[chaotic13]

Earlier this week I posted a thread about this in the Psychotherapy Forum. My thoughts have kind of spun off from a specific issue that has been really troubling me, but I can’t seem to approach it directly with my T … into something much deeper. So I thought I would bring the deeper discussion here for people who reflect on this stuff a lot and have opinions.
Like many people, I seem to get stuck in a perpetual self-loathing cycle that has some really wondrous parts and some very harmful parts. At the moment I seem to be coming out of the very harmful part. And I wanted to explore the spiritual side of it and the duality that seems to exist not just within me but within humans.
The words I’ve written to describe myself over the past few weeks have been… a beast, a spawn of Satan, a cancer cell in the body of God. However, as I’ve expressed these things at the very same time, I was also expressing a genuine concern about Being these things, a desire to be something other than evil, a sense that I have an important positive contributions to make, a belief that deep inside I am connected to an incredibly powerful positive energy that is telling me that I am no evil, I am one of the infinite ways that GOD manifests itself in the universe. I avoid using a gender specific pronoun here not to make GOD an object. My vision of GOD at the moment is of something that is formless and not limited to some patriarchal/matriarchal concept.
Anyway, today I can’t help but wonder…How can I be truly evil, if I am feeling ashamed and guilty for being evil? If I were truly evil or just an animal, without cognition or an inherently righteous (GOOD) soul, I wouldn’t care if I were evil? But I do care? At least sometimes I care. J Does the fact that I care mean I am inherently GOOD? If so, why when I feel deep instinctual things I’m considered to be EVIL or entertaining unrighteous thoughts? I am EVIL again?
What are your thoughts on this? Do you believe that mankind’s true nature is inherently evil? If you don’t believe that we are inherently evil, why do you think we are often taught that some of our deep human needs or at least our instinctual drive to meet these needs is evil? Of course one deep need I’m referring to is sexual or physical connection, but there are others (at least I think there are). I guess I am just wondering is there REALLY a GOOD and EVIL or is this just a concept that mankind has developed?
(I get that maybe my negative self image was something given to me by others in childhood--this post isn't intended to be about abuse and its effects.) It about the concept of GOOD and EVIL and if this is a concept limited to man.

[PainInMySawdust]

Originally Posted by chaotic13

Earlier this week I posted a thread about this in the Psychotherapy Forum. My thoughts have kind of spun off from a specific issue that has been really troubling me, but I can’t seem to approach it directly with my T … into something much deeper. So I thought I would bring the deeper discussion here for people who reflect on this stuff a lot and have opinions.
Like many people, I seem to get stuck in a perpetual self-loathing cycle that has some really wondrous parts and some very harmful parts. At the moment I seem to be coming out of the very harmful part. And I wanted to explore the spiritual side of it and the duality that seems to exist not just within me but within humans.
The words I’ve written to describe myself over the past few weeks have been… a beast, a spawn of Satan, a cancer cell in the body of God. However, as I’ve expressed these things at the very same time, I was also expressing a genuine concern about Being these things, a desire to be something other than evil, a sense that I have an important positive contributions to make, a belief that deep inside I am connected to an incredibly powerful positive energy that is telling me that I am no evil, I am one of the infinite ways that GOD manifests itself in the universe. I avoid using a gender specific pronoun here not to make GOD an object. My vision of GOD at the moment is of something that is formless and not limited to some patriarchal/matriarchal concept.
Anyway, today I can’t help but wonder…How can I be truly evil, if I am feeling ashamed and guilty for being evil? If I were truly evil or just an animal, without cognition or an inherently righteous (GOOD) soul, I wouldn’t care if I were evil? But I do care? At least sometimes I care. J Does the fact that I care mean I am inherently GOOD? If so, why when I feel deep instinctual things I’m considered to be EVIL or entertaining unrighteous thoughts? I am EVIL again?
What are your thoughts on this? Do you believe that mankind’s true nature is inherently evil? If you don’t believe that we are inherently evil, why do you think we are often taught that some of our deep human needs or at least our instinctual drive to meet these needs is evil? Of course one deep need I’m referring to is sexual or physical connection, but there are others (at least I think there are). I guess I am just wondering is there REALLY a GOOD and EVIL or is this just a concept that mankind has developed?
(I get that maybe my negative self image was something given to me by others in childhood--this post isn't intended to be about abuse and its effects.) It about the concept of GOOD and EVIL and if this is a concept limited to man.

Good and Evil are polarized moral concepts, they are made up by humans. I think that empathy should be used when deciding on actions. By empathizing how your action will affect others you can make an informed choice. If you cannot feel empathy, then you need to rely on the moral codes that have evolved over time...

I would concentrate on trying to forget good and evil.. every action is based on a complex structure of contexts.. therefore very few actions can be judged the same... by using simple childish black and white concepts like good and evil I think we are robbing ourselves of what it is to be a fully (as full as possible given the limits) developed human.

[nowheretorun]

this question is very simple for me... there is only health or non health...

wishing and praying for health for all

[moodyblu]

Originally Posted by PainInMySawdust

Good and Evil are polarized moral concepts, they are made up by humans. I think that empathy should be used when deciding on actions. By empathizing how your action will affect others you can make an informed choice. If you cannot feel empathy, then you need to rely on the moral codes that have evolved over time...

I would concentrate on trying to forget good and evil.. every action is based on a complex structure of contexts.. therefore very few actions can be judged the same... by using simple childish black and white concepts like good and evil I think we are robbing ourselves of what it is to be a fully (as full as possible given the limits) developed human.

Originally Posted by chaotic13

Earlier this week I posted a thread about this in the Psychotherapy Forum. My thoughts have kind of spun off from a specific issue that has been really troubling me, but I can’t seem to approach it directly with my T … into something much deeper. So I thought I would bring the deeper discussion here for people who reflect on this stuff a lot and have opinions.
Like many people, I seem to get stuck in a perpetual self-loathing cycle that has some really wondrous parts and some very harmful parts. At the moment I seem to be coming out of the very harmful part. And I wanted to explore the spiritual side of it and the duality that seems to exist not just within me but within humans.
The words I’ve written to describe myself over the past few weeks have been… a beast, a spawn of Satan, a cancer cell in the body of God. However, as I’ve expressed these things at the very same time, I was also expressing a genuine concern about Being these things, a desire to be something other than evil, a sense that I have an important positive contributions to make, a belief that deep inside I am connected to an incredibly powerful positive energy that is telling me that I am no evil, I am one of the infinite ways that GOD manifests itself in the universe. I avoid using a gender specific pronoun here not to make GOD an object. My vision of GOD at the moment is of something that is formless and not limited to some patriarchal/matriarchal concept.
Anyway, today I can’t help but wonder…How can I be truly evil, if I am feeling ashamed and guilty for being evil? If I were truly evil or just an animal, without cognition or an inherently righteous (GOOD) soul, I wouldn’t care if I were evil? But I do care? At least sometimes I care. J Does the fact that I care mean I am inherently GOOD? If so, why when I feel deep instinctual things I’m considered to be EVIL or entertaining unrighteous thoughts? I am EVIL again?
What are your thoughts on this? Do you believe that mankind’s true nature is inherently evil? If you don’t believe that we are inherently evil, why do you think we are often taught that some of our deep human needs or at least our instinctual drive to meet these needs is evil? Of course one deep need I’m referring to is sexual or physical connection, but there are others (at least I think there are). I guess I am just wondering is there REALLY a GOOD and EVIL or is this just a concept that mankind has developed?
(I get that maybe my negative self image was something given to me by others in childhood--this post isn't intended to be about abuse and its effects.) It about the concept of GOOD and EVIL and if this is a concept limited to man.

I remember once that my emotion for a particular feeling was misconstrued as to “being under a conviction from God” , to which now I know can simply be called “guilt” for something that I had unconsciously blocked from my mind long ago.
We are born into this world unknowing, blank slates to which others that are close sometimes may write on and clutter with bits of there own lives, egos often superimposing our innocence with their nonsense/knowledge of how we are supposed to behave…adjust. By our dependence of those figures, our early lives may take on complexities that mirror or mimic what was shown to us….be it called immoral or just by many of humanities standards.
I really feel that a great part, if not the whole of our freedoms, lie in the conscious knowing that we are mostly not what we have been structured to believe we are and that by allowing ourselves to become that blank slate again, perhaps then we may begin to understand that we just “are” and that we are born neither “good” nor “bad” but gifts from “God”, free to consciously choose what is right and just for us in this world...this life.
Yes, ”empathy”, or allowing ourselves to feel and think more for others and the world in which we reside would be a positive step for living this consciousness anew.
Go in peace and love. Hurt no-one. Live life again.

[Shelle]

I don't know what to think about good & evil , some people do eveil acts and have no remorse. Some people are incredibly giving with no expectations of something in return. I think most people are good by nature and try to be decent to each other.

[Rhapsody]

I think we are all capable of good and evil.... and the one that grows (is active) is the one we feed, indulge in.

[nowheretorun]

healthy thoughts are healthy thoughts, regardless of the origination point... unhealthy is unhealthy, regardless of the origination point.... best to all always

[chaotic13]

I think I believe that the concept of good and evil is something man created. I think there are certain standards that are healthy for the individual and healthy for the community in which the individual is a apart of. I think these standard are considered GOOD. Behaviors that are unhealthy-lead to either physical or emotional harm of the individual or create conflict, disruption, unhealthiness withing to larger community are label EVIL.

I guess I was just wondering was the concept of GOD alway part of our existence or was it something that just developed as we started to live in larger communities. I don't know just seems like if you look at the Christian version of things the was GOD, then man, ALL WAS GOOD. Then man ate from the tree of Knowledge and boom now he is evil...struggling to make is way back to GOD.

IDK what I was thinking at this point in our evolution... Did we as a species have to create the concept of a powerful, omnipresent, Supreme Being that is totally separate and beyond corruption to keep us from following our self-centered, pleasure seeking, survival of the fittest animal instincts and potentially extinguishing all life as we perceive it?
Or did good and evil exist before mankind. IDK just rambling mind I guess.

[nowheretorun]

well, imo, man was formed somehow... many ideas have been put forth on this and unless we travel back in time, we cant know... so, i imagine there was an original cave we all stayed in... just like now, there were relationship issues.... struggling to get along with each other from the beginning... and ... we still are... when we look at the destructive capabilities of our own weapons it makes me wish they had found the way to get along way back then, but, there was enough space in those days so i spose the one group just moved out and started thier own cave family.... here we are now.. still trying to get along together and cave space is somewhat less available... still, i know we can do it

Originally Posted by chaotic13

I guess I was just wondering was the concept of GOD alway part of our existence or was it something that just developed as we started to live in larger communities. I don't know just seems like if you look at the Christian version of things the was GOD, then man, ALL WAS GOOD. Then man ate from the tree of Knowledge and boom now he is evil...struggling to make is way back to GOD.

i don't think scripture teaches that once man ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that man became "evil". mankind did fall though. we screw up (sin) and are fallen but we are still created in the image of God. that image is distorted now though, not like it was in eden. considering how much evil (actions not people) there is in the world i don't think it is too difficult to believe that life is not the way it was supposed to be initially. i don't think jesus would say that we can see him in the faces of the poor etc. if we were evil. that wouldn't make any sense.

chaotic, it sounds as if you were probably raised in a very conservative or fundamentalist environment. sadly, i know far too many people who were raised that way and who really struggle spiritually because of the damage done to them in the name of christianity. mostly, what they got was religion and not christ. they are so not the same thing. i wasn't raised like that and the God i know is loving and kind but holy too. ok, sometimes God completely exasperates me - usually when not doing what i want - lol, but God is not a mean bully even if some of his followers are.

[madisgram]

i really liked the questions you posed.
here's my spin on it, jme. i believe there is a power greater than ourselves that is good not evil. i believe we are inhererently good because we are a part of that power greater than ourselves. i believe it is the natural state we "are". i believe we were given a conscience to help us stay good. there are times that we are tempted by this world of "things". sometimes we give in to our need to take, to covet, to enjoy, even if in the long run we would be happier, more content, if we did not make that selfish choice or evil choice if u will. i believe that because we have free will things entice us sometimes to choose the not as wise choice for us in the long run. sometimes it's because it's easier to give in than to do the next right thing we think or want. our goodness helps us build character and integrity. if we follow these lines good things result for us and also for our fellow man. when we give in to "evil" usually it not only has a negative affect in ourselves but also others. there are some ppl that seem to be totally evil but i do not believe they were born that way. their environment may cause them to skew the truth about themselves. as a result their skewed truths and actions thereafter have a negative impact on others and themselves. they give in to impulsivity and take what they want in spite of harm to others.
you shared your questions about yourself, evil vs. good. all of us stuggle to be good i think. it's not always the easiest path or so we think.
basically we are good ppl, imho. our conscience is there to guide us. i don't think it makes us evil when we are tempted to do things in excess. what i do believe is how we act on these temptations. when we give in to them we are not totally evil. our action may be evil but our inner self is good. we conflict with who we really are when we allow evil to overcome our goodness.
hope i've stayed within the guidlines doc john requested we follow. i tried to do so. hope i have offended no one with my beliefs on this topic.

[Safron]

chaotic13,

We become what we think about the most. If you think you are "a beast, a spawn of Satan, a cancer cell in the body of God" you may be creating these things in you. And just as those thoughts can materialise so can these, "having a sense that I have an important positive contributions to make, a belief that deep inside I am connected to an incredibly powerful positive energy". It's all about what we think about the most.

Does the fact that I care mean I am inherently GOOD?

Yes.

When talking to my T once about all the guilt I felt for the things I had put other people through and what a bad person I thought I was, he reassured me that only good people felt guilt. Bad people don't give a sh** about how they have made other people feel. Sound familiar?

Do you believe that mankind’s true nature is inherently evil? If you don’t believe that we are inherently evil, why do you think we are often taught that some of our deep human needs or at least our instinctual drive to meet these needs is evil?

We were taught these things by people who were ignorant of the true nature of all human beings, people whose main priority was to pay bills and keep us alive.

Wants and needs are not evil. Our primitive nature took what it needed and did what it had to in order to survive. We can rise above our primitive nature, we can learn for ourselves what our needs and wants are, we can learn to recognise genuine human needs, including some of the things that we have been lead to believe are wrong or evil, and we can decide the truth for ourselves.

At the core of your being you are a good person.

We don't have to struggle to be good.
All we have to be is our true selves.

Taken from - As A Man Thinketh by James Allen

"Man is made or unmade by himself; in the armoury of thought he forges the weapons by which he destroys himself. He also fashions the tools with which he builds for himself heavenly mansions of joy and strength and peace. By the right choice and true application of thought, man ascends to the Divine Perfection; by the abuse and wrong application of thought, he descends below the level of the beast. Between these two extremes are all the grades of character, and man is their maker and master."

"Only by much searching and mining are gold an diamonds obtained, and man can find every truth connected with his being if he will dig deep into the mine of his soul. And that he is the maker of his character, the moulder of his life, and the builder of his destiny, he may unerringly prove: if he will watch, control, and alter his thoughts, tracing their effects upon himself, upon others, and upon his life and circumstances; if he will link cause and effect by patient practice and investigation, utilizing his every experience, even to the most trivial, as a means of obtaining that knowledge of himself. In this direction, as in no other, is the law absolute that "He that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened"; for only by patience, practice, and ceaseless importunity can a man enter the Door of the Temple of Knowledge."

[chaotic13]

Originally Posted by reflection

i don't think scripture teaches that once man ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that man became "evil". mankind did fall though. we screw up (sin) and are fallen but we are still created in the image of God.

Reflections... Thanks for that point of clarification. Especially the separation between BEING and DOING/BEHAVING.

madisgram... I guess on good days, I feel the higher energy source I connect with when I am "in the flow" or have listen to that inner voice and reaped abundance that I even conceived of. But then there are the separated days where you feel lost and disconnected. Where you remember past transgressions and get caught up in all the things you've been told by others. These are the days when I start questioning...if there is this positive energy source that is capable of doing amazing things, there is likely a similar negative energy source that is just as capable of doing horrid things. Sometimes I'm not exactly sure were on the continum I am. Maybe thats because...I move a lot. LOL

Safron... I think sometimes the only thing that can sometime pull me out of my "I AM EVIL" funk is my recognition that I feel really bad about it and then realize "evil people, don't feel bad, ashamed, guilty".

Here is one for the group John Dewey once said, "the deepest urge in human nature is the desire to be important." If feeling loved and appreciated and wanting to feel like you matter to others is a basic human need. Why is it if we acknowledge this desire, express it, or take actions to get others to appreciate us more, we are often labeled a butt-kisser, pride seeker, needy, or whatever. I know any urge can lead us to excessive behavior that can be unhealthy. I'm just curious, about this. There are a lot of things that I feel that I've been taught are wrong or sinful. Safron you mentioned "our primitive nature", why is it often evil to act in accord with our primitive nature, even if it might not hurt or affect anyone else?

I guess it just comes down to how you go about meeting the need.

oops! i didn't realize we weren't supposed to talk about anything specific to our faiths. apologies for that.

[chaotic13]

I guess I should be the one apologizing. You were only responding to my example. I don't know enough about other faiths to generate examples. I likely demonstrated that I really don't know enough about my own faith's teachings to make comments...so Sorry.

[Safron]

I think sometimes the only thing that can sometime pull me out of my "I AM EVIL" funk is my recognition that I feel really bad about it and then realize "evil people, don't feel bad, ashamed, guilty".

It doesn't matter what pulls you out so long as something does.

It's the same with communication. It doesn't matter how we communicate, face to face, by letters and notes, or on the net, so long as we communicate.

"The deepest urge in human nature is the desire to be important."

I don't agree with that statement but that's neither here nor there.

If feeling loved and appreciated and wanting to feel like you matter to others is a basic human need. Why is it if we acknowledge this desire, express it, or take actions to get others to appreciate us more, we are often labelled a butt-kisser, pride seeker, needy, or whatever.

We don’t need to ‘get’ others to appreciate us more. If we are going about it in the right way the appreciation is there. I can be of service to others without feeling any of those things. But then I think I might be a few years older than you. Forgive me but I believe you may have a bit of growing to do in that area. When you are giving or doing for others it should come from a place that expects nothing in return - this is genuine generosity. Give first take later but don't hold your breath. When you are truly giving and doing for others just for the pleasure of doing so, you won't feel any of those things you mentioned.

It is important to give graciously but it is also important to be able to receive graciously.

I know any urge can lead us to excessive behavior that can be unhealthy. I'm just curious, about this. There are a lot of things that I feel that I've been taught are wrong or sinful.

I think what you believe and feel to be true may be down to a belief system other than your own. Today we are very fortunate to have the world wide web, we can do our own research and create our own belief system - choosing to believe only that which rings true to the deepest part of us and not just what other people have told us.

Safron you mentioned "our primitive nature", why is it often evil to act in accord with our primitive nature, even if it might not hurt or affect anyone else?

I don't believe acting according to our primitive nature is evil. However I do believe that we owe it to ourselves to rise above our primitive nature.

I guess it just comes down to how you go about meeting the need.

Maybe. But I believe it comes down to the choices we make.

[madisgram]

"Where you remember past transgressions and get caught up in all the things you've been told by others. These are the days when I start questioning..."
you stated.
*********
i want to 'double dip" on this topic, chaotic. to reference some of the things you have posted about yourself. not to be clinical but this is my take on some of your thoughts about your conflict. i know you stated you wanted to stay away from the theraputic aspect but...i believe that we do have "old tapes" that we rerun in our mind about ourselves. these are tapes that have been instilled in us as we developed our sense of self. often these old tapes are false beliefs we have about ourselves. an example: once i almost got hit by a car. i was wearing my girl scout uniform. my mother instead of running up and hugging me in my terror instead was angry about what happened..suggesting i wasn't paying attention and that i was a bad person. i was young and her "message" to me said i was a bad person for ammost getting hit by that car cause she didn't hug me with relief but was mad at me. when i got home i felt i had shamed the girl scouts for not obeying safety rules and i was bad to the bone. i stood in front of the mirror and said what a bad person i was for shaming the girl scouts. this was a false belief brought on by my mother's reaction to the event. it created a "tape" that said i was bad (evil).
when i got into therapy i discovered that i had many false tapes-beliefs-about myself that had convinced me i was not a good person. to me these false beliefs were true. my t helped me to untangle all this and see that many things i thought about myself were not true. so this may be partly what is going on with you, chaotic. you've got some old tapes you need to throw out and get some new ones that are based on truth. a therapist can help you do this. it worked for me.
this may have gotten a little off topic but i hope you can see my point about how our beliefs about self can convince us we are bad-evil-when in fact we are not.

[Safron]

madisgram,

I hope you don't mind if I just add that it is possible to record over those old psyche tapes.

As in your case, for instance, standing in front of a mirror today and, while thinking about that event, say to yourself - or out loud - "HOGWASH!!" Then smile and forgive yourself for allowing that old recorded message to interfere with your life for as long as it did.

You may feel like an idiot talking to yourself in the mirror but it is very healing I promise.

[madisgram]

Originally Posted by Safron

madisgram,

I hope you don't mind if I just add that it is possible to record over those old psyche tapes.

As in your case, for instance, standing in front of a mirror today and, while thinking about that event, say to yourself - or out loud - "HOGWASH!!" Then smile and forgive yourself for allowing that old recorded message to interfere with your life for as long as it did.

You may feel like an idiot talking to yourself in the mirror but it is very healing I promise.

i mentioned in that post that thru therapy i have re-recorded tapes that are positive about myself. thank goodness for a wise therapist who saw that these old tapes were really stumbling my growth, causing depression,etc... and he helped to untangle all that old stuff and replace it with good stuff about me. now i say i'm happy, joyous and free!!!

[Safron]

Sorry should have paid more attention.

Glad to hear everything worked out for you.

My Ts pretty cool too.

[madisgram]

Originally Posted by Safron

Sorry should have paid more attention.

Glad to hear everything worked out for you.

My Ts pretty cool too.

safron, you sorta' touched on something that was suggested i do... one of the things my t asked to do was to stand in front of the mirror and and say "i love you, ...." well i felt stupid doing it but you get what you pay for so i did it. one morning when i did it, i realized i believed that i did love myself. it was a wonderful feeling!!! What a great revelation!! i'm so glad he insisted i do it. course i was re-recording tapes thru this time so finally i knew i was making great progress.

Originally Posted by Safron

Forgive me but I believe you may have a bit of growing to do in that area. When you are giving or doing for others it should come from a place that expects nothing in return - this is genuine generosity.

Hello Saffron ,

I enjoy reading your wisdom. I have only read a few of Chaotics post . I really don't know her enough to judge her spiritual growth or anyones for that matter.

great topic.

I'd share but I woke up with the 24 hour jeves.

Patricia

[(JD)]

The problem of evil is a very troubling one for many people. I think a good beginning is to recognize there are two kinds of evil: moral evil and natural evil. The choices and actions of human beings can result in moral evil.

When we think of "moral" evil, it often pertains to a situation of someone doing something unconscionable, such as the rage of shootings at innocent victims in a school yard. Moral evil can also be thought of as an inaction by others who knew better. This might be someone in the school who knew of the person with the gun, but failed to report or care.

This then means moral evil results from human choices and actions.

The other kind of evil is what is considered call "natural" evil. Natural evils can be such things as earthquakes, tornadoes, and diseases not resulting from human choices. Still, the question of why arises.

For me, the two kinds of evil require different kinds of answers.

[chaotic13]

Sky_ interesting distinction between moral and natural evil. I guess I've been limiting my thoughts to the moral evil. You comments made me think of acts of commission and acts of omission. Sometime for me it seems like it is harder to deal with something that you should have done, but simply didn't. Why...I have not idea, maybe it is just what things immediately surfaced when I read your comments.

madisgram...I think you are right, I have a lot of tapes that just need to be thrown away. Its amazing how when you are not "in the grips" of things you can see where your thinking was flawed. But then when you are in the middle of the muck, to old tapes jump right back out of the trash and in your head.

We don’t need to ‘get’ others to appreciate us more. If we are going about it in the right way the appreciation is there.

Safron....I definitely get what you were saying here, especially with regard to service. I think what I was trying to say was more about what I feel sometimes when I recognize that had done something because I wanted another persons attention, wanted them to like me, wanted them to care/love me. For example once my T wrote me a little note that simply said. "Ask H to show interest in things you are interested in." I couldn't do it. Asking someone to show interest in me or the things I like to do seems prideful or self-centered. I don't know like a child saying, "Mommy, Mommy WATCH ME!" What I was trying to say is...it seems like wanting others to care or to be interested or to think you are important enough to pay attention to , is not such a bad thing. In fact, it might even be in our nature to seek this type of connection with others. But some how for me, or when it applys to ME, it wrong some how (prideful, self-centered, not about serving others).

Maybe this is just like madisgram said... an old tape that needs to be thrown out. But its connected to something deep-a belief that if I find myself WANTING, then something is wrong.

[Safron]

Originally Posted by madisgram

safron, you sorta' touched on something that was suggested i do... one of the things my t asked to do was to stand in front of the mirror and and say "i love you, ...." well i felt stupid doing it but you get what you pay for so i did it. one morning when i did it, i realized i believed that i did love myself. it was a wonderful feeling!!! What a great revelation!! i'm so glad he insisted i do it. course i was re-recording tapes thru this time so finally i knew i was making great progress.

I have heard of the ‘I love you’ while in front of the mirror. But some people have trouble saying that to themselves. Other stuff can be just as helpful. With me it’s a case of a lot of weird and wonderful thoughts. Standing in front of the mirror and deciding what is worth my attention helps. As for the rest, I just think Hogwash!! That helps too.