God, Archtypes, and Jungian Psychology

Totally 1oxbowgirl..... knowing because we've been there or had a climpse at what someone is going through.

Like you I've had to learn to adapt to my income being cut by more than half what it was when I had to leave my job. Consulting from my home to stay afloat without any more savings and without extended medical benefits. It is very stressful never knowing if I'm going to be well enough from week to week, month to month to pay the bills. I've gone weeks, even months living off credit because I'm not able to work. I know I can't push myself to work more but I can watch where the money goes and trade and barter when I can. I actually feel good about alot of the changes I've made in that area. Consuming less and recycling more is a good thing even if you have money to spare.

And it does give me a better appreciation for what others go through. I get paid well for what I do and that affords me more time not working. I don't have a stable income and somedays that concerns me and I have to give it up to God again and again to reassure me that I can survive anything. Certainly battling mental illness has increased my empathy and compassion for others and for myself too I guess.

Humility vs. Self Esteem: What Do Indian Students Need?

Jon Reyhner, Northern Arizona University

Hap Gilliland devotes a whole chapter to self-esteem in his excellent book Teaching the Native American and concludes, "self-esteem is the most important factor in achievement." This idea is fairly pervasive in educational circles, however, as I have come across lists of Indian values, it is the value of humility I see again and again, not self-esteem.
For example, the Hopi Tribe's official web page notes that their "lifeway...is based on humility, cooperation, respect and earth stewardship." The new National Museum of the American Indian's Anishanabe exhibit on the Mall in Washington, D.C. notes the teachings of their Seven Grandfathers include, along with wisdom, love, respect, bravery, honesty and truth, the teaching of "dbaadendizin—humility: You are equal to others, but you are not better." These are just two of many possible examples. Interestingly enough, the Judeo-Christian tradition also sees humility as a virtue that helps with spiritual growth.

Link: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~jar/AIE/IEThumility.html

Brent L. Top
Bruce A. Chadwick
Brigham Young University

How important is self-esteem? It is generally understood that self-esteem or lack of it affects the attitudes and actions of young and old alike. Whether we call it “self-esteem” or “self-respect” or refer to a “self-image” it is nonetheless an important aspect of life and directly linked to what we do or do not do in life. President Harold B. Lee, in his last General Conference as President of the Church, taught:

As I have prayerfully thought of the reasons why one chooses this course [of wickedness] . . . it seems to me that it all results from the failure of the individual to have self respect . . . . . . . when one does not have that love for himself . . . other consequences can be expected to follow. He ceases to love life. Or if he marries, he has lost love for his wife and children—no love of home or respect for the country in which he lives, and eventually he has lost his love for God. Rebellion in the land, disorder and the lack of love in the family, children disobedient to parents, loss of contact with God, all because that person has lost all respect for himself. . . .

Link: http://www.ldsmag.com/articles/031003selfesteem.html

Just to add a few “expert” opinions..

Great links NW.... In my culture we are taught that self-esteem, like happiness are the consequence of our choices. Living in accordance with our values. And yea, they don't include any reference to self.

Thanks.... good reading.

i think that finding a healthy balance between self-image and humility is what most monks would advise...

as we transcend, the need for self-image falls away and we give ourself more into the service of God and Gods' wishes.. we begin to recognise our own insignificance in lieu of serving the greater good.... personal desires fall away...

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Jerry Lipka and his colleagues in a study reported in their 1998 book Transforming the Culture of Schools that Alaskan Yup'ik teachers rejected the profuse "bubbly" praise of non-Yup'ik teachers. Traditional Yup'iks believe "overly praising will ruin a person." All of this made me think about all I hear in educational circles about the importance of boosting students' self-esteem. This interest led me to a 2003 review of the research on self-esteem by Roy F. Baumeister and his colleagues titled "Does High Self-Esteem Cause Better Performance, Interpersonal Success, Happiness, or Healthier Lifestyles?" They found that "the modest correlations between self-esteem and school performance do not indicate that high self-esteem leads to good performance" and that "efforts to boost the self-esteem of pupils have not been shown to improve academic performance and may sometimes be counterproductive."

They found that "those with high self-esteem show stronger in-group favoritism, which may increase prejudice and discrimination" and that "if anything, high self-esteem fosters experimentation which may increase early sexual activity or drinking, but in general effects of self-esteem are negligible." In an earlier review of the research, Baumeister and his colleagues found that bullies do not suffer from low self-esteem and that people with high-self esteem are more likely to react violently if that esteem is threatened. Baumeister wrote in the Summer 1996 issue of the American Educator, The self-esteem approach "is to skip over the hard work of changing our actions and instead just let us think we're nicer.... High self-esteem can mean confident and secure —but it can also mean conceited, arrogant, narcissistic, and egotistical."

Self-esteem should be a result of positive things we have done with our life, such as learning in school or helping others, rather than a birthright. Students can feel good about themselves based on the result of their effort and hard work they exert in and out of school. If we teach kids to read and do other things in school then they will feel a positive sense of accomplishment.

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As Baumeister writes "In practice, high self-esteem usually amounts to a person thinking that he or she is better than other people. If you think you're better than others, why should you listen to them, be considerate, or keep still when you want to do or say something?" It was once thought that people in prison had low self-esteem but studies are finding just the opposite.

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Americans generally don't suffer from low self-esteem. In fact it is just the opposite. Surveys have shown that 25 percent of Americans claimed to be in the top one percent and no students would admit to being below average.

So, if self-esteem is not that important for academic (and life) success, what is? Baumeister notes, "there is one psychological trait that schools could help instill and that is likely to pay off much better than self-esteem. That trait is self-control (including self-discipline)." Duckworth and Seligman in a 2005 Psychological Science article also emphasized the importance of self-discipline for academic success. Also, important is self-efficacy, the earned confidence through the development of competencies like reading.

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Amy Bergstrom, Linda Cleary and Thomas Peacock in their 2003 study of Indian youth titled The Seventh Generation found that "Identity development from an Indigenous perspective has less to do with striving for individualism and more to do with establishing connections and understanding ourselves in relation to all the things around us."

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link: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~jar/AIE/IEThumility.html

i think its important to weigh the social influences we have in America when navigating our spiritual course... i was always taught to have a high self esteem...

i was taught very little about humility and if it was discussed, the majority decided it was a way to be taken advantage of by others...

sad, but applicable... truth? i say not... humans make many errors in judgments... "meek" doesnt mean "weak" ... it means a humble approach to the overwhelmingness of living...

many "meek" people have risen against injustice... Jesus himself carried the qualities of meekness... and Sidhartha Buddha lived a life of asthetics... in America, we've fallen away from humility as a way of life in my opinion.....

our role models (Americas' achetypes) are often surrounded by the luxuries and entrapments of materialism.. and we aspire to be just like them...

what result has that had and what is that mindsets' contribution to Americas state of affairs?

Happens as we age too. lol. I remember when I dropped a bunch of weight due to illness. I'd fought the chubbies all my life but when it happened later in life I reacted with 'bad timing!!' Body image just ain't the be all and end all it once was for me. But the same can be true about valuing economic wealth. Doesn't have the same appeal to me anymore. There are more measures of success for me now than when I was young.

I think you are right about finding a healthy balance between self image and humility. I do see them in different realms though. Self image being an effect of humility. One's ability to be humble is dependant on one's ability to see themselves accurately. Low self esteem can cause one to be anything less than humble.

They become self absorbed and disrespectful.... speaking from my own experiences battling low self esteem. So warped a perspective that everything centres around me and my feelings, my reactions, my ugly sense of myself. No humility at all. Just angry, bossy, judgemental and an all around pain to be around.

I had to reach a place of real conviction to see how my low image of myself was reflecting my image of God. That got me to turn my thinking around pretty quickly. Now when I hear myself cursing myself I apologize to God and get my thinking back on track before it takes me into a royal pity party.

you've come a long way chocolatelover...

we've gained these three things today...

we understand and recognize a need for:

a healthy regard for all others... this is neither love abundant nor hate eternal....

a healthy sense of self-image... based upon our individual accomplishments in both physical and spiritual work...

a strong sense of humbleness... knowing that God is Superior, man is inferior...

i think we each have probably considered and applied these concepts in our individual lives, but it is a first in that we have reached these understandings mutually, together, and in this public forum...

i am still interested in exploring panantheism.. what we've learned about each other today will no doubt be applicable should we choose to transcend higher into the theories of God Spirit...

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I really enjoyed the article on self-esteem, and chocolatelover's observations as well.

Still muddling on this one for myself... I think I have an okay sense of self-esteem. I do know that I do some things well and I suppose there is a part of me that wants that to be recognized -- I just don't want to be praised for it. Possibly because when I do something, I'm seldom doing it for praise. I'm doing it because I enjoy it, or because it's important to me, or because I find it meaningful, or because I derive a sense of pleasure from the activity.

Maybe it's a matter of this underlying motive being correctly perceived. For example, someone here sent me a note the other day to let me know that they've found my blogs to be helpful to them. That really meant a lot to me because that's why I put those blogs together -- to help other people, and it really feels good when someone lets me know that they have been helped as a result. However if someone was to say, "You're such a good person to do that," I'm sure I would cringe and just want to retreat. My motives had nothing to do with wanting to be a good person. If someone was to say that, I might feel that they misunderstood what I was actually trying to do and that would create discomfort in me.

I'm not sure if I've accurately portrayed the process, but it's something like that.

s_e...

sorry you're struggling with this issue of self-image... so much emphasis is placed on it in USA ...

i struggled too, i guess my whole life, even before the fall..

maybe this is the point where my dreams and fantasies relative to archetypes played a big part for me...

after my fall, i traveled about meeting various individuals, absorbing the wide offering of lessons available in books, movies, and music... opening my eyes and mind, i came across different character types... (main actors or characters in stories and real life)

i was attracted to them because those who have found an inner contentment carry with them an apparant "glow" .. a charisma...

they dress in their own style, carry themswelves with a certain confidence, bloom in their full self-apprehension...

for someone looking for their way in life, such an individual can carry great attraction, and, i made a concsious effort to get closer to these types, to understand more about them and what they might know that could help me..

as i spent time with them and learned from them, certain character traits they affected were somehow transplanted onto me...

in conversations i would ask questions and muse over the answers, adapting them to my own philosophies and in this way, parts of them became parts of me...

one very interesting aspect of these peoples personality was the entirety of which their being seemed to espouse their belief systems and it was this energy i drew from...

i not only "heard" them, in ways, i became them...

when my ego had collapsed and receded to darkness, there was a great void, and it was my task to re-fill it with something, otherwise i'd have remained an empty shell of a person... i first studied philosophies, in an atempt to gain greater understanding, to find the "key" to that which i had inexplicably lost..

i'm sure i was introduced to "archetype theory" originally in this way.. to find a personal leader... i was driven to emulate the great thinkers of all time...

these character types suited my needs.... their persona satisfied my need for strong, valuable, positive direction..

in this way they assisted my blank and undefined self-image... i "adopted" personality traits temporarily, always knowing it was not the "real" me, but, it'd have to do... and i would often trade one character for another... in time, i'd built a few characters in my mind and could "switch" when needed..

obviously i had more fun with some than others and it was those which seemed to feed my inner fire that i became more closely associated with and which took greater form, expanding/collapsing, creating thier own means of endurance and resilience... becoming evermore personally adapted to my own ideas of right/wrong and the shades of gray...

my attachment to these "character types" grew in time... i found myself experiencing the life and course of the archetype.. good and bad...

these personas led me to grander thought and imagery... once that force was in motion, i guess the rest has been inevitable...

good luck s_e.... i wonder if you can relate to this...

i want to add that i'm sorry... i seem to be "pushing" this conversation in a direction i, my selfish self, would like it to move forward.... i am retreating... please let the conversation take its natural course, i will only attempt to keep it on topic....

you all matter so much... thank you...

acually i think we all do that to a certain extent
I read this and understood it all ..........sheep small brain LOL

s_e.... i am slowly getting to read these various links.... i am grateful for the link re: Tonglen practice... ive been performing breathing techniques with my meditations... Tonglen easily adapts to it... i will remember...

sorry i typed right over the top of you (((muffy))) ... thank you, i didnt know if everyone did this... its been highly influential on me... intense... i suppose because of the ego collapse? broken memories, missing memories, massive confusion, not just areas of blankness, but huge volumes... there wan an urgency....

ive found it interesting, but not judgmentally, that many ive known who suffer a mental illness still retain elements of a self, a presence of personality...

pitiful me... i lost everything except knowledge of English language... i could say hi, but blank following...

words had to be re-defined, re-evaluated... all of them...

i felt like a baby in so many ways and i lacked the ability to express what was happening to me...

its taken my whole life to learn how to express the thoughts ive shared here, and without help from all of you, i would still be attempting to uncover deeply buried parts of myself... its so much better to share than isolate...

while i'm here, my conscience is requiring that i clarify..

nowheretorun said:

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we've gained these three things today...

we understand and recognize a need for:

a healthy regard for all others... this is neither love abundant nor hate eternal....

a healthy sense of self-image... based upon our individual accomplishments in both physical and spiritual work...

a strong sense of humbleness... knowing that God is Superior, man is inferior...

i think we each have probably considered and applied these concepts in our individual lives, but it is a first in that we have reached these understandings mutually, together, and in this public forum...

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these are assumptions i have made for each of us... i apologise for my error...

i apologise i havent taken the time to considerately reply to everyone and that my navigational skills are in need of improvement...

you all have added essential and insightful comments and i would like to take this moment to reflect on the individual contributions you each have made...

i am deeply grateful... thank you...

Perna: your witicisms and intelligence combined together inspire me to always find the supportive method..

Coralproper: youre honesty and integrity are admirable traits… I share your dedication to discovering the truth …

1oxbowgirl: our conversation has been enriched with your caring and cautions… you are one of a kind…

Sky: you’ve challenged me intellectually to dig deeper and express more clearly…

Jinny: your friendship has been an anchor…

Freewill: I will always admire youre grace of expression, the purity of your intention, your courage in the faces of adversity… your leadership by example…

Rapunzel: as moderator of this forum your consideration has made this discussion more possible.. as an individual, your depth of thought always inspires be to be more expansive and more selfless…

SeptMorn: your honest searching and examples of strength despite the obstacles encourage me…

KathyM: I have yet to detect discrimination.. you’ve supported all and exhibited personal character against many odds… you’re a survivor and a gift I can learn from… thank you..

GardnerGirl: I share the questing space with you… I’m here to learn… don’t worry that you’ve missed some parts… they can be gone over anytime.. I am also behind in reading all the links myself… some ive covered in previous searchings, some are entirely new… im thankful for what time you have taken and appreciative of the difficulty in understanding a great amount of this information.. it takes time..

Chocolatelover: how can I describe a kind spirit, a giver of love and grace, a gentle soul who aspires to the greatest good? Walk in Beauty….

Muffy: are all sheep this wise? (((hugs))) thank you for being a friend…

Whoever: thanks for taking time to read and contribute.. we are all learning….

S_e: finally one other? Meeting you has been a highpoint in my journey.

Doc John: what needs to be said? Thank you with all sincerity…

to late to edit this miscommunication... clarified here:

nowheretorun said:

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they dress in their own style, carry themswelves with a certain confidence, bloom in their full self-apprehension...

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it should have been stated as: "...bloom in their full self-'comprehension'" ...

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NW, I don't think there's any need for you to apologize for the direction the thread goes. It goes the way it goes, with input from a number of people. If it zigzags in that course, it's all the more interesting.

NW: after my fall, i traveled about meeting various individuals, absorbing the wide offering of lessons available in books, movies, and music... opening my eyes and mind, i came across different character types... (main actors or characters in stories and real life)

This action personifies one of the stages I've identified as helpful in recovery. That is, to find a mentor, or many mentors. The people who are where you want to be are the ones who can provide tips and insights on how to get there.

when my ego had collapsed and receded to darkness, there was a great void...

If we were to apply the model of The Hero's Journey to such experiences, this stage would equate with The Abyss.

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Into the Abyss

When we reach the Abyss, we face the greatest challenge of the journey. The challenge is so great at this point that we must surrender ourselves completely to the adventure and become one with it. In the Abyss we usually face our greatest fear, and we must face it alone. Here is where he must "slay the dragon," which often takes the shape of confrontation we dread, a great fear we have repressed or deep need we must resolve.


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It can be a very difficult stage. I've referred to it as the place where time melts. At least, that was my experience of it.

S_e: finally one other? Meeting you has been a highpoint in my journey.

I'll try to sit humbly with that one. :-) I can appreciate the sentiment however. It's been rare that I've been able to find other people who can identify with my experience. I look forward to "swapping more notes" as our personal schedules permit. Meantime, glad to know you enjoyed the tonglen link -- it's one of my personal favorites.

Heros Journey is another great link s_e ...

one of the links described the comprehension of "time" during psychosis as a "coil" versus linear... i've been unable to relocate that segment...

could you elaborate?

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NM: one of the links described the comprehension of "time" during psychosis as a "coil" versus linear...

Kundalini is considered to be a form of energy "coiled" at the base of the spine; it's also associated with the Hindu Goddess Kali whose name means "Time". Here's two links as related to Kali. Perhaps it was one of them?

[*] Night Enfolds Her Cloak of Holes
[*] Kali -- The Divine Mother

gee.... you guys have been busy.... I'll have to catch up another time. Just had a bit of a rant on another thread and need to pull away to centre myself again. Will come back later and sink into the discussion here again.

Did catch your kind words about me NW.... what a sweetheart.... I feel honoured and truly blessed by your gifts to me. It just may go to my head.... time to go centre myself now for sure. lol.

Take care...........

ps.... SE.... love the music you've been posting....thanks for the special treats.

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chocolatelover: love the music you've been posting...

lol. Yes, well, I always say that those who aren't listening to the music are missing half the story. All the songs are of great significance to me. It's always nice to find another music lover as well. :-)

chocolatelover... exercise good self care... sending good wishes that you'll soon re-center and what is disturbing will quickly pass

s_e ... i think the music links are great with one problem... the old laptop cant play them...

took a little searching but i found what i was referring to..

spiritual emergency said:

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In keeping with Jungian theory, by the time you get to the Self you are dealing with the God archetype -- a form of consciousness, energy, divinity that is beyond duality. "God" is both everything, balanced in perfect proportion, and beyond everything. To truly encounter "God" at this level of being is a shattering experience to the "human mortal". I recall reading somewhere that when Saul encountered "God" on the road to Damascus, it took him ten years to recover adequately enough that he could begin his ministry. To give an example from my own experience... try to imagine a timeline that contains everything that has ever happened or ever will happen. Now, condense that line into a ball so that everything that has ever happened or ever will happen is happening in one exact moment that never ends. Our little human mortal minds can wrap itself around that concept. If we didn't have time organized into a past, present or future, we couldn't function. "God" is way beyond that and this is something we must bear in mind in attempting to speak of that force, or energy, or divine intelligence, or however we attempt to contain that within words.

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it causes me to think of the familiar winding coil seen often in mystic imagery...

like the tail portion of this image at Nazca...



to imagine a timeline in the shape youv'e decribed appears as an image in my mind like the monkey tail.. its interesting to think of time in this way... but your example describes the coil of time as being connected at each end... to me that symbolizes an endless cycle... in turn, what that idea does for me is that it sounds like a ride one can get on, but never get off from ... of course, that is me, and you are you...

s_e ... i personally like the idea of transcending any continuos cycle... even if we loved life and never felt pain, after a million re-incarnations, i'm going to be tired! i cant accept that God would torture me that way..

i'm only doing the following as an experiment...

if i instead used the image of the coil in the monkeys tail as an imaginary timeline, it has a beginning (the monkeys nose?) and a point of departure (the base of the tail) ...

i can use that imagery in my meditations about recovery... being an Earthly form i can use the monkey to represent the conflict, the abyss ... monkeys have human like qualities such as a brain with complex and contradictive desires...

i can meditate, imagine, and use the imagery to meditatively experience the healing process for its entire duration, with begining and departure point...

to the unexposed i suppose this process sounds ridiculous..

i have faith in the benefits of visual meditations, breathing techniques, and many Eastern practices... i can testify to the calming and curing benefits in first person..

so this is an example of what i might do with these components as a source of self-healing...

using imagination to heal... similar to the mandala work ive done.... as each figure is carefully placed on the page, in an exact position to maintain geometric conformity, keeping the energies balanced... i can feel these energies as i draw... its quite remarkable... when the drawing is complete i am usually filled with whatever emotional charge was associated, a feeling that can last days, months, and years...

the meditative technique has an ability to plant whatever vision an individual concentrates on into a deeper level of concsiousness, probably the way hypnosis works.. but rather than long pages and volumes of complicated ideas, the symbolism replaces difficult theory with simple objects or shapes, and leaves impressions that are like keys opening a larger room... a symbol can be made personal... a heart shape for one may represent love, but for another, love lost, and so on...

in this image several religious symbols are used to express a circle of faiths...

surrounding and within faith is the "other" ... the beyond, the transcendent God..

the image is geometrically balanced by the presence of the surrounding circle (God Spirit), making all other imperfections in design thus perfected.. an entire theory and representation of complicated ideas condensed into a small and easily memorized design...

tombs of writings are contained within this simple image...



as encompassing as the image appears, we're told even if one could memorize the full text of all material related to God, it would fall short of microscopically representing the all of God Spirit...

Just re-read the article you posted NW..... What Is Spiritual Freedom?
By Carey Kinsolving Platinum Quality Author

It was very timely for me to read it again and be reminded of the message of freedom. In light of other recent events this quote spoke to me.....

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Have you ever noticed the faces of those who try to find life apart from God? The strain of life in the sandbox shows. In our hearts, we know there must be something more, but few have the courage to question prejudices they inherit from culture, friends, family, false religion and tyrants. Of course, our own bad decisions play a role in keeping us confined as well because we tend to justify ourselves rather than admit our guilt.

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It reminded me not only are there prejudices in the world that need to be questioned but I have my own prejudices to overcome everyday. My limited tolerance for one. My limited ability to meet people where they are at in their spiritual quest without judgement and prejudice or a sense of urgency to 'show them the light'. Another lesson in humilty NW.

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Some would like to portray spiritual freedom as only a call to give up something, but it's more of a call to gain something greater. Writer C.S. Lewis once compared our spiritual blindness to a small child's fixation with his sandbox. When his parents remove him from the sandbox for a vacation at the beach, he may kick, scream and cry. But all this ceases at the first sight of beach, sand dunes and vast ocean horizons. Suddenly, the sandbox isn't so appealing.

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I'm a huge... I mean HUGE fan of C.S. Lewis. I credit him for bringing me to the Lord with his book Mere Christianity. It was my introduction to Christianity that wasn't prejudiced by what I'd seen 'in the flesh'. Lewis showed me the heart of Christianity. He set the stage for me to explore my spiritual essence without walls and limits. I'm also a fan of Lewis' other writings. Think I've read the Hobbit at least 10 times over the years. Love the riddles and enjoy the hobbit life philosophy. Take it easy, take it slow, be good to your guests and neighbours, pick your battles carefully and enjoy every minute of the gift of life you have been given.

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The problem isn't that we're seeking too much pleasure but that we're settling for too little. We're so infatuated with our little mud pies in the sandbox that we can't see the vast oceans and continents God would have us explore.

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How true hey..... not enough laughter therapy perhaps. Reminds me to put more laughing moments in my days. When my son was younger I used to deliberately make sure we had at least 1 laughing fit a day. It was my way of trying to make up for all my hours of isolation that denied him access to me. I tried to make up for that by making the most of the time I did give to him. Full of love and laughter. It was good therapy for me and an expression of love I could give to my son. It also reminds me not to take life sooooo seriously. Also a good reminder to get out from behind the 'walls of safety' I've so carefully put into place and start to expand my horizons again. I'm not done yet in other words.

Lots more reading here to catch up on but thought I'd start there since it spoke so strongly to me.