called out on. Narcissistic people will fly into a rage if someone tries to call them out on something, but it's also possible for someone who is not narcissistic to do the same thing.

Could it be that there are different levels of narcissism? Is it possible that there are other personality disorders that may have some overlapping symptoms that mimic narcissistic personality disorder? I believe there can be other factors in play. I know some people who were a bit arrogant but not truly narcissistic that would fly into a rage if they were called out on something, even if it was something small and not a huge deal. Some people may just have a fear of admitting they were wrong due to negative past experiences. Not making any excuses for their behavior, just a general reason as to why they may act the way they do.

They may have insecurities and a general fear of being held responsible or being wrong, but it may not necessarily be due to narcissism, it could be general feelings of inferiority, being abused in the past, and a general need for acceptance from others. All of this can overlap and appear to make someone look narcissistic. I just wondered how you exactly distinguish someone with true narcissism and something else that could be causing them not want to accept responsibility. I wondered if maybe there was another sign that gave a 100 percent certainty as to whether to not someone is a true narcissist.

I knew someone in college who, if she was called out on something, she would respond with rage and even start throwing stuff. Some would say she was narcissistic, others would think she has something else wrong with her. I know some people who refuse to admit to being wrong towards certain people, like family members but not as much towards others. Also my friend's mom is the kind to throw fits of rage as well. If she is called out on something, she will get so mad she will start throwing stuff as well and screaming and stomping around like a child would. She also has ADHD and that can lead to extreme anger. My dad can't admit to being wrong especially since he used to be in the Marines and in the military, it is generally frowned upon to be wrong. There are many more examples of people who can't admit to being wrong or taking responsibility, yet they aren't narcissistic. Do you know some general key differences between true narcissism and just someone not wanting to admit wrong doing or responsibility? Just wondered what you all thought.

[seesaw]

A lot of people don't like to be wrong. And the woman you mentioned from college, she could have had any number of things going on that were triggered when she was called out as wrong on something. To answer your question: yes, narcissistic personality disorder is on a spectrum, so it can be mild or severe. People can also have some traits or characteristics but not be diagnosed with it because they do not meet the criteria. Yes, NPD overlaps with other Axis II personality disorders, and predominantly with borderline personality disorder. And YES, there are a lot of times when the behavior that is outwardly showing, while it may look like a narcissistic action to you could be derived from something wholly different within the person. Some people just have anger issues, some people are just having a bad day and at their emotional capacity.

Thing is, no one likes being wrong. So normal people will generally get a little defensive when you point out they are wrong. People who are sensitive may get more defensive. People who have been made wrong a lot will be even more sensitive. Someone who is at their emotional threshold might have a meltdown. The person you mentioned with ADHD sounds like they were having a meltdown. In the case of your dad, it's a culture-centric behavior from his training. He probably CAN admit he's wrong if it were approached with respect. I have family in the military too and they don't like to admit being wrong but they will, eventually.

The key differences between someone having NPD and something else go back to the definition in the DSM-V. There are a whole slew of characteristics and traits that qualify someone with NPD versus just someone with an anger issue or someone who is too immature to handle being wrong. And I think that's another key thing: often the inability to accept responsibility or calmly handle being wrong comes from immaturity or lack of maturity. NPD is more than just immaturity. Someone who simply lacks the maturity to deal with their mistakes will often calm down and be able to be reasoned with and talk about it. A narcissist never will. Someone who lacks maturity can gain maturity and insight. A narcissist cannot.

I know you said you are trying to distinguish one from the other, but I think it's key to realize that either way, someone who doesn't accept responsibility for their actions is someone to maintain strong boundaries with.

Does that help at all?

[sarahsweets]

The issue I have is that people want to throw the narcissism label around and diagnose toxic people. Sometimes they are just assholes.

[divine1966]

I urge you to not label or diagnose people. Just focus on their behaviors and if behaviors don’t suit you, move on from these people or keep your distance.

If someone goes into rages for no reason, I don’t care why they do so, I am out (or if I can’t completely cut contact I am keeping my distance). Unless I am dealing with official diagnosis for my professional reasons, I see no need to diagnose or label random poorly behaved people

[AzulOscuro]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

The issue I have is that people want to throw the narcissism label around and diagnose toxic people. Sometimes they are just assholes.

Lol! Yes, let’s say that there are non professional assholes and then, there are the narcissist who are profesional and intentional.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by divine1966

I urge you to not label or diagnose people. Just focus on their behaviors and if behaviors don’t suit you, move on from these people or keep your distance.

If someone goes into rages for no reason, I don’t care why they do so, I am out (or if I can’t completely cut contact I am keeping my distance). Unless I am dealing with official diagnosis for my professional reasons, I see no need to diagnose or label random poorly behaved people

Oh I know. I didn't mean to come off like I'm diagnosing people. But I do know some people that like to do just that which is very annoying. I am the same way as you, if I can't cut someone off then I maintain my distance. Whether they have actually problems or not doesn't matter, either way there has to be distance.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

The issue I have is that people want to throw the narcissism label around and diagnose toxic people. Sometimes they are just assholes.

Oh I agree, like I mentioned in another post, I know some people who like to diagnose people with various disorders. I know some people, including me, have been labeled as autistic due to introverted and even mildly awkward behavior. So stupid. It is so annoying and usually when people continuously label others with various disorders, I see them as very arrogant and intrusive.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by AzulOscuro

Lol! Yes, let’s say that there are non professional assholes and then, there are the narcissist who are profesional and intentional.

Yeah I agree.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by seesaw

A lot of people don't like to be wrong. And the woman you mentioned from college, she could have had any number of things going on that were triggered when she was called out as wrong on something. To answer your question: yes, narcissistic personality disorder is on a spectrum, so it can be mild or severe. People can also have some traits or characteristics but not be diagnosed with it because they do not meet the criteria. Yes, NPD overlaps with other Axis II personality disorders, and predominantly with borderline personality disorder. And YES, there are a lot of times when the behavior that is outwardly showing, while it may look like a narcissistic action to you could be derived from something wholly different within the person. Some people just have anger issues, some people are just having a bad day and at their emotional capacity.

Thing is, no one likes being wrong. So normal people will generally get a little defensive when you point out they are wrong. People who are sensitive may get more defensive. People who have been made wrong a lot will be even more sensitive. Someone who is at their emotional threshold might have a meltdown. The person you mentioned with ADHD sounds like they were having a meltdown. In the case of your dad, it's a culture-centric behavior from his training. He probably CAN admit he's wrong if it were approached with respect. I have family in the military too and they don't like to admit being wrong but they will, eventually.

The key differences between someone having NPD and something else go back to the definition in the DSM-V. There are a whole slew of characteristics and traits that qualify someone with NPD versus just someone with an anger issue or someone who is too immature to handle being wrong. And I think that's another key thing: often the inability to accept responsibility or calmly handle being wrong comes from immaturity or lack of maturity. NPD is more than just immaturity. Someone who simply lacks the maturity to deal with their mistakes will often calm down and be able to be reasoned with and talk about it. A narcissist never will. Someone who lacks maturity can gain maturity and insight. A narcissist cannot.

I know you said you are trying to distinguish one from the other, but I think it's key to realize that either way, someone who doesn't accept responsibility for their actions is someone to maintain strong boundaries with.

Does that help at all?

I totally agree. Yeah I get what you mean, although I've never heard of Axis personalities. I'll have to look that up. And I agree, no matter what the reason for someone's behavior, it is best to maintain boundaries. I am not trying to diagnose people, that's not in my position to do so. But I know some people that love doing just that and will go on to prove that they are right and that they know someone is narcissistic or even other various disorders. I consider people who do stuff like that to be arrogant and intrusive. But yes, strong boundaries should always be maintained.

[Open Eyes]

It’s true that a lot of people like to use that label because it’s an easy way to identify others that can present with behaviors that can be a challenge to deal with.

I am married to a man that has both adhd and dyslexia and I often wonder if he may have an issue with ocd as well. My husband can be loud and reactive and he also can struggle with anger. If you read about this challenge you can learn my husband exhibits the behavior patterns described. Because of our age the behaviors my husband often presents were not recognized so that he had the right help so he could learn how to better manage his challenges. So as a result he self medicated with alcohol. This is something I have learned many like him end up doing.

One could misunderstand these behaviors and label him as a narcissist. Yes he does have some narcissistic traits. However a lot of his behaviors are due to how his brain is wired.

Ironically yesterday he was putting together a quote for a job with another guy that also has dyslexia and adhd. My husband mentioned with a bit of pride that he proof read the quote and noticed some mispellings the other guy made. Well it’s a big deal when your brain is not set up to spell and embrace language the way that comes natural to others.

One of the things this guy did mention to my husband is how he doesn’t like it when people get loud. This is something I have had a problem with for years with my husband. So while one individual with adhd and dyslexia can be loud another with these same challenges can be sensitive and not loud.

I have a grand nephew that had a big problem with temper tantrums and meltdowns. He was finally diagnosed with aspergers. He struggled in school because his teachers would push him when he kept asking them to stop. He kept trying to explain how his brain would get overwhelmed and they would not listen and he would end up having a melt down.

I happen to be exposed to many individuals like my husband. Many alcoholics have these challenges like my husband. Just this morning I overheard my husband trying to support a friend in the program that just in the past few days had three individuals he sponsored unable to handle the stress of this covid 19
Impact all drank themselves to death. That was triggering for me to hear because I had a friend that despite my efforts to help her also drank herself to death. I don’t think I ever really got over that tbh.

We all like to toss a label to simplify for ourselves. Labeling individuals that present social challenges as narcissists has most definitely become a mainstream trend. However often it’s a lot more complex than that which requires individuals that are trained to examine and even these individuals make errors.

I doubt this trend of quick labeling will stop as it’s become a strong trend and is used by many.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by rdgrad15

I totally agree. Yeah I get what you mean, although I've never heard of Axis personalities. I'll have to look that up. And I agree, no matter what the reason for someone's behavior, it is best to maintain boundaries. I am not trying to diagnose people, that's not in my position to do so. But I know some people that love doing just that and will go on to prove that they are right and that they know someone is narcissistic or even other various disorders. I consider people who do stuff like that to be arrogant and intrusive. But yes, strong boundaries should always be maintained.

I didn't think you were trying to diagnose anyone. I could see you were trying to understand the difference, and I do think that dealing with someone who is just defensive is going to be different than if you know it's someone with NPD. Boundaries are one thing regardless of what the cause is, but if you are regularly having to deal with this person, whether in your family or at work, then the tactics you take may be different.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

It’s true that a lot of people like to use that label because it’s an easy way to identify others that can present with behaviors that can be a challenge to deal with.

I am married to a man that has both adhd and dyslexia and I often wonder if he may have an issue with ocd as well. My husband can be loud and reactive and he also can struggle with anger. If you read about this challenge you can learn my husband exhibits the behavior patterns described. Because of our age the behaviors my husband often presents were not recognized so that he had the right help so he could learn how to better manage his challenges. So as a result he self medicated with alcohol. This is something I have learned many like him end up doing.

One could misunderstand these behaviors and label him as a narcissist. Yes he does have some narcissistic traits. However a lot of his behaviors are due to how his brain is wired.

Ironically yesterday he was putting together a quote for a job with another guy that also has dyslexia and adhd. My husband mentioned with a bit of pride that he proof read the quote and noticed some mispellings the other guy made. Well it’s a big deal when your brain is not set up to spell and embrace language the way that comes natural to others.

One of the things this guy did mention to my husband is how he doesn’t like it when people get loud. This is something I have had a problem with for years with my husband. So while one individual with adhd and dyslexia can be loud another with these same challenges can be sensitive and not loud.

I have a grand nephew that had a big problem with temper tantrums and meltdowns. He was finally diagnosed with aspergers. He struggled in school because his teachers would push him when he kept asking them to stop. He kept trying to explain how his brain would get overwhelmed and they would not listen and he would end up having a melt down.

I happen to be exposed to many individuals like my husband. Many alcoholics have these challenges like my husband. Just this morning I overheard my husband trying to support a friend in the program that just in the past few days had three individuals he sponsored unable to handle the stress of this covid 19
Impact all drank themselves to death.

We all like to toss a label to simplify for ourselves. Labeling individuals that present social challenges as narcissists has most definitely become a mainstream trend. However often it’s a lot more complex than that which requires individuals that are trained to examine and even these individuals make errors.

I doubt this trend of quick labeling will stop as it’s become a strong trend and is used by many.

Thank you for sharing. Yeah just by your description, I can see how it may appear that he has some narcissistic traits. But like you said, there are many different factors that go into play. Someone can be a bit arrogant or overly prideful of themselves without being narcissistic. Yeah I agree. This trend will most likely always happen since people seem to use it as a means to try to understand someone.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by seesaw

I didn't think you were trying to diagnose anyone. I could see you were trying to understand the difference, and I do think that dealing with someone who is just defensive is going to be different than if you know it's someone with NPD. Boundaries are one thing regardless of what the cause is, but if you are regularly having to deal with this person, whether in your family or at work, then the tactics you take may be different.

Yeah I agree. It all depends on what capacity you are in and how you deal with someone with anger problems and anything else that may make dealing with them difficult.

[MsLady]

Originally Posted by seesaw

I didn't think you were trying to diagnose anyone. I could see you were trying to understand the difference, and I do think that dealing with someone who is just defensive is going to be different than if you know it's someone with NDP.

I agree. I really didn't think the OP was diagnosing anyone but simply trying to understand the differences due to behaviours.

I also think it's a far stretch to say someone is "just being a jerk" when they're exhibiting some serious clusters of behaviours. People are trying to understand what is happening in their world with the people in their life. Yes, there are solutions to consider and many times those solutions can be risky to take on.

Unless personal names are being used, we're not technically labeling "anyone" on a some anonymous thread.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by MsLady

I agree. I really didn't think the OP was diagnosing anyone but simply trying to understand the differences due to behaviours.

I also think it's a far stretch to say someone is "just being a jerk" when they're exhibiting some serious clusters of behaviours. People are trying to understand what is happening in their world with the people in their life. Yes, there are solutions to consider and many times those solutions can be risky to take on.

Unless personal names are being used, we're not technically labeling "anyone" on a some anonymous thread.

Yep I agree, have to choose whatever solution works best.

[sarahsweets]

Originally Posted by MsLady

I agree. I really didn't think the OP was diagnosing anyone but simply trying to understand the differences due to behaviours.

I also think it's a far stretch to say someone is "just being a jerk" when they're exhibiting some serious clusters of behaviours. People are trying to understand what is happening in their world with the people in their life. Yes, there are solutions to consider and many times those solutions can be risky to take on.

Unless personal names are being used, we're not technically labeling "anyone" on a some anonymous thread.

I think the issue is trying to discern this via a description from someone and account for bad people vs narcissists.

[MsLady]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

I think the issue is trying to discern this via a description from someone and account for bad people vs narcissists.

I'm not sure. What does "bad" really mean, anyway? From what I've read on this forum, people are describing specific concerning behaviours and are very confused about them.

[Open Eyes]

I have had to have a lot of therapy to understand my older sisters behaviors. The past five years alone have been hell. I sat with three different therapists that told me I am dealing with a very disordered individual. Each therapist leaned very heavily towards her being a narcissist. And then things got so bad that it pretty much became that of how to best deal with someone that is clearly displaying all the clear red flags including horrible narcissistic rages along with a great deal of gaslighting and manipulating and total unwillingness to being accountable. It’s not even a question of a person exhibiting some narcissistic behaviors. Instead it’s someone who rewrites everything and even believes it.

I have to say it’s been the most embarrassing experience of my entire life. It’s that same look I see on so many different faces. The disbelief and the OMGs.

Saying don’t allow or just ignore simply doesn’t cut it. So sometimes an individual really is a narcissist. And sometimes you just don’t want to believe it. Then you sit down with a therapist in hopes he can help you find a way to recover.

Yet in my case I did not throw that label around instead it was guided by more than one therapist. I think I wanted it to be something else.

One thing I have noticed is there are countless articles and talks about this specific disorder and often in just about every Psych Central email I receive dicussing mental health challenges.

[Open Eyes]

It can get confusing. Some individuals can present some narcissistic behaviors. Yet that doesn’t always equate to the full blown disorder.

[Open Eyes]

Sarahsweets you are right in that some people are just jerks and behave badly. Narcissists are much more calculated and desire control and need to feel superior over others and desire power over others. There is a difference.

[MsLady]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

Instead it’s someone who rewrites everything and even believes it.

^^ THIS ^^

I can really relate to this. It's far beyond someone just being controlling or simply, a jerk.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

I think the issue is trying to discern this via a description from someone and account for bad people vs narcissists.

Yeah, discerning between someone who may be truly narcissistic and someone who's just a bit arrogant and rude. Just like how someone with ADHD, like my friend does as well as other people, who may have symptoms that overlap with autism.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by MsLady

I'm not sure. What does "bad" really mean, anyway? From what I've read on this forum, people are describing specific concerning behaviours and are very confused about them.

I assume bad people meant anyone who is naturally rude and even arrogant, but not a full blown narcissist and doesn't meet the criteria either.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

I have had to have a lot of therapy to understand my older sisters behaviors. The past five years alone have been hell. I sat with three different therapists that told me I am dealing with a very disordered individual. Each therapist leaned very heavily towards her being a narcissist. And then things got so bad that it pretty much became that of how to best deal with someone that is clearly displaying all the clear red flags including horrible narcissistic rages along with a great deal of gaslighting and manipulating and total unwillingness to being accountable. It’s not even a question of a person exhibiting some narcissistic behaviors. Instead it’s someone who rewrites everything and even believes it.

I have to say it’s been the most embarrassing experience of my entire life. It’s that same look I see on so many different faces. The disbelief and the OMGs.

Saying don’t allow or just ignore simply doesn’t cut it. So sometimes an individual really is a narcissist. And sometimes you just don’t want to believe it. Then you sit down with a therapist in hopes he can help you find a way to recover.

Yet in my case I did not throw that label around instead it was guided by more than one therapist. I think I wanted it to be something else.

One thing I have noticed is there are countless articles and talks about this specific disorder and often in just about every Psych Central email I receive dicussing mental health challenges.

I'm sorry you had to go through so much trouble. I hope things get better for you and your sister and hope she gets the help she needs. And I'm glad you use the label that was guided from a therapist rather than throwing it around like some people do.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

It can get confusing. Some individuals can present some narcissistic behaviors. Yet that doesn’t always equate to the full blown disorder.

Yes exactly. Out of the several people in my life that have had anger problems and may have even been arrogant, there is only one person that comes to mind that I'm very certain has NPD. I could be wrong, but if I heard the person had NPD, I would not be surprised.