[Partless]

I read somewhere that nearly half of them are enmeshed. Yet I can't find any research. I am not sure if that psychologist was making it up or if it's true. I have trouble with enmeshment in my family (not alcohol related) but I wondered if this is true in other families, so I had come across that info on alcoholic families by accident and wondered if it's true.

What does enmeshment mean? Here's one definition I found on a psych website:
"An enmeshed relationship has an extreme amount of emotional closeness and loyalty is demanded. Individuals are very dependent on each other and reactive to one another. There is a general lack of personal separateness and little privacy is permitted. The energy of the individuals is mainly focused inside the marriage or family and there are few outside individual friends or interests."

[ramirorico]

Hi Partless,

I just Googled the word 'enmeshment' and what Google says is a little close to your definition. It talks more about dependency in families. By the way, Google will give you a definition of any word if you type in: define WORD. In your case, I typed in: define enmeshment. Google's definition is below:

Enmeshment is a state of cross-generational bonding within a family, whereby a child (normally of the opposite sex) becomes a surrogate spouse for their mother or father. The term is also applied more generally to engulfing codependent relationships where an unhealthy symbiosis is in existence.

To answer your question, yes alcoholic families tend to be more enmeshed because they keep each other's secrets. They become codependent and they lie for each other and often, will give money to the alcoholic so he or she can buy booze.

[Altered Moment]

I was an emotional surrogate husband to my mother because I was the oldest boy and my dad was not what you call emotionally available. I have never thought of enmeshment is such broad terms as the whole family though. I always thought we all take on different roles and enmeshment is a part of that.

I think of it as - if you are too enmeshed with someone you will put their needs and wants ahead of your own healthy needs. Being so wrapped up in someone else's problems and having a need to fix them that you ignore your own needs.

[Partless]

Thank you ramirorico (cute funny avy) zinco14532323. I appreciate the comments. My mom has a lot of shame and as a result I lived my whole life in shame, a life of secrets and lies. Even when my sister was hospitalized and was suicidal, not a single person knew about it and I begged her to let other people know so we can have some kind of a social support as a family (I felt so alone) but she couldn't. That's when I developed PTSD, which is what I'm still struggling with. She also has a narcissistic side, so when you got something good going she becomes possessive (when I was a kid and looked handsome and did well, she'd often go places with me instead of dad, and so my doc said I was adultified...or whatever...can't remember the word). But if you mess up or don't look as good, she rejects you and distances from you as if she was allergic to you. But it doesn't look like she doing it on purpose, it's like her heart is so small or her emotions are so powerful. I think she spends a lot of her time trying not to face her own pain.

My father was emotionally distance and a workaholic and so I ended up growing up with mom's needs and desires and wants crowding me and a few years ago as I turned 30 and completely broke down (PTSD, anxiety and depression), I had to go back and face the reality that this was the family I grew up in. I was completely without direction. I had forgotten about myself. I literally did not know what I wanted to be or who I was. Or if it even mattered. My mom quite older now, seems less of a force in my life but still every conversation with her makes me terribly tense.

I think I lived much of my life in this enmeshed environment (and codependency that you referenced) and somehow I assumed that as a whole family we will take care of us each other but I felt like I did my part growing up but they left me out to dry. So I turned 30 and suddenly realized I have no intimate relationships, no house, no job, and felt infuriated because I felt it was suddenly every man for himself now that major crises in our family had passed and nobody cared about me. This is a crazy comparison, but heck I'll say it, it's almost like going to war for your country and when you come back they tell you it was not necessary anyways and also sorry you got PTSD or whatever but there is no help and you go find a job yourself and start judging you if you don't.

What's worse is my therapist had said a lot of things I did, unintentionally, was making the situation worse or the same, never improving it. I was "enabling" her in believing her story of shame and powerlessness and being caring towards her. My therapist said it's time to focus on myself. But there is so much anger about unfairness of it all. I live most of my days with feelings of shame or guilt or anger. I hate telling no to her. Whenever she wants something she becomes so pushy and when you reject her she feels victimized.

When I had come across a couple of forums and children of alcoholic families talking about some of these things, I started to wonder if they could understand me. Then I forgot about it till I came across enmeshment recently. Anyhow, this is getting way long and thank you for your responses.

[Altered Moment]

It certainly doesn't have to be an alcoholic family for all those things to be prevalent. It is only because of AA, Alanon, and ACOA, and addiction that it gets all the attention. When I started working on these issues in Alanon I found out I had much more surpressed anger at my mother than I did at my alcoholic father. I was shocked at that. All the focus had always been on my father.

The methods of recovery can be the same. The most popular books at that time on co dependance were by Melody Beatty.

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[Lemon Curd]

My brother, who played the husband role with mommy dearest, joined the military for 6 years to get away from her narcissistic personality. By the way, there is tons of information out on the web regarding narcissistic mothers. I left town to different city & state as soon as I was able. I needed the distance to put the focus on me for a change & get help for myself. It was the best thing I ever did to save my own life. The distance helped tremendously. If I stayed, I would have been forced into being mama's slave. Run, run for your life. There's a whole new world out there. That's just me. *big warm friendship hug*

[JadeAmethyst]

Just an idea, labels don't define humanity...I see no purpose in them.
When you make a geographical move, your biology will follow you now, or as you age.
Becoming your own self, complete with flaws is the beauty of living today.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by nutty buddy

My brother, who played the husband role with mommy dearest, joined the military for 6 years to get away from her narcissistic personality. By the way, there is tons of information out on the web regarding narcissistic mothers. I left town to different city & state as soon as I was able. I needed the distance to put the focus on me for a change & get help for myself. It was the best thing I ever did to save my own life. The distance helped tremendously. If I stayed, I would have been forced into being mama's slave. Run, run for your life. There's a whole new world out there. That's just me. *big warm friendship hug*

back at you, thank you for sharing, I bet you leaving or in particular your brother, must have been difficult (the issues about obligation and guilt and all that). But glad you were able to. I keep trying to convince myself that me focusing on my own life and finding myself does not have to be a win-lose situation. I will be in a better place and can be a better son. And it is also true that I am not my family, and that's just reality, whether I like it or not and whether I was treated as separate or not. I'm also looking up more about narcissistic parents and enmeshment now as well. Cheers.

[Altered Moment]

I left home when I was 19 for a lot of complicated reasons. I think the primary motive was to establish my own self separate from my family. I managed to do that and kind of isolated myself from them. I still wrote letters and went home for Christmas but really I was on my own. I proved to myself I could make it.

What I learned though was that everywhere I went there I was. I brought all the characteristics both good and bad that I had adopted as a child and young man with me. I didn't escape the labels of alcoholism, enmeshment, scape goat, rescuer, peacemaker, whatever. It took a lot of self examination and hard work deciding which characteristics, values, behaviors, etc. I wanted to adopt as my own. Many of them were things my parents taught me and I chose to call my own. Many I did not want and worked to get rid of them. We do have a choice but it takes awareness. Awareness can be your most powerful ally.

I spent a number of years blissfully unaware drinking, drugging, unhealthy relationships, unconscious patterns of behavior that were not good for me until one day I decided to start doing something about it.

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[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by Partless

back at you, thank you for sharing, I bet you leaving or in particular your brother, must have been difficult (the issues about obligation and guilt and all that). But glad you were able to. I keep trying to convince myself that me focusing on my own life and finding myself does not have to be a win-lose situation. I will be in a better place and can be a better son. And it is also true that I am not my family, and that's just reality, whether I like it or not and whether I was treated as separate or not. I'm also looking up more about narcissistic parents and enmeshment now as well. Cheers.

You are right it is not a win lose proposition and can be done whether you leave or not. Foregivness is a big part. Sorting out what you really want and what are external expectations can be difficult. "Be true to yourself" is a saying I have always loved. Hard to figure out what that means lots of times.

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[Partless]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I left home when I was 19 for a lot of complicated reasons. I think the primary motive was to establish my own self separate from my family. I managed to do that and kind of isolated myself from them. I still wrote letters and went home for Christmas but really I was on my own. I proved to myself I could make it.

What I learned though was that everywhere I went there I was. I brought all the characteristics both good and bad that I had adopted as a child and young man with me. I didn't escape the labels of alcoholism, enmeshment, scape goat, rescuer, peacemaker, whatever. It took a lot of self examination and hard work deciding which characteristics, values, behaviors, etc. I wanted to adopt as my own. Many of them were things my parents taught me and I chose to call my own. Many I did not want and worked to get rid of them. We do have a choice but it takes awareness. Awareness can be your most powerful ally.

I spent a number of years blissfully unaware drinking, drugging, unhealthy relationships, unconscious patterns of behavior that were not good for me until one day I decided to start doing something about it.

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zinco14532323, those words I bolded, darn it, they define me. I wanted to rescue my mom and fix her, it was a need, a compulsion, a duty, an obligation, some of it came from her and my dad but also some of it came from me, I can't stand to see so much suffering and so much pain. In a family that I felt ignored and sometimes overvalued, I had found something I thought I was good at and could help. Part of it was fear because my mom would have rage episodes and sometimes I even felt both parents would "gang up" on me. In my naive stupidity of being a child, I would want to help mom and get close to her and since she was not good with her boundaries, she'd let me in too much, then somehow I would do something that would hurt her or she would be uncomfortable with that closeness and my dad would be mad at me. I was scapegoated often and later even came to value that role. I would sacrifice myself for the harmony, I would disappear, I would take all the hate, but all so that I would matter in that family...alas.

I so wish I was not a sensitive kid. I could just go out and play every time there was a fight or something. Instead I had to be in my stupid room studying my stupid subjects, overhearing them and part of my mind that feared conflict and so badly wanted peace and harmony, searching for a way I could be useful. It was almost too easy to fit in that position, to be my mother's husband. Dad was always away working and when present, not emotionally there. He treated us mostly as if we were his customers or coworkers. I think mom was treated mostly the same way. He was not horrible, he did not beat her, but they had conflicts all the time, and I was exposed to a lot of her saying she wanted to kill herself, or threatening my dad with a knife or something talking about sort of a family suicide, like she going and taking us with her.

So in the middle of all this craziness, I found a role that fit me well. I probably felt I was more powerful than I actually was. Ignoring a few needs and attending to mom felt good, I mattered, I was rescuing her, I was needed. Then years went by and she changed, becoming less emotional and less unstable (mostly because of age and also kids growing up and also she severed some bonds with her own family and friends). And I looked around to find myself in my 30s with nothing to show to my name, with no sense of myself. It was horrifying! I felt anger at nobody having my back but also felt angry at myself for being duped. I realized I had not really mattered as much and the rescue thing, I thought too much of my own importance, my mom and dad would have been okay. They would have found a way. Or maybe they wouldn't but who cares? It was not my duty, not my job. I screwed up big time. I intruded into their boundaries, I did not take responsibility for my own stuff (why the hell did I quit college and come home last time?), and now I'm left with a lot of resentment and feeling I don't matter and nobody cares about me.

I gained almost a hundred pounds, I was "self medicating" with food and some prescribed meds too. It was not until I physically separated a few years ago, that I started to lose the weight. But now I'm left with deep depression. The past follows me like a shadow. Like you said, it's not just about physical separation. It's the stuff we learned. It's the stuff we ourselves picked up because we thought it makes us more like our family. But this separation feels too painful (it's the first time I'm trying to be separate and yet compassionate and close, so not run away and not hurt myself, trying to be mature about it all...). I'm afraid of starting any relationship. I don't trust my own judgment. What if I go after a girl with a lot of troubles and try to "rescue" her again? What if I repeat the patterns again (like before)? I'm not sure if I can get up again if I fall down one more time.

Anyhow, thank you so much for your post, I felt like you understood some of the things I was experiencing and it made me open up.

p.s. btw what is that beautiful bird in your avy?

[AncientMelody]

It's very true in the case of my family. my father is an alcoholic. Family was everything. Not to the point where we couldn't have outside interests, but very emotionally dependent on one another. I still have difficulty in therapy feeling disloyal when I discuss my family.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by Partless

I read somewhere that nearly half of them are enmeshed. Yet I can't find any research. I am not sure if that psychologist was making it up or if it's true. I have trouble with enmeshment in my family (not alcohol related) but I wondered if this is true in other families, so I had come across that info on alcoholic families by accident and wondered if it's true.

What does enmeshment mean? Here's one definition I found on a psych website:
"An enmeshed relationship has an extreme amount of emotional closeness and loyalty is demanded. Individuals are very dependent on each other and reactive to one another. There is a general lack of personal separateness and little privacy is permitted. The energy of the individuals is mainly focused inside the marriage or family and there are few outside individual friends or interests."

Yeah, I see that in my family. They're always up in each other's business. I made it a point to get away and to stay away. I live about 45 minutes away from my parent and 3 siblings, but I see them about once or twice a year. It's helped me immensely on my journey. It helps that I'm 47 and I have my own family.

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

When I started working on these issues in Alanon I found out I had much more surpressed anger at my mother than I did at my alcoholic father. I was shocked at that. All the focus had always been on my father.

This is where I'm at now. My mother has many more issues than just an alcoholic husband so it would have happened anyway but I have spent so long focusing on how my father treated me (as the more obvious abuser) that I didn't realize the damage my mother was doing.

I have been playing mother to my own mother most of my life. To the point where I have spent some of the most traumatic instances of my life comforting her.

Sometimes I think she genuinely doesn't understand we are two separate people.

Most of the fights between my father and I started because I was protecting her. Realizing now that she deliberately provokes my anger I can't help but wonder how many times did she deliberately provoke him and leave me to deal with the consequences?

Worst part is, I can't leave. Last time she was left on her did not end well. Better to be smothered than to feel guilty about letting my mother end up on the streets.

[xrp2501]

Zinco you just may be my new hero
"What I learned though was that everywhere I went there I was. I brought all the characteristics both good and bad that I had adopted as a child and young man with me. I didn't escape the labels of alcoholism, enmeshment, scape goat, rescuer, peacemaker, whatever. It took a lot of self examination and hard work deciding which characteristics, values, behaviors, etc. I wanted to adopt as my own. Many of them were things my parents taught me and I chose to call my own. Many I did not want and worked to get rid of them. We do have a choice but it takes awareness. Awareness can be your most powerful ally."
But I would like to modify this for my signature

I spent a number of years blissfully unaware, drinking, drugging, unhealthy relationships, unconscious patterns of behavior that were not good for me. ......
so much for the good old daze

[Altered Moment]

feel free