[precaryous]

Is it unethical for a therapist to bring up- or ask you to relate any sexual fantasies you might have of them?

Two different therapists have asked me. The subject didn't originate with me.
This is sexualizing the therapy and not ethical, isnt it?

Ooh, ick. Yeah, I'd be outta there.

[feileacan]

Did they ask it out of the blue or is there any relevant context to that question?

[DodgersMom]

Originally Posted by feileacan

Did they ask it out of the blue or is there any relevant context to that question?

ya i was thinking this too. if you mentioned your transference etc, maybe they are trying to help you through it....

however if it was random, yes weird and creepy and just no

[precaryous]

Originally Posted by feileacan

Did they ask it out of the blue or is there any relevant context to that question?

I can't remember the context, unfortunately. It happened some time ago.we might have been talking about sex in general or specific issues in my history. But I never attempted to be alluring or provocative.

In fact, I remember the question surprised me because I didn't have any fantasies about either one.

[Ididitmyway]

If the subject didn't originate with you, if you didn't have any sexual feelings towards the therapists and didn't bring it up, then, yes, it's unethical IMO. Some people may see it differently and may not see this as a big deal, but for me it's a big red flag that would make me run away and never return. I just don't understand what exactly motivates the therapists' interest in this subject if the client has never indicated that this was a part of their emotional process at any time.

In the absence of the understandable context of transference that had been brought up and discussed before, this seems to have nothing to do with what the client needs and everything to do with what the therapist needs, and for the therapist to have the need to know if the client thinks of them in sexual terms or has sexual fantasies about them is just plain sick.

[HD7970GHZ]

Hello,

Be careful not to assume it is unethical. Humans pick up on transference, good or bad. If a therapist asks if you have an erotic transference towards them it is almost always because they want to understand what is going on for you. Sometimes touching on embarassing subjects like sex is easier when the therapist makes the first attempt at talking about it.

Also, erotic transference can change the therapeutic alliance drastically. While boundaries are important in any relationship it is vital to set them when erotic transference is present; perhaps your therapist is picking up on something between the two of you that maybe you are unaware of, then again, maybe your therapist is completely wrong about it, in which case it is still within ethical bounds to ask.

Therapy can be invasive. Don't confuse unethical behavior with a therapist who may be asking invasive questions for (most likely) the right reasons.

Imagine if there was erotic transference and you didnt admit it. Imagine if, when you are extremely dysregulated in a session, the therapist hugs you or holds your hand (oblivious to the fact you have erotic transference). You could interpret this as a sexual advance or it could bring out even stronger sexual desires that will never be met. This can damage a patient.

Sometimes patients fail to communicate their experiences and so a therapist must step in and point a spotlight at a potential landmine that could arise later in treatment.

I think you should communicate this with your therapist, period. The only way you can get clarification about this is by asking your therapist, period. Coming and asking us is fine but we are not inside your therapeutic relationship, so how then can we give you genuine or accurate clarification?

I do not think your therapist is doing anything wrong. Remember, therapy is not just surface level. We think we are good at hiding things but their job is to help us; in other words, there may be a therapeutic reason why your therapist asks you this question... Is there any tiny bit of yourself that can see this as a good thing? The fact that you feel strongly enough about it to post on here is worthy of self analysis on its own... Perhaps this is a topic that needs more attention in which case, your therapist might just be that good...

Perhaps this will help...

I recently started therapy and I feel the therapist is a good fit. This therapist is my primary therapist.

In between sessions I went to a drop in style session at a different clinic and the drop in therapist I seen asked me who my primary therapist was. I said I didnt want to share. The therapist asked again, asking for even the first letter of a name.. I was taken aback by this. It was very invasive. Then this therapist asked if I was on medication... This really hurt. After the therapist left and had a peer review and came back for a final talk and to give me advice, I broke down in tears and said how painful and invasive it was to be asked these questions. I had a very traumatic experience in therapy previously and had been threatened to stay silent by a group of highly unethical healthcare professionals; so finding a safe place to work through my trauma is paramount to my healing process. I was crying hysterically and said I need my primary therapist to be unknown because if it wasnt I wouldnt be able to trust... The drop in therapist thanked me several times for sharing this because he/she was unware of my previous negative experience. The drop in therapist apologized and offered to put this in my notes so that future drop in therapists will not ask the same questions...

I could have easily taken this as unethical given the circumstances of my prior trauma in therapy world, but this is simply a therapist who was unaware and happened to stumble on a trigger of mine... Had I not shared this information the therapist would have never learned anything. There is a reason therapists will ask us what our triggers are; they don't want to hurt us. (Granted we are not in exposure therapy)

Also - therapists are human. One cannot expect another human (their therapist) to NOT have countertransference with a patient even if and when their own needs are met. Therapists experience sexual feelings for patients all the time, what matters is their degree of professionalism and ethical conduct and strength to set boundaries and ask for consultations so it does not conflict with the patients healing process...

Thanks,
Hd7970ghz

[RubyRae]

I personally believe if it's the therapist that randomly brings it up,flat out asks the client if they have sexual fantasies about them,and what they are,a person should bolt out the door and not go back.To me that would seem like they are encouraging that type of thing and it could lead down a wrong path.Even if there is erotic transference going on I feel it's wrong for the therapist to bring it up.But if the client brings it up and then the T asks questions,like what the fantasies are,that's completely different.

I talked to my T about the fantasies I was having about him and his wife,being sandwiched in between them,all of us having sex together.It was very helpful to talk about it and to understand why.But if he had asked me if I ever fantasized about him without ever bringing it up myself,I would have never returned to see him again.

Once I was talking about witnessing a rape as a child,I went into detail about what I saw,there was awkward silence and then he asked "did you see anything that you now will never do sexually?".At the time I was so upset over the question that I refused to answer him.I think some questions just shouldn't be asked by a therapist until the timing is right,after the client brings it up first,or it can do harm.And it's unethical.

[ramonajones]

Originally Posted by precaryous

Is it unethical for a therapist to bring up- or ask you to relate any sexual fantasies you might have of them?

Two different therapists have asked me. The subject didn't originate with me.
This is sexualizing the therapy and not ethical, isnt it?

Do they have any idea of the history of what you've been through?

[precaryous]

Originally Posted by ramonajones

Do they have any idea of the history of what you've been through?

Maybe I should have added that the two therapists who asked this question were Pdoc1 and AbusivePDoc.....two previous bad therapy experiences.

I think I'm trying to work out whether they each were intentionally grooming me at that point.

Possible trigger:

Pdoc# - I liked him very much. I formed an attachment. But he was very unethical, often. He claimed to be Freudian. He admitted me inpatient once...he ran a women's group (among other things) with about seven women inpatients. He was telling us that fantasy is human and healthy. He pointed at us and said, "I've already f* you and you and you in my fantasies. It was great." Like, no harm done. I didn't hear any of the women complain about that being unethical, not me, not anyone who I talked to. Instead, it seemed to be a humorous and arousing atmosphere for most of us. I didn't know many things he said did were unethical at the time.

We probably talked about fantasies. Maybe it was ethical, maybe not. I can't remember.

AbusivePDoc, though. I can't remember what brought it up, honestly. What I remember is he asked me if I had sexual fantasies about him. What I remember for sure is he wanted details. He wanted to know what I wore (in the fantasy) and what we did. The thing is, i remember I didn't have any sexual fantasies about him. I remember him asking for details. I remember making up a scenario.

My mind is stuck on him wanting details. Would that ever be ethical?

I don't know why my mind is stuck here. He went on to do exploitive things. He lost his license.

I think I am trying to figure out if he was already trying to groom me at this point. I don't know. Why would that make whatever happened any better or worse? It probably doesn't but my mind is stuck here.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by precaryous

My mind is stuck on him wanting details. Would that ever be ethical?

My answer is no. I don't understand how the exact details of what's happening in the sexual fantasy can bring any important understanding of the client's major issues. If the client is experiencing sexual attraction to the therapist and that's already known, that's just that. What else is there to know that would give the client solutions to her life problems? Nothing. If they were abused in the past, how does understanding the details of her present sexual fantasies will illuminate her way out of traumatic symptoms and out of being stuck in life? I can't think of any context in which exploring the details of sexual fantasies would have significant therapeutic value. I am not saying the client should be discouraged from talking about it. I am saying there is nothing for the therapist there to pursue.

[/QUOTE]I think I am trying to figure out if he was already trying to groom me at this point. [/QUOTE]

Yes. Based on what you've described my answer is a strong yes. As I said, I don't see any therapeutic meaning behind such inappropriate intrusiveness.

[Carolinian]

Several years ago I had a therapist tell me he "loved" me. I was so shocked, I said and did nothing. I had transference feelings for him which I chose not to reveal or act on. I wondered if his comment was a test, then I wondered if I had just imagined it.

One of my therapists asked me about the sexual fantasies I had about him in an ET discussion. I initiated the topic but he asked for the details. I did not mind and actually found it meaningful to think it through again in session, I felt the fantasies carried information about my sexual/romantic needs at the time, and more. It was just one session and we never spoke about it again.

I agree that it would be inappropriate for a T to ask a client about their sexual fantasies (whether about the T or in general) if it is not initiated by the client or is very obviously and directly linked to an ongoing issue that is being discussed.

[ramonajones]

[/QUOTE]

Possible trigger:

Pdoc# - I liked him very much. I formed an attachment. But he was very unethical, often. He claimed to be Freudian. He admitted me inpatient once...he ran a women's group (among other things) with about seven women inpatients. He was telling us that fantasy is human and healthy. He pointed at us and said, "I've already f* you and you and you in my fantasies. It was great." Like, no harm done. I didn't hear any of the women complain about that being unethical, not me, not anyone who I talked to. Instead, it seemed to be a humorous and arousing atmosphere for most of us. I didn't know many things he said did were unethical at the time.

We probably talked about fantasies. Maybe it was ethical, maybe not. I can't remember.

AbusivePDoc, though. I can't remember what brought it up, honestly. What I remember is he asked me if I had sexual fantasies about him. What I remember for sure is he wanted details. He wanted to know what I wore (in the fantasy) and what we did. The thing is, i remember I didn't have any sexual fantasies about him. I remember him asking for details. I remember making up a scenario.

My mind is stuck on him wanting details. Would that ever be ethical?

I don't know why my mind is stuck here. He went on to do exploitive things. He lost his license.

I think I am trying to figure out if he was already trying to groom me at this point. I don't know. Why would that make whatever happened any better or worse? It probably doesn't but my mind is stuck here.[/QUOTE]

Both of these situations are totally ****ed up. "I've already ****ed you and you and you in my mind and it was great?" Awful.

[feileacan]

I think it is the particular context that puts things into proper light. The plain fact of asking for details for me doesn't determine whether it is ethical or not. Most therapists know that the sexual stuff might be a cover for something else and the details might shed a light on what could be this something else. However, if this discussion doesn't fit logically into the larger picture of what is worked on in therapy and the client has a sense that this discussion is fulfilling the needs of the therapist then it is clearly unethical.

[precaryous]

Originally Posted by feileacan

I think it is the particular context that puts things into proper light. The plain fact of asking for details for me doesn't determine whether it is ethical or not. Most therapists know that the sexual stuff might be a cover for something else and the details might shed a light on what could be this something else. However, if this discussion doesn't fit logically into the larger picture of what is worked on in therapy and the client has a sense that this discussion is fulfilling the needs of the therapist then it is clearly unethical.

You have good points, here. I agree context is needed. I also agree just asking for details might not indicate a T is unethical.

This particular therapist eventually clearly was in it to get his needs met. It's difficult to know how far back in our relationship he decided to switch from helping me to meeting his own needs. Now, looking back, I'm not sure he ever wanted to help me.

He graduated from a respected medical school. He was not fresh out of school, but decided to open a practice in a tiny, poverty-stricken town. I'm sure that's not where he expected to be at that point of his life.
Maybe he just didn't care anymore. Idk.

Thank you for the feedback.

[smileygal]

I don't think questions about sex are unethical at all if they are asked in context. I imagine there is a lot of hidden meaning behind sexual desires/fantasies and some T's may be keen to unearth them. I also feel that perhaps some T's have heard so much about sex from clients that their tolerance levels of what is and is not appropriate to talk about is lower than the general public therefore perhaps are not sometimes as sensitive as they should be when discussing this?

I had a T who asked me once if I masturbated..... I was telling her about some issues I was having in my relationship particularly in relation to sex. Whilst I was very awkward but relatively okay talking about sex I wasn't very comfortable at all to talking to her about that aspect of things so immediately said so and asked if we could change the subject. She made a brief joke/comment about it and then obliged. I know the question was in context but I still wonder it's full relevance.....

[magicalprince]

Nah, there's no reason a professional should ever need to ask. It doesn't become malicious just at the point of asking, though it's not ever necessary. A T asking questions like that makes more sense when it's directly relevant to an issue you brought up yourself, and makes much less sense when you end up asking yourself why they asked.

I'm thinking that with therapists, a good rule is that if you're questioning their behavior in the first place, then chances are it actually is questionable.

T's fundamentally really shouldn't ever be "volunteering" anything. Not information, not interventions, not suggestions, nothing. They should always just be responding to, adding to, aiding with, or otherwise commenting on the things that you personally are bringing up. They should not be the one setting the topic or the agenda, or lecturing, or teaching, or preaching, or prying.

Nobody's perfect but, that's more or less the standard that they really should be held to. It takes a lot of maturity and self-control to truly fill those shoes.

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by magicalprince

I'm thinking that with therapists, a good rule is that if you're questioning their behavior in the first place, then chances are it actually is questionable.

.

I don't know if I agree with the above. Us clients question a lot of things that therapists do all the time (which is a good thing). This doesn't mean however that what they are doing is always questionable! We are all imperfect humans too. Yes, oftentimes we need to trust our gut and listen to ourselves if we genuinly feel something is off about them or what they are saying or doing is wrong but also there are times it's also just us being triggered/reacting/projecting/ruminating or imaginging things as we want to see them.

[magicalprince]

Originally Posted by smileygal

I don't know if I agree with the above. Us clients question a lot of things that therapists do all the time (which is a good thing). This doesn't mean however that what they are doing is always questionable! We are all imperfect humans too. Yes, oftentimes we need to trust our gut and listen to ourselves if we genuinly feel something is off about them or what they are saying or doing is wrong but also there are times it's also just us being triggered/reacting/projecting/ruminating or imaginging things as we want to see them.

True. I guess exactly as written it was too strict of me to say that. I think what I meant is that when you're consistently questioning their behavior then probably something is up. The personal worries and projections and doubts and stuff... it's just that a therapist shouldn't be giving you much to latch those worries onto. It's one thing if you're questioning your T in the same way you always question people around you... it's another thing if your T's behavior is coming off as odd/unusual and unexpected and you're asking yourself what the intentions behind it could possibly be.

It's like you said about trusting our gut. A lot of times we suppress our intuition in situations where it actually is saying something really important. You shouldn't have to end up doing this back-and-forth inside of wondering like, "was that really OK? was that not OK? But I think they feel such and such. But then they did something that makes me think different. But then it can't be that they really mean harm. But then this behavior was weird. But then but then...." etc.

That kind of inner conversation, I don't think it's normal to experience that if your T is really truly behaving consistently, ethically and professionally and is keeping their own emotional needs separate from the therapy. It's especially a bad sign if you make attempts to talk about it and feel like it is dismissed or brushed aside or avoided.