Thoughts on pornography...?

Just a reminder of the original post:

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I realize that pornography has been around since the beginning of mankind. In fact, it is probably one of the earliest forms of art...Look at the Venus of Willendorf, so ancient, with her exaggerated sexual features, and speculated that it was held fondly by ancient ancestors. Then, the art on walls of Roman baths depicting various sexual positions.

At the same time, I must confess I find pornography degrading to both women...and men!
I would like to hear other opinions!

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Thanks,
Rayna

er... and we aren't providing / discussing other opinions?????

one way to do that is by providing ANALOGOUS issues. which is to say issues that are similar in some respects. there is controversy over whether porn results in harm or help and there is similar controversy over whether gun ownership results in harm or help. there are similarities with lobby pressure, too...

I think Rayna is referring to the topic of guns being thrown into this thread, and while I've commented on gun ownership, I do agree, that's not what this thread is about.

I've already stated that I do read research for both sides. I believe what convinces me. Of course I'm going to provide sources that support my argument, when I believe those sources to be valid. You can do the same. That's what a debate is about!

If you weren't born and raised in the USA, you aren't likely to understand the concept of freedom from our point of view. I agree with heyjoe, you tend to be condescending and I really don't appreciate your uninformed judgement of the US. As I said before, I don't hear you criticizing other countries.

Most science shows porn decreases sex crimes, whether you want to believe that or not. And I'm not focused only on rape; I believe I have also stated that there are many people who feel porn has helped, or at least not harmed, their relationships.

I already provided studies and articles supporting that porn decreases sex crimes. Wander back through the thread. Then again, why bother? You've made up your mind, and no amount of research will convince you.

Yes, in war, there is rape. But that doesn't mean men are inclined to rape in general society. War is a different phenomenon entirely.

If death could be reduced by 10% by outlawing cars, should we do it? The problem isn't porn, it's the people who rape. Again, you are sympathizing with the rapist.

I believe in freedom, whether you like it or not. That means people are responsible for their actions. Everyone has something negative in their past, and even if a person wasn't abused or molested, s/he may make bad choices because of certain bad things that happened to him/her. Maybe he was rejected by the first few girls he asked out, so now he's cynical about women. Maybe he even becomes a rapist or murderer. Do we blame those first girls who rejected him? NO! We blame the rapist/murderer!

Maybe sugar makes some people commit terrible crimes. We know sugar has a lot of bad affects, and can raise anxiety, depression and nervousness. Maybe it makes people more likely to commit rape. Why not outlaw it?

Psychiatric drugs like Paxil have been shown to cause some people to commit suicide or become violent. These drugs are still out there. Why haven't they been recalled?

Maybe seeing a hammer makes some people want to hit. Maybe a guy who desires to hit grabs the hammer and attacks his elderly neighbor? Is it the hammer's fault?

If people disagree with outlawing something, whether you think it being outlawed is a good idea, they will likely violate the law. It does not matter why the law is in place. It does not matter whether it's right or wrong for them to break the law. The point is, the act will still go on.

Back on gun control, heyjoe has already commented, but in short, he's right...stricter gun control does not make for safer areas. Take the Columbine massacre, for instance. The shooters had a TEC-9 handgun among their weapons, which was already outlawed. They violated many firearms laws in obtaining those weapons.

Most gun control laws have been written since 1968, yet the murder rate went up during the 70's, 80's and 90's. Among the fifteen states with the highest homicide rates, ten have very restrictive or restrictive gun laws.

Fact: The landmark federal Gun Control Act of 1968, banning most interstate gun sales, had no
discernible impact on the criminal acquisition of guns from other states.

This information, and much more, comes from http://www.gunfacts.info.

You keep talking about how people skip over the information you deem valid, but you haven't addressed points I've made in past posts in this thread. I find this hypocritical.

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What I lament... Is people using the scientific findings and the arguments solely in order to defend their own position rather than attempting to consider a RANGE of what is out there in order to develop INFORMED opinions. When it is about defending what one thought already... Well... I find that kinda sad is all.

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Again, hypocritical.

Wikipedia is hardly a resource for facts. Anyone can add and edit information. A while back, politicians and their supporters were found to be editing information in their favor, even when the facts said otherwise.

> If you weren't born and raised in the USA, you aren't likely to understand the concept of freedom from our point of view. I agree with heyjoe, you tend to be condescending and I really don't appreciate your uninformed judgement of the US.

Right then. I'll leave you to your point of view so you don't have to bother about my 'hypocritical' and 'condescending' responses anymore.

Because...

It isn't much fun having a conversation with people who call you names and stuff. I'd rather associate with people who appreciate that I have feelings and are sensitive to them.

If I've hurt your feelings then I'm sorry - I never meant to. If I've hurt your feelings then you can tell me that, you know, I do try and be sensitive to peoples feelings.

If I feel attacked then the point is kinda lost, however.

Enjoy your brand of freedom... Or something...

I think that the studies and the interpretation of the studies remain the subject of much controversy. It is unclear how much the studies provide in the way of evidence either way. I guess things get controversial when people feel passionately about either side and when people feel there is a lot at stake.

For the record, yes, I do sympathise with abusers as I similarly sympathise with victims. The majority of abusers have been victims, you see, and the majority of victims go on to abuse in one way or another (by their attention being drawn to their hurt hence neglect, by verbal and physical abuse, by sexual abuse in some instances).

I do lament some of the things that society condones, however. Quite a lot of it. Violence on TV and smacking children and exploiting animals for clothing and make-up and unnecessary food and mutilating the genitles of little boys and yes pornography and gun ownership. I appreciate that some people think some or all of the above are wonderful wonderful things - or at least things that one should be at liberty to partake in - but I guess I have a bit more of an idealistic view of where I'd like society to be headed and... I guess there is little to be done but for me to do my best to live in accordance and express my views at times...

Thanks Maven. It was the guns topic since the thread is about pornography, that I was referring to.

Discussion and even debating is ok as long as the conversation stays at least related to the original post, and stays nice. Even debates still need to stay supportive. Its wonderful to express one's own views, lets just make sure things stay nice.

Not saying its not nice, I just cringe over debates, always have always will lol. Just makin sure everyone stays friends through debate lol. Ok I'm rambling. Carry on! Tee hee.

We're being honest about how we feel. The manner in which you speak is hypocritical and condescending, and we will call you on it, when we feel that's how it is.

I don't think anyone called you a name, rather than describing the way you're speaking. You may not mean to be condescending, but you are. Some of us aren't willing to keep quiet about it.

I understand feeling sorry for abusers because of their past. But I refuse to excuse their behavior because of it. I can't go around hurting innocent people just because other people hurt me. By your account, no one should be punished for what they do, because most people who commit terrible crimes do so because of things that happened to them.

People who steal justify it. Almost everything people do wrong is justified in their minds, even when they acknowledge it's wrong. A bad past does not justify actions, and such persons should be punished. Additionally, people who are dangerous to society need to be taken out of society.

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but I guess I have a bit more of an idealistic view of where I'd like society to be headed

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This is exactly what we mean by condescending. You're putting us down as not having ideals and wanting good things. Just because we see things differently and see certain things as ideal that you do not, does not mean you're better or smarter than us.

I like some pornography, or what certain people would call porn. Different people have different ideas of what porn is. I don't commit rape or hurt people as a result of it, and I will continue to enjoy porn and erotica, whether you like it or not. The vast majority of scientific studies that I've seen support it as reducing sex crimes, and I believe them.

I also believe women should not be treated as sex objects, but I don't blame porn for this; I blame those who treat women that way. I expect adults to take responsibility for their actions, and to look at their views themselves. Children should not view porn, because they're not mentally or emotionally ready for it; they should be taught by their parents to treat women respectfully. And men should be treated with respect as well. Adults who learned as children and teens to be respectful will not change by looking at porn, and can enjoy another aspect of sexuality in a healthy way.

I'm sorry if you're uncomfortable, Rayna, but I feel I must speak up when something bothers me.

> We're being honest about how we feel.

I don't think you are telling me how you feel so much as you are focused on describing MY behaviours. For example:

> The manner in which you speak is hypocritical and condescending.

> You may not mean to be condescending, but you are. Some of us aren't willing to keep quiet about it.

Do you mean... You feel devalued and unappreciated and disrespected?

I don't intend for you to feel that way. If I didn't value what people had to say then I wouldn't bother taking the time to respond to what people have to say. This thread got me thinking a lot about evidence and stuff.

I do feel hurt when you said that I'm condescending, though. It hurt me.

>> You're putting us down as not having ideals and wanting good things. Just because we see things differently and see certain things as ideal that you do not, does not mean you're better or smarter than us.

I don't think that I'm better or smarter than people here. I'm sorry if you feel dumb or morally uneasy in conversing with me. I really don't mean for people to feel bad having conversations with me just as I really don't want for me to feel bad having conversations with other people.

Interpersonal communication isn't a strength of mine. Had trouble with that all my life. Sorry if I hurt or upset you.

I didn't mean to say or imply that I was idealistic in a morally praiseworthy sense. I actually meant... That maybe I was idealistic in a not very realist or not very feasible sense. The studies are starting to disturb me... The fact that it IS controversial whether gun ownership is reducing crime, the fact that it IS controversial whether pornography is reducing sexual assault. The fact that there is evidence to suggest that these things are helping is something that I find disturbing. So maybe my notion that we could have a society without those things and without gun crime and without sexual abuse is idealistic in a naieve (derogatory) sense. That was what I meant...

I appreciate what you have said about your views. Your ideals (in a non-derogatory sense) if you like. I respect it too. I think there is more agreement than disagreement really. We both agree that people are responsible for their actions and that crime is unacceptable etc. I think we have the same goals (to reduce the harms). More agreement than disagreement really.

I'm sorry if I hurt you.

because... i do appreciate you maven. we have had a number of discussions and i really enjoy discussing things with you. even if we don't agree i respect your opinion. i'm sorry that i'm not very good at conveying liking and apreciation for people.

you too heyjoe. i know we had a bit of an incident a while back (about reporting immigrants). but same goes, really, i do respect your opinion and your willingness to share your thoughts and think about things.

i never really studied ethics... because i feel like i'm a truely reprehensible and condemnable person much of the time. maybe i do come across as self righteous and stuff at times... i don't know. but interpersonal communication isn't really a strength of mine and i'm not exactly known for my ability to put people at ease and stuff.

thats why i do get blocked sometimes.

sorry.

Alexandra i never had a discussion about reporting immigrants, you must have me confused with another person as far as that discussion goes. I have never reported anybody for anything, not even my neighbor who put their shed right on my fence..haha......IM sorry i was so harsh towards you. I was wrong in the way i said that. I can be a real snot sometimes. We all have problems or else we wouldnt be here, me included, and i appreciate that you do care enough to think things out and respond. Take care.

yeah. you are right. that was mellors. sorry about that. not my day today.

To be clear, when I describe your behaviors, I'm telling you how I feel about them. If I say you're condescending, I mean, I feel you're being condescending. I don't believe in all this political correctness, having to say everything "nicely," so I say what comes to mind at the moment, the way it does. I don't mean to hurt you, but I'm communicating what I think you're saying or how you're saying it.

But yes, I feel disrespected when you speak to me like that.

I'm sorry you felt hurt, but if you speak to me in a way that feels condescending, I will say you're being condescending. If I knew you to be lying, I'd tell you I knew you were lying; I wouldn't refrain just to spare your feelings.

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I'm sorry if you feel dumb or morally uneasy in conversing with me.

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That is insulting. I do not feel dumb or morally uneasy. I have no doubts about the beliefs I've stated here. I do not think you feel dumb or doubt your morals, so don't assume I feel that way.

Thank you for the explanation of what you meant by idealistic views. That sounds much less hurtful. I apologize for misinterpreting what you said.

You are not reprehensible and all that. I am not always likable because I speak boldly, and I also feel defensive sometimes. Sometimes I feel I'm a bad person, but when I'm not waddling in self-pity, I realize I'm a good person...too bad that isn't most of the time. But my point is, you should realize your self-worth, even when we disagree.

Just accept that I'm right about everything, and we'll get along fine!

> when I describe your behaviors, I'm telling you how I feel about them. If I say you're condescending, I mean, I feel you're being condescending.

I think it is important (with respect to boundaries) to distinguish between
1) How we feel and
2) How people behave
How come? Because you need to take responsibility for your feelings just as I need to take responsibility for my behaviour.

When you say that I'm condescending you are focused on describing my behaviour (or your judgement of it) rather than being focused on describing how you felt in response to my behaviour. E.g., demeaned? undermined? devalued?

> I feel disrespected when you speak to me like that.

Disrespected is a feeling.

> if you speak to me in a way that feels condescending, I will say you're being condescending.

I'd prefer it if you could state your feeling rather than judging my behaviour. I'll return the courtesy, or at least I'll certainly do my best to return the courtesy.

> That is insulting. I do not feel dumb or morally uneasy... don't assume I feel that way.

You mean that you feel insulted?

I don't mean this to be about verbal tricks. The reason why it is important to be clear about the distinction between ones feelings and other peoples actions is because of this:

> Thank you for the explanation of what you meant by idealistic views. That sounds much less hurtful. I apologize for misinterpreting what you said.

See... I didn't mean for that statement to be an insult. When you said that it was it hurt my feelings because I didn't intend it to be insulting. If I know that you feel insulted because of the way you have interpreted my behaviour, however, then I can clear up what it was that I intended to do with my behaviour. Just as I wouldn't want to tell you how to feel I'm sure you wouldn't want me telling you what your behaviour was (e.g., insulting) or what the intention behind your behaviour was (e.g., to insult me). Please don't jump to conclusions about my behaviour.

> The manner in which you speak is hypocritical and condescending, and we will call you on it, when we feel that's how it is.

If you do that then I won't respond to your posts anymore. How come? Because it HURTS when you say I'm hypocritical and condescending. How would you feel if I told you that you were hypocritical and condescending? I don't understand why you would respond to me if you thought I was like that. I have enough negative self talk without volountarily associating with people who tell me derogatory things. If you can't say something nice...

Or... Tell me how you feel instead of judging MY actions.

> This is exactly what we mean by condescending. You're putting us down as not having ideals and wanting good things. Just because we see things differently and see certain things as ideal that you do not, does not mean you're better or smarter than us.

What I got from this passage was that... If I redescribe what you have said into a statement of how you feel...

Condescending... How do people feel when they interpret someones actions in that way? Demeaned? Devalued? Undermined?
Putting us down... Same as above, I guess.
Does not mean you're better or smarter than us... I guess I wondered how I would feel if I said that to someone... I guess I'd feel... Worse than them... Stupid... I don't know. Angry, maybe? Dunno...

I just think that... There aren't too many people in the world who take kindly to people describing their behaviour as 'condescending' 'hypocritical' 'insulting' 'disrespectful'. When you describe peoples behaviour in that way I really don't think that you will find a single person in the world who won't feel upset / hurt in response to that. It hurt me at any rate. And then it turned out that... I didn't intend my behaviour in that way after all... That kind of hurt (which often results in both parties degenerating to insults and escalating conflict) can be prevented by... Simply sticking to stating how one feels in response to the behaviour. That way the other person gets the opportunity to clarify their intention and / or apologise. Otherwise... Well... Not very positive encounters, I suppose.

How did this get so far from "thoughts on pornography"? I hardly see any socially redemptive value in picking apart one another's posts on a thread that started out rather well.

Reading a thread that turns into endless quotes and statistics and arguments is tiring unless I just love arguments and disruptions....I can look up all the info that I want with Google.......I guess what I am saying is this, "TOO MUCH INDFORMATION" is bad for your digestion..... It can feel to another poster like a ***sing contest.

I'd like to suggest that if we feel so strongly about something that someone else said (or the way they said it), we could duke it out in PMs. For myself, I start feeling completely disconnected from the original idea of the thread and find that I'm doing a lot of sighing and then I just quit reading.


I'm retiring now to eat some really, really hot homemade salsa and chips.....then I'll be at peace.....

I forgot the culture here was that (some) people prefer to let topics of conversation die rather than embracing their evolution.

Not every thread will be to everyones tastes. Sometimes I find I get interested in an the way a thread has evolved even though I wasn't into it initially, sometimes I find the converse to be the case.

Thanks for sharing your take on the situation. I'm sorry you find quotes and statistics and arguments tiring. Of course you can look up information on google - people on the meds board and the health board etc can also look up the information that they require from google but they frequently ask the boards instead.

enjoy your salsa.

"I forgot the culture here was that (some) people prefer to let topics of conversation die rather than embracing their evolution."

Alex, your comment above is uncalled for. and i forgot the culture from which you post. the culture of "if i am not right, then i'll be condesending".

there is such a thing as following a thread that someone starts. i was, and am still, suggesting that when you want to take the bit in your mouth and run towards YOUR barn, please take it to PMs.

it's like asking you what time it is and having you tell me how to build a clock.

"I'm sorry you find quotes and statistics and arguments tiring."

my, we are being presumptous today, aren't we?

find where i said it was tiring. i said it could be too much information and i mean that.

taking over a thread to push your information and picking apart posts is what tires me. start another thread if you want to.

filters aren't that hard to use in our culture and they certainly do come in handy when the temptation to take over a thread arises.

I'd like to jump in here and say that it's time for this conversation to go back to the original topic.

The conversation has evolved, but only with a few. Others who would like to read the topic don't expect it.

I agree that when a topic turns to conversation strictly between two or three people and is off-topic from the original post, it should go to PM or to another thread.

I think it's great that you're discussing your feelings and differences! However, it's taking completely away from the previous, *intended* conversation.

For instance, I came to read about thoughts on pornography...

Thanks!

KD

condescending and presumptuous...

descriptions of me again...

keeping threads 'on topic' kind of precludes the working through of differences...

this thread is five pages long now. aren't there many thoughts on pornography already? would the thread have gotten as long as it has if people hadn't thought a little more laterally about the topic? are peoples lateral thoughts about the topic preventing people from posting thoughts in response to the initial question?

online transference is an interesting topic... the way people interpret what is said...

am i to understand that it is okay for someone here to call another person 'condescending', 'presumptuous', 'disrespectful', 'insulting', etc etc etc.

because if it is then i simply won't post to these boards again. i thought these boards were meant to be a safe place for support. not a place where people can feel free to come and describe your behaviour (or character) in a malevolent way. i don't think many people would stand for that IRL and i see no reason why i should stand for it here. i have feelings too. i've tried to be sensitive to the feelings of other people. but i have feelings too.

this is no longer a community topic, though alexandra. it's become a conversation to a few and way off-topic. it can still be discussed, absolutely. however, it needs to be in PM or another thread.

if you have further response to me, please put it in PM.

i'd like only to see further posting to be on topic with the original conversation. further off-topic posting is subject to removal.

please send a PM or begin a new thread.

KD

I'd like to say that I removed a post against the guidelines.

To those of you that responded, your responses went along for the ride. I'm sorry.

Thank you!

KD

Thanks, Kimmy...you did good!
Patty

I hate that I feel it necessary to lock this thread. I think it's pretty much run its course, but would have liked to have left it open for those to stop by and comment with their thoughts.

However, at this point, those that are responding are continuing on in the off-topic, posting against request and/or guidelines, etc.

If the OP would like to begin a new thread on the OT, please don't hesitate.

Thanks!

KD