Have you ever issued an ultimatum/laid down the law with a mentally ill spouse?

I think you should be completely honest and direct with your stepdaughter about it. You already do a good job at expressing concern for your wife's mental state, so it's not going to sound like mere marital *****ing and moaning.

I do think you should tell your parents, your friend, and your stepdaughter about the situation. Be honest and upfront about it all. Hopefully they will be understanding of both your sides.

I wouldn't tell MY parents, but maybe yours are different. They'll be protective of you at a cost to your wife and your marriage. If or when things even out in your relationship, your parents are certainly not going to forget what she put you through. Well, at least mine wouldn't. Again, good luck about yours.

The mutual friend makes sense, and the daughter - well, I think she has a right to know and would WANT to know; it will probably answer some questions for her and you might be able to come up with better solutions between the two of you than you on your own or you+a bunch of strangers on the internet.

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gordian_knot said:

we have an adult daughter who is 21 years old. She's actually my stepdaughter, but I've raised her since she was five and consider her my own. She knows some of what's going on, but not a lot, and my plan was to give her the details as well. How much should I tell her?

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Gordian_knot, I also have two adult step daughters as well as 2 young boys of my own. I have a great relationship with the girls. Personally, I really try hard not to get them caught up in the problems my H and I are having. They don't need me to tell them that their Dad has a serious problem with depression or can at times be very verbally abusive. They have known him longer than I have and know first hand how challenging it can be to live day to day in the same household. My H was very young when he had his daughters and the relationship with his ex-wife got really ugly. My feeling on this is that I need to be as supportive and facilitate their relationship with their father the best that I can. If they sense the tension and ask about what is going on, I will be honest with them, but not overly detailed. I just feel like I should not put them in a position where they have to hear me complain about their dad. When he is having problems, they know, I don't need to pull them aside and say "hey, you dad is really struggling today."

This is just my opinion. I don't really know your situation and can only share my experience with you.

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LMo said: I wouldn't tell MY parents, but maybe yours are different. ...The mutual friend makes sense, and the daughter - well, I think she has a right to know and would WANT to know.

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I think - I hope - my parents are different. They know she was hospitalized and about the violent blowout she had in November and, even though they don't truly understand it, they still love her and support her. And I think you and Razzleberry are right about my daughter, even though she'll be less understanding. She's been very judgemental of and angry with her mom's behaviour. I'll do my best to make her understand and empathize.

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mckell said: My feeling on this is that I need to be as supportive and facilitate relationship with their father the best that I can. If they sense the tension and ask about what is going on, I will be honest with them, but not overly detailed. I just feel like I should not put them in a position where they have to hear me complain about their dad.

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I appreciate your opinion, and I absolutely agree with you. For years I've done just that, trying to protect her and ease her concerns about her mom's ongoing bizarre behaviour without being dishonest so she didn't worry so much, especially since their relationship is tumultuous at best. But next week will be the first time I'll be taking a proactive, assertive step towards changing the situation with my wife. When I'm done, my wife will need to decide whether or not she wants to be a healthy, responsible part of our family. Whichever way it goes, there's going to be very noticable fallout and a change in our lives and I think I'll need to explain to my daughter what caused it.

...I've been thinking about what you said, mckell, about my plan to write out details about what's been going on with my wife and send it to my family and our mutual friend. I think you're right - it would likely get back to her and she'd feel absolutely betrayed. I think I'll still write it out but for my use only to use when I call them to talk to them.

I'm still strugging with how much to tell them. The key events that pushed me to confront my wife are the suicide attempt - they believe it was an accidental overdose - and the affairs. How many details should I tell them?

Gordian_knot

I think you are being very thoughtful about what you are planning. You seem to be open to conflicting ideas, yet still able to maintaining your own perspective. I think this is really great. I think in the end when you make your move it will be decisive but compassionate. You seem like you are well aware of the foreseeable consequences and are taking action for right reasons.

One other thing I might recommend... IF I had the guts to be proactive and assertive, I would need to have this thread and all my rationales available to review over and over again when all hell breaks loose. I would be afraid that I would start the turmoil and then lose my ability to think in midstream. I would need encouragement to see the process through to the end. Hopefully you are more confident in yourself.

Have you considered creating a file that outlines all the reasons you are taking the step you are taking? It might be nice to have. Just in case things get worse and you start feeling like you made a mistake, guilty, or whatever, you can look back on all thought you put into you plan and be comforted.

Good luck, I really hope your wife is capable of doing the things that you are asking.

I've spent the last few days doing exactly that - going over my reasons, reviewing her behaviour and reminding myself again and again that I can't allow myself to get defensive or argumentative when I confront my wife on Monday. I just need to stick to the facts and be assertive with the new limits. I've also been studying the techniques at this link I discovered to use during our talk so that I don't lose my focus or temper. Or my mind.

Again, I really need to thank everyone who responded to me in this thread. You went miles beyond anything I had expected when I first posted here a month ago, and you've really helped me to clear my jumbled thoughts and start to make a change.

<font color="red">Thank you.</font>

After Monday I'll let you know how it went.

You are one special man, Gordian. Obviously, others here are encouraging you to be patient, and to follow through with your plan, but I think you're taking on too much responsibility for your wife's behavior. I hate to say it, but I seriously doubt you are going to regain a loving wife through all of this. If she goes to counseling, therapy, increased meds, as you say....my suspicion the outcome will be, as you have already stated, that she will just get well enough to leave.
I think you should arm yourself, with a smart lawyer, with all the information you have shared here, about her interntet affair, her ignoring you , your children, in favor of pursuing a relationship online and "wanting to have his baby!" If you presente such hard evidence n a divorce situation, and wanting to take care of your children, I doubt you would lose much financially. She would be out there on her own to fend for herself, as seems to be what she wants anyway.
Sounding harsh? Maybe I'm just too old to put up with such abuse.
Patty

I am going through a smiliar experience with a man that I am dating. We have been together for about a year and I had to lay down the law a couple of weeks ago about him going to see a therapist and getting help. I sat by and watched him fall into a deeper and deeper depression and didn't do anything about it so after awhile it just disgusted me. Hopefully once he starts treatment it will rekindle the romance that we use to have.

I will definately be watching your posts to see how everything is going.

So GK - yesterday was supposed to be the big day. How did it go?

It’s done. I’m a wreck. I feel like… I don’t know what I feel like. I’m numb and drained. And I don’t think anything changed. That’s the one result I hadn’t expected.

Last week I arranged for our home internet service to be disconnected on the 28th. I took a vacation day yesterday and stayed home from work. I got the kids ready and sent them off to school. When my wife woke up, I sat her down to talk to her. Without guessing at her feelings or motivations, I simply described her behaviours to her, telling her I knew about her affair and that her overdose was a suicide attempt and not an accident. I told her she’s abandoned her family and all of her responsibilities and created an online fantasy world for herself where she spends up to 15 hours a day.

Then I told her how I feel. That I’ve hated myself for knowing about the affair and not doing anything about it. That I was scared for my kids’ safety if she were to attempt suicide again. That it’s so incredibly painful and dangerous to live with and love someone with a serious mental illness who is refusing treatment.

Next, I asserted new limits. I told her I disconnected our internet service. And I told her she needs to take every opportunity to get help and get well, including therapy and medication, or we can’t continue to be married.

Finally, I told her that I’ve made these decisions to protect our kids, our family and myself, and that I can’t force her to do anything. She had to decide.

I could feel my cheeks get warm. It was intensely difficult for me to confront her like that. But I didn’t waver.

She didn’t say a word. I left the room. About a half hour later she bluntly asked if there was money in our account so she could fill up our vehicle with gas, and then she left. I called my adult daughter and told her what I had done, and how my wife reacted. She knew about most of it and had guessed at the affair based on some hints my wife dropped (although I inadvertently confirmed her suspicions, mistakenly thinking she already knew, which was a mistake).

A few hours later she came back and said she wanted a divorce, that she’s been wanting a divorce for a long, long time, that I should leave the house right away because I’m working and she’s not, and that she’d pursue custody of our children. I said, what about the kids and what a divorce would do to them? She simply said that they’d be fine. I told her it was irresponsible of her to simply destroy our family without communicating with me, without getting help for herself or going for marriage counselling, without trying at all to fix things. She said that’s what she wanted, and resented me for forcing the issue. She then said she couldn’t stay at our house, and planned to go stay with her dad about 450 miles away.

I left the house briefly and when I came back my wife was in tears, asking me why I told our daughter about the affair. I explained that I hadn’t intended to give out that detail, but talked about it only after mistakenly thinking she already knew. I also said that our daughter had the right to know what was going on and I needed support from the people I love to get our family through this. My wife said again that our marriage was over, and that I had better tell the kids. Then, again, she left the house.

She stayed away for about seven hours. Our kids came home from school in the meantime, and I explained to my 13-year-old daughter that I cut off our internet because of the amount of time her mom spent on the internet (which she knew) and because she was doing inappropriate things on Facebook (I didn’t clarify). I told her that mom wasn’t happy with me or living here and wanted to leave, but that it had nothing to do with her, that it was simply that her thoughts and feelings have changed.

The look on her face broke my heart.

I made them supper and cleaned up I also called my parents and filled them in. They were wonderfully supportive, and worried about both my wife and me. They’re great. Thank God for them.

At about 9:00 in the evening, my wife came home again, and this is where it gets mixed up. She came downstairs and asked me what I expected from her after my ultimatum this morning. I said I didn’t expect anything, but I had hoped she’d decide to get help and help rebuild our relationship and our family. We went over the same stuff again, and in mid-conversation she said she’d go to marriage counselling with me “just to see what it’s like”. Essentially, she wants an in-house separation so we can be friendly and continue to parent the kids, no promises.

… She just called me at work, just now. This is a %#@&#! mess. She’s demanding the internet be reconnected or she’ll go to a judge and have me removed from the house. She says I’m controlling her and have no right to disconnect it, that I’m trying to make her even more unhappy. She says she’ll start being a good parent and get a job so that by the time we see a judge he’ll see she’s a good parent and rule in her favour. She says she’ll call the internet company and have in reconnected herself.

I don’t know what to do. I’m going to have to take a few days off work to deal with this, maybe talk to a lawyer again, maybe to talk to a counsellor. I am royally screwed up right now. This is horrible, terrifying.

(((((((((((((Gordian_knot))))))))))))

Put on your armored suit. She has hers on, she has already mounted the horse and she is ready to push you off of yours.

No regard for the children's feelings is something that hits me directly in the heart.

Her threats have no substance and I am sure your attorney will confirm that. Don't give in to her threats. Stay strong. I know it seems like hell right now but just do everything you can to draw strength. If you have to call your parents for support (they seem to now be a good rock for you) the by goile DO IT.

My heart sincerely goes out to you.

She is pushing you to play hard ball - almost like she wants to find out how far you will go.

Don't let her have her way.

Tell her if she wants the @$#@^ing internet so freakin' bad to go the 450 miles away and get it at her dad's house. You and most DEFINITELY your children have the right to a healthy and loving home.

Sorry if this seems one sided. It just kind of angers me that she was so non-caring about the children's feelings. When I split with my boyfriend months back - his children were one of my FIRST CONCERNS and they are not even mine!

You are doing fine, I know it doesn't feel like it.

I'm glad your parents are so supportive. This is definitely time to pull in all the support you can find. I think it would be very wise for you to get a therapist for yourself to help out, they will provide a reality check.

You may feel like you made a huge mistake, your wife may do everything she can to make you feel like you made a huge mistake, but you did nothing of the kind.

I really hope you get a counsellor, this will help you so so much.

Remember, you are not causing all this chaos. Your wife has reacted with lots of turmoil and chaos. You are not making her do this, even if she says you are. This is her choice or if nothing else, this is her responsibility, even if mental illness currently pretty much prevents her from doing much else.

You will survive. Anything and everything you can do to pamper yourself in a healthy way is a good idea right now.

You are taking care of yourself and your family. You are being a good role model.

Just want to know do you ever hold her cuz you want to?
or do you expect what she was when you married her?

I just read all the posts here and the other post you made. And I want to say to you...Bravo!!! What a caring, thoughtful man / father you are! You should win a title for man of the decade.
How dare you think for one minute that you deserve this or that this is what till death to us part means.
If your wife was beating the kids...you would have already done something about it. But she is...love is blinded you. She is mentally abusing them. And in my experience (now 32) you might as well beat them. Bruises go away...abandonment does...but takes a hell of a lot longer.
She's pissed...you wont let her contact this other man. You grounded her. She has the misconception that because she is the mother that her rights are greater than yours...WRONG. The kids need to be protected from her. If she is refusing to change anything than you have to protect them. Who else is going too?
Are you going to the park and spending time with the kids? Are you talking to them about how it makes them feel that they have an absent mom? They need to be in some consulting. (school, church and lots of other places do it free or a very small fee) Are they hearing all of this? Are they seeing you sad? Are they missing their mother??
These are the best times of your kid's life.Make memory's that they will remember forever. Embrace it..they grow so fast. And before you know it...they are grown...and what are you left with? A wife that you have no relationship with? If your wife wants to live like she is living than at this point you can be done. DO YOU HEAR ME??? It's ok...I promise...you aren't failing or giving up. You can't help someone who doesn't want the help. Maybe she will do the right thing and get her head together...maybe you guy's will work it out...but at this point...I don't see her wanting to do anything but put the blame elsewhere.
I came on here to post about my stupid mother in law issues (which is nothing compared to this) and started reading other post. And now I feel like my issues are silly and petty...and I know that I need to just keep truckin...
same to you...hold your head up and focus on you and the kids...let her do what she wants...and remember, your children are a reflection of yourself.
Good Luck
Stephanie

GK - I'm sorry that it didn't go as well as you had hoped, but I think you did what had to be done. It's not your fault that she responded with "Elephant" when you asked how much the shirt cost.

SPM is right - her threats are without substance. A lawyer is definitely a good move right now, because she's probably seeking some legal advice of her own, even if she chickens out of acting on it. And I'd get on the marriage counseling thing ASAP before she changes her mind.

I'm so sad for the kids...

I hope you were very clear, when she freaked about her daughter knowing about the affair, that you are not going to cover her tracks when she is engaging in irresponsible behavior that is harmful to your family.

One thing that reminded me so much of similar "come to Jesus" conversations that I've had with my husband is how your wife gave absolutely no response before eventually leaving the house. My husband stonewalls me the exact same way - it's very unnerving, after pouring out well-prepared concerns from the heart, with the intention of trying to make things BETTER in the long run. Absolutely unnerving. I'm sorry she reacted... in all of the ways that she did.

You're doing a great job - don't get discouraged. I'm sending positive energy to you, to your wife, and especially to your 3 kids.

Gordian...I have been worried about you, and how it would go when you presented your wife with these ultimatums.
First of all...realize this: she is addicted to the Internet, and you took her FIX away. That, above all else, is going to cause her to go into severe withdrawal. Her statement that she will call the Internet company to have it reconnected does concern me. Can she do this after you cancelled it?
Can you call the company and make it clear that the INternet is not to be reconnected under any circumstances?

Under no circumstances should you be the one to leave your house and let her be there with your children...you know that! She has not cared for your children as you have, and all of this while you have been the only provider.

Are all of your children in school..? Or do you have any still preschool age at home all day?

I am so sad and concerned for you right now.

Love
Patty

and I agree with Seeker - don't move out, not even temporarily. Your kids need YOUR stability more now than ever

I think you may need to contact a lawyer or legal aide to ask for advice here. Your children's interests are what I am most concerned about.

And possibly look into group/family counseling for yourself and your kids to help get thru all this.

Your wife needs help. But you do not need to put up with all this crap from her anymore. I really applaud you for what you did, it took a lot of guts. What she is doing to you amouts to emotional abuse or neglect. Seriously.

Do whatever you can to keep your home and keep your kids. They need stability, and that won't happen if they have to move.

If you can show that she is a danger to herself or to others, you can get her locked up for 72 hours in a hospital. Honestly, that may be the best thing for her in the long run...but it may not go over so well with her.

Bravo on taking the first step. I hope you can get thru all this in one piece, somehow.

(((GK)))

(((((gordian knot)))))

I'm so sorry...she seems very selfish. I've never been married so I've never dealt with this but I wanted to let you know that we care about you and are thinking of you and your children.

Much thanks to everyone who offered advice and support. I’ve never before spent any time on online forums because so many of them are flippant, petty and insincere, or are populated by people who manufacture fake personas for themselves for their own selfish benefits, much like my wife has done on Facebook. I’m happily stunned that all of you have proven to be the exception. Writing everything out, and reading your responses, has given me the clarity my tangled thoughts badly needed.

Thank you all. Again.

After my post yesterday I left work. I couldn’t concentrate, couldn’t focus. I went out and booked an appointment with a lawyer (for today at 3 PM) and with a counsellor I’ve seen once before. I wasn’t too sure where to go after that so I just drove around. My wife called on my cell and wanted to meet me. We did, and she was calm and seemingly rational. She talked about how she’s going to get a job, and wanted me to print up a resume I had written for her a few years ago. She said she’d make supper that night, and asked me to go buy groceries with her. She commented this was the first time she’d been in the grocery store in 8 months or so.

After that, she went home. I still had about 80 minutes before the counsellor appointment, so I parked somewhere in town and abruptly fell asleep in the drivers’ seat. I just zonked out.

After that I saw the counsellor. I arranged for a therapist to come to my daughter’s school to talk with her. (She’s been having sudden, crippling stomach pains, likely from the stress. My wife hasn’t been the least bit discreet around our kids when discussing lawyers, divorce, etc.) I’m really worried about my daughter, but I spent 90 minutes last night helping her study for a science test (which she said today she thinks she aced), so I’m watching over her.

My counsellor is pretty blunt, which I appreciate. She says – and I agree – that safeguarding my kids should be my top priority. And it is. She also said, somewhat unofficially because she can’t officially make this recommendation, that if my wife refuses treatment I should actively pursue a separation, and have her removed from the house legally if needed. I wasn’t sure I should take such an extreme measure, so she gave me an assignment. She said to not challenge my wife any further this evening, but instead pay close attention to how she interacts with the kids and use that as a yardstick to measure how sincere she is about making changes. Is she concerned about their welfare? Does she talk to them? Play with them? Then she wanted me to call her the next day to let her know how it went.

So I did. I found out that my wife never once talked with my daughter after she found my wife after the attempted overdose and had to call 911. Never apologized, never found out how she felt, nothing. My wife also said to the effect that my daughter’s recent stomach pains are “exaggerated” and likely not at all related to what’s going on between us. Last night she didn’t sit with the kids and I at dinner, instead choosing to hole up in another part of the house somewhere. I cleaned up the kitchen afterward. And she’s coming up with more excuses not to go to therapy. My counsellor happened to see both of us together in the waiting room once in February (I had brought my wife in for one of her appointments) and commented to me that at that time my wife looked nice – she was dressed up and had done her hair – as an indicator that my wife must continue therapy because her problems might include more than just depression. My wife was extremely livid, saying that was a breach of confidentiality and now she doesn’t trust the therapists in that office (the only mental health clinic in town, incidentally). I insisted that she deal with her therapist about this because, no matter how difficult, uncomfortable or imperfect the situation is, it’s her responsibility to continue therapy. She said she’ll do what she wants.

I had intended to take today off from work, but my wife didn’t want me around, saying I stress her out. And yet she called me at work while she was out to drop off resumes. She was very agitated and upset, saying she couldn’t find the building she needed to go to, and there were too many vehicles so she couldn’t find parking, and she can’t talk on the phone so she couldn’t call them for directions, so can I come with her and help? So I did. She went home after that.

I called the counsellor afterward and gave her the details. First, she said I should stop enabling my wife by helping her with what should be basic day-to-day actions. Second, she’s worried – and so am I – that now that I’ve confronted my wife and taken away her internet addiction and her behaviour is getting more erratic and roller-coaster-like that she could do harm to herself.

The counsellor wants me to consider involuntary hospitalization. If our family doctor agrees, and he knows what’s going on and would probably support the idea, this could actually happen. She’d be taken to the nearest suitable facility in a city about three hours away and held for 72 hours after which time she’d be reassessed.

I don’t know if I could do that. Not yet.

I have an appointment with our family doctor on Tuesday, and I’ll get more details. But… I don’t know. It’s a huge, no-going-back step, bigger than my Monday confrontation. I’ll have to think about it.

A few replies:
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CedarS said:
You may feel like you made a huge mistake, your wife may do everything she can to make you feel like you made a huge mistake, but you did nothing of the kind..

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StarPonysMama said:
Put on your armored suit. Stay strong. No regard for the children's feelings is something that hits me directly in the heart. You and most DEFINITELY your children have the right to a healthy and loving home.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> It’s on. More and more I recognize I need to take these steps and it’s not a mistake, because the status quo was slow-acting poison.

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slkisstephanie said: If your wife was beating the kids...you would have already done something about it. But she is...love is blinded you. She is mentally abusing them.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> I keep saying that my situation doesn’t feel nearly as desperately horrible as all of you and the therapists tell me it actually is. Maybe I am kinda blind, or maybe I’ve just developed ways to cope or ignore the worst of it over the years. But I’ve gotten to the point where if everybody says it looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

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slkisstephanie said: Are you going to the park and spending time with the kids? Are you talking to them about how it makes them feel that they have an absent mom? They need to be in some consulting. …Are they hearing all of this? Are they seeing you sad? Are they missing their mother??

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> You bet I’m spending time with them, and for selfish reasons, too – they’re keeping me focussed and sane. And I’m talking with them, letting them know they can talk to me. They’ve always known that, but I’m reminding them daily. They miss their mom, but they've been missing her for over six months. It's more tumultuous right now, but it's more of the same for them. Sadly, they're used to relying on me as the only acting parent.

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LMo said:I hope you were very clear, when she freaked about her daughter knowing about the affair, that you are not going to cover her tracks when she is engaging in irresponsible behavior that is harmful to your family.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Not quite. I really hadn’t intended on sharing that particular detail with our adult daughter, so I did say I made a mistake. But I also clearly told her that our daughter had a right to know what was going on, and it was her choice to have the affair, and these secrets tend to come out.

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seeker1950 said: Are all of your children in school..? Or do you have any still preschool age at home all day? …Under no circumstances should you be the one to leave your house and let her be there with your children...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> I have all girls – two are 7 and 13 years old, and our adult daughter (actually my stepdaughter, but I raised her) is 21. And I’m not going anywhere. I’m not leaving my kids. There’s no way. Period.

About the internet, I’m very computer literate, and I’ll make sure it stays gone from our house no matter what my wife tries.

Gordian, as others have so sincerely stated here: You are one great man...husband and father.

Personally, I think your wife wants to find a job so she can leave and have a financial means of taking care of herself...not so she can be a contributing factor in your joint finances.

I'm unclear on what her ultimate decision was about seeking counseling or medical help, but it sounds like she finally said no to it.

Also, I am so sorry your daughter is experiencing these feelings of anxiety, manifested by stomach pains. You are so great to spend time talking with her and showing your love and support at this difficult time.

As for committing your wife for evaluation for 72 hours....I doubt it will help. I think you would just alienate her further, and she is hell-bent on her internet addiction as well as her online affair. Sorry, but this is how I see it. What she may ultimately get is a strong dose of reality when she finds herself out there on her own, separated from you, her only support, and her lovely children. This may be the jolt she needs though.

I really think you need to arm yourself with all the evidence of her behavior, and get yourself one tough, smart, unrelenting lawyer.

Patty

I agree with Seeker about the hospitalization...

and I'm sorry about your daughter's anxiety... as well as yours

You're doing a great job - keep it up