[leomama]

Hi everyone,

I started reading this book psychopath free as per recovering from narcissistic abuse and as I progressed into the book my heart dropped. I did not know I would be reading about my mother in this book. I had read understanding the borderline mother, mean mothers, tried to read will I ever be good enough, but had to return it.

Well, this particular red flag got my attention: focuses on your mistakes and ignores their own.

As a result of this "you might begin to adopt perfectionist qualities, very aware that any mistake can and will be used against you".

I know I'm a perfectionist, its a "character defect" that I have to do a lot more work to get rid of, and perhaps this thread is part of that effort.

Sponsors nagging me to get rid of my perfectionism didn't make a dent in it, but this, knowing where it comes from, has gotten my attention. I also have this same attitude about anything I say, I know it can and will be used against me.

I have no idea what its like to live without perfectionism nor do I know many people who aren't perfectionists.

I made the mistake since I was a teen of trying to confront my mom about how she was treating me. That never went anywhere. I tried to talk to my dad and my aunt about it, that didn't go anywhere either. They're both flying monkeys, talking about how smart she is, how hard she works, how difficult I was. That just shames me. I don't really talk to my mom anymore. Recently I learned my brother calls my parents 3-4 times a week and talks to my mom a lot. Good for him. He always was a "mammas boy" as I used to call him, by the feminine version of his name. My brother has a visual disability and I now think its easier for my parents to love my brother then me .

Do you think this red flag is accurate?

[Atypical_Disaster]

This can be a red flag for any cluster B personality disorder I think. What really determines which one it is, is knowing the internal motivation of the person with said cluster B disorder. That can be tricky, for obvious reasons.

Though speaking from personal experience of someone who has the mind of a predator, this is something I would theoretically do. When targeting someone I wouldn't put any of the focus on myself. I would put it all on him/her/them. So yes, that'll mean honing in on his/her mistakes and gaslighting the hell out of him/her if they try to bring up my own mistakes.

[leomama]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

This can be a red flag for any cluster B personality disorder I think. What really determines which one it is, is knowing the internal motivation of the person with said cluster B disorder. That can be tricky, for obvious reasons.

Though speaking from personal experience of someone who has the mind of a predator, this is something I would theoretically do. When targeting someone I wouldn't put any of the focus on myself. I would put it all on him/her/them. So yes, that'll mean honing in on his/her mistakes and gaslighting the hell out of him/her if they try to bring up my own mistakes.

You know it's funny, I've been accused of gaslighting by someone who was gaslighting me. I've also been told my whole family gaslit me so I'm sure I learned all their tricks except my honesty prevents me from gaslighting. I really appreciate your honesty. It is so refreshing to be able to talk about this with someone who is not the victim of a narcissist. That gets so played out. In the thrivers community it's understood and accepted we have fleas. It really gets on my nerves when victims of narcissists don't get over it. The ironic thing is now I'm helping all 3 communities: cluster Bs, friends and family and survivors. I have to be super nonjudgmental . I think you are one of my favorite people on psych central.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by leomama

You know it's funny, I've been accused of gaslighting by someone who was gaslighting me. I've also been told my whole family gaslit me so I'm sure I learned all their tricks except my honesty prevents me from gaslighting. I really appreciate your honesty. It is so refreshing to be able to talk about this with someone who is not the victim of a narcissist. That gets so played out. In the thrivers community it's understood and accepted we have fleas. It really gets on my nerves when victims of narcissists don't get over it. The ironic thing is now I'm helping all 3 communities: cluster Bs, friends and family and survivors. I have to be super nonjudgmental . I think you are one of my favorite people on psych central.

I always chuckle when someone calls me "honest" in any context. It's not laughing AT the person who made the remark, it's laughing at the irony of it because I'm known for many things by many people and one of the things I'm infamous for is being a prolific liar.

It's funny because I was a victim of a narcissist, or well I would have been... my father has full blown NPD. He was an abusive **** for my entire childhood and adolescence. But he just did not affect me like he did affect everyone else in my immediate family. I've never been able to explain that, or why I have this extensive and documented severe trauma history in general that just didn't seem to affect me like it would have totally decimated someone else if they were in my shoes.

Thanks for the favorite remark, you're not the first one who's said that. As a person with known narcissism I won't lie, I enjoy the ego stroke and thank you for it.

[leomama]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I always chuckle when someone calls me "honest" in any context. It's not laughing AT the person who made the remark, it's laughing at the irony of it because I'm known for many things by many people and one of the things I'm infamous for is being a prolific liar.


It's funny because I was a victim of a narcissist, or well I would have been... my father has full blown NPD. He was an abusive **** for my entire childhood and adolescence. But he just did not affect me like he did affect everyone else in my immediate family. I've never been able to explain that, or why I have this extensive and documented severe trauma history in general that just didn't seem to affect me like it would have totally decimated someone else if they were in my shoes.


Thanks for the favorite remark, you're not the first one who's said that. As a person with known narcissism I won't lie, I enjoy the ego stroke and thank you for it.

I think what I like about you is you're not defensive. That's so refreshing. I was talking to my t yesterday about how insulting it is when someone slaps the narcissist label on me and she said ask them why they are doing it. I talked to my dad about his narcissism on Friday and he's totally comfortable with it. I'm not comfortable with mine, I've worked really hard to overcome it. I suppose if I had an illustrious career as a painter I could indulge my narcissism but right now I'm starting all over. My dad was like "you should be at the top of your game at your age". He doesn't care I've been raising my daughter single handed for the past 11 years. He thinks I should've abandoned her 3 years ago to focus on my career. Right. My substance abusing, mood disordered, eating disordered teen . Sure dad. I actually devoted my first degree and career to child development .

[Atypical_Disaster]

I'm not a defensive person by nature. Again, I don't know why that is lol.

These days I would say that being called a narcissist is probably the worst psychiatric insult you can get. The witch hunting surrounding NPD in the last oh, 15 years or so is just, astounding... All of a sudden everyone that's ever been mean to someone is a narcissist, that's what it looks like anyways.

In other words, just from that alone I can't say I blame you for feeling insulted to be labeled like that. Personally you don't strike me as all that narcissistic.

Your dad sounds pretty typical as far as narcissists go, he and my father would get on well.

Also, I find it darkly funny that you recovery people call after effects of growing up with NPD parents or whatever "fleas". I find it morbidly amusing because I got a physical illness from a flea bite years and years ago that damn near killed me so hearing the word "fleas" flying around all over these discussions just cracks me up.

[leomama]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I'm not a defensive person by nature. Again, I don't know why that is lol.

These days I would say that being called a narcissist is probably the worst psychiatric insult you can get. The witch hunting surrounding NPD in the last oh, 15 years or so is just, astounding... All of a sudden everyone that's ever been mean to someone is a narcissist, that's what it looks like anyways.

In other words, just from that alone I can't say I blame you for feeling insulted to be labeled like that. Personally you don't strike me as all that narcissistic.

Your dad sounds pretty typical as far as narcissists go, he and my father would get on well.

Also, I find it darkly funny that you recovery people call after effects of growing up with NPD parents or whatever "fleas". I find it morbidly amusing because I got a physical illness from a flea bite years and years ago that damn near killed me so hearing the word "fleas" flying around all over these discussions just cracks me up.

Yeah, the word flea, I like it because it allows for the fact that we were affected by our parents , and that we can overcome it.
I really appreciate your input.

[Atypical_Disaster]

I don't think anyone is doomed just because they were dealt a bad hand growing up. I've overcome plenty myself, and my psychiatrist that I had as a teenager thought I'd wind up in the criminal justice system and nowhere else in life. Shows what she knew. Ha ha ha.

[leomama]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I don't think anyone is doomed just because they were dealt a bad hand growing up. I've overcome plenty myself, and my psychiatrist that I had as a teenager thought I'd wind up in the criminal justice system and nowhere else in life. Shows what she knew. Ha ha ha.

Wow! You've been really helpful to me just listening to what I am saying and mirroring it back to me. Most people I talk to about my father's narcissism can't be as objective as you.

Here's another thing going on in my family: my former t said he hopes I'm not raising a narc. Now it looks like I'm raising a bipolar: I have since learned that mania looks like narcissism and my daughter is definitely showing signs of bipolar, which her father was dx with.

You know what else? My dad told me my mom told him he was bipolar. Huh?

My family is crazy.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by leomama

Wow! You've been really helpful to me just listening to what I am saying and mirroring it back to me. Most people I talk to about my father's narcissism can't be as objective as you.

Here's another thing going on in my family: my former t said he hopes I'm not raising a narc. Now it looks like I'm raising a bipolar: I have since learned that mania looks like narcissism and my daughter is definitely showing signs of bipolar, which her father was dx with.

You know what else? My dad told me my mom told him he was bipolar. Huh?

My family is crazy.

The listening and then mirroring it back thing is a skill I learned initially to mimic "normal" emotions and behavior when I was a child. I've noticed a lot of people appreciate my ability to be able to mirror back at them and remain so objective, because as you just said most people just aren't good at being objective. Especially around a topic as emotionally charged as narcissism apparently is.

Mania can look a hell of a lot like narcissism, it's true. I was misdiagnosed as bipolar on two occasions that I remember because of my flamboyant grandiosity and such lol.

My family is also completely crazy. Narcissism and psychopathy are the norm in my family, if you're an emotional person with a high amount of empathy you'd be the laughing stock of any of my family's holiday gatherings.

[leomama]

Oh boy, yeah my family mocks me for being emotionally sensitive.

My d seems to be on a downward spiral.

I'm going to call a psych to get her an eval this week.

My dad and I were talking about empathy on Friday and he said he's empathetic when he can relate i.e. had the experience. I think that's sane. He reports my mom attacks him for not having empathy. She's the psychopath. I'm glad he's narcissistic , it protects him from her insanity. We talked about that too. I think he has a healthy sense of self esteem.

[snarkydaddy]

Mirroring does tend to encourage others to think you are just like them... I notice a lot of politicians, sales ppl and religious professionals do this.

I use to practice the emotions of others in a real mirror, so I would properly respond with the correct emotion when I was much younger. I got in trouble & mocked for not displaying the right affect or emotion. Now I am able to do this with my own gear, but it was hell from ages 5-25-ish

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by leomama

Oh boy, yeah my family mocks me for being emotionally sensitive.

My d seems to be on a downward spiral.

I'm going to call a psych to get her an eval this week.

My dad and I were talking about empathy on Friday and he said he's empathetic when he can relate i.e. had the experience. I think that's sane. He reports my mom attacks him for not having empathy. She's the psychopath. I'm glad he's narcissistic , it protects him from her insanity. We talked about that too. I think he has a healthy sense of self esteem.

My mother is in all likelihood a psychopath as well. Interesting that both of our parents are the ASPD/NPD combination.

As far as empathy goes, I've never "felt" it. But I have a lot of "cognitive empathy", so yes I can typically understand someone's situation, but I just don't care. The emotional connection just isn't present for me and never has been. I think that's part of why I'm so objective, it's because I don't emotionally connect so I can sit here and be very understanding but I'll never get caught up in the emotional intensity of it.

Your mother reminds me of mine, I've lost count of how many times she's verbally skinned my father alive for lacking empathy.

Having any kind of self-esteem when you're around a psychopath all the time is not an easy task. I tip my hat to him.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by snarkydaddy

Mirroring does tend to encourage others to think you are just like them... I notice a lot of politicians, sales ppl and religious professionals do this.

I use to practice the emotions of others in a real mirror, so I would properly respond with the correct emotion when I was much younger. I got in trouble & mocked for not displaying the right affect or emotion. Now I am able to do this with my own gear, but it was hell from ages 5-25-ish

I wrote something awhile ago just in a journal somewhere where I said something to the effect of, "Who am I? I'm the mirror. I am everything the other person wants to see, I am all they've ever dreamed reflected back to them. Ironically I lie by turning into another person's perceived truth."

I used to do the practicing emotions thing in an actual mirror, too. I kept getting into huge amounts of trouble for not displaying the "correct" emotions when I was younger. That was just a total buzz kill so I did whatever I could to learn to mimic what people wanted to see.

[leomama]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

My mother is in all likelihood a psychopath as well. Interesting that both of our parents are the ASPD/NPD combination.

As far as empathy goes, I've never "felt" it. But I have a lot of "cognitive empathy", so yes I can typically understand someone's situation, but I just don't care. The emotional connection just isn't present for me and never has been. I think that's part of why I'm so objective, it's because I don't emotionally connect so I can sit here and be very understanding but I'll never get caught up in the emotional intensity of it.

Your mother reminds me of mine, I've lost count of how many times she's verbally skinned my father alive for lacking empathy.

Having any kind of self-esteem when you're around a psychopath all the time is not an easy task. I tip my hat to him.

Exactly, at this point my mother is just straight up psychologically abusive to my father and since they've been together so long its impossible to separate.
Now that I've recovered from my childhood I can have empathy for my father and I can recognize things like telling me I should be at the top of my career are stemming from his narcissism and are not a reflection on me.

[snarkydaddy]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

My mother is in all likelihood a psychopath as well. Interesting that both of our parents are the ASPD/NPD combination.

As far as empathy goes, I've never "felt" it. But I have a lot of "cognitive empathy", so yes I can typically understand someone's situation, but I just don't care. The emotional connection just isn't present for me and never has been. I think that's part of why I'm so objective, it's because I don't emotionally connect so I can sit here and be very understanding but I'll never get caught up in the emotional intensity of it...

On many lvls I can appreciate the logic of this. My issue is that I have no clue what anyone is doing unless I have a pattern of that behavior in my head. And when I see that pattern I know what they are going to do next, but I have no connection to it personally. Nor do I care either. Kind of like remembering a chess move... but not a game... survival.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by leomama

Exactly, at this point my mother is just straight up psychologically abusive to my father and since they've been together so long its impossible to separate.
Now that I've recovered from my childhood I can have empathy for my father and I can recognize things like telling me I should be at the top of my career are stemming from his narcissism and are not a reflection on me.

My parents can't really separate at this point in their livers either. So they're stuck with each other. I don't have any animosity towards them. Not anymore anyways. When I did I completely trashed both of their reputations and tore apart our entire family in less than a year. And I psychologically ripped them both to shreds with a level of sadism that has caused my mother to realize that it's not wise to play with me, and my father is straight up terrified of me. Why did I do it? Pfft, they deserved it. So did the rest of my family that felt my wrath.

Nothing a narcissist says to/about you is ever personal, it's entirely about them. They're the kings and queens of projection. Nobody projects quite like a narcissist.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by snarkydaddy

On many lvls I can appreciate the logic of this. My issue is that I have no clue what anyone is doing unless I have a pattern of that behavior in my head. And when I see that pattern I know what they are going to do next, but I have no connection to it personally. Nor do I care either. Kind of like remembering a chess move... but not a game... survival.

Sometimes I have no choice but to "read" people by their patterns, because sometimes I can be clueless(which has lead to some hilarious occasions where my cover was completely blown, lol.)

I tend to think of people and of life in general like a chess board, like that's literally how I visualize it.

[snarkydaddy]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

Sometimes I have no choice but to "read" people by their patterns, because sometimes I can be clueless(which has lead to some hilarious occasions where my cover was completely blown, lol.)

I tend to think of people and of life in general like a chess board, like that's literally how I visualize it.

LOL, yes I can related to that... I just start laughing as I have no idea what is going on...and am very exposed... To me it is funny how badly I just do not get it sometimes...

Chess, yes interesting... I do not see it so much as a game... but how I learned how to play chess... Just memorize all this moves based on your opponents move and normally you win... in this case winning is I can dodge the appearance not of understanding what someone is doing. Empathy has been very elusive emotion & it is limited to just a few. When I say limited I am talking about a cat I had, & a relationship I want to be in and am in.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by snarkydaddy

LOL, yes I can related to that... I just start laughing as I have no idea what is going on...and am very exposed... To me it is funny how badly I just do not get it sometimes...

Chess, yes interesting... I do not see it so much as a game... but how I learned how to play chess... Just memorize all this moves based on your opponents move and normally you win... in this case winning is I can dodge the appearance not of understanding what someone is doing. Empathy has been very elusive emotion & it is limited to just a few. When I say limited I am talking about a cat I had, & a relationship I want to be in and am in.

I've had some hilarious fails over the years, though they were far more frequent when I was younger and not quite so experienced haha.

So for you it's about survival. For me it's about the game. Interesting.

Why do you tend to lack empathy?

Does it scare you to think that people may find out?

[leomama]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

My parents can't really separate at this point in their livers either. So they're stuck with each other. I don't have any animosity towards them. Not anymore anyways. When I did I completely trashed both of their reputations and tore apart our entire family in less than a year. And I psychologically ripped them both to shreds with a level of sadism that has caused my mother to realize that it's not wise to play with me, and my father is straight up terrified of me. Why did I do it? Pfft, they deserved it. So did the rest of my family that felt my wrath.

Nothing a narcissist says to/about you is ever personal, it's entirely about them. They're the kings and queens of projection. Nobody projects quite like a narcissist.

I prepared myself to see my parents by becoming the terminator and I actually had a good time. Its my mom that's really the problem, not my dad.
I'm glad you pointed that about my dad as he really hurt me when he said that. Recently he hurt my daughter too when he said she's a train wreck waiting to happen. Then I told that to her godmother and she said she's already a train wreck. I was kind of taken aback by that. That didn't seem very compassionate.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by leomama

I prepared myself to see my parents by becoming the terminator and I actually had a good time. Its my mom that's really the problem, not my dad.

I'm glad you pointed that about my dad as he really hurt me when he said that. Recently he hurt my daughter too when he said she's a train wreck waiting to happen. Then I told that to her godmother and she said she's already a train wreck. I was kind of taken aback by that. That didn't seem very compassionate.

I can see that from how you post, that it's your mother that's at the center of it all at the end of the day.

Narcissists can be incredibly hurtful, a lot of people call them sadists which sometimes is fair but often times I think it's not fair. Narcissists are usually a lot less concerned about maliciously harming someone than about preserving their image of themselves. They don't want their perfect reflection shattered, they'll do anything to avoid it and that often means harming others. But that's not the *point* of their behavior. If a narcissist hurts you it's because you got in their way or bruised their ego and they're desperately trying to recover from it. Sometimes victims of people with NPD are pretty surprised to learn that the abuse was never about them in the first place, it was really just about the narcissist(of course, it's all about them after all lol.)

Psychopaths and sociopaths have very different motivations than narcissists do. If your mother is a psychopath then she's probably playing a long game of power and control with your father, and every psychopath I've met loves that game no matter how they play it.

I agree that's not exactly my definition of compassionate either, and I'm an amoral asshole.

[snarkydaddy]

I do not like the attention of sticking out.
Just being me causes me to stick out... So being found out just causes a feedback loop of not having a clue... not scary at all. just more confusion, just do not want to be involved with it... For me it is like being dropped into a country where I have reference to the language and just end up staring a lot.

[leomama]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I can see that from how you post, that it's your mother that's at the center of it all at the end of the day.

Narcissists can be incredibly hurtful, a lot of people call them sadists which sometimes is fair but often times I think it's not fair. Narcissists are usually a lot less concerned about maliciously harming someone than about preserving their image of themselves. They don't want their perfect reflection shattered, they'll do anything to avoid it and that often means harming others. But that's not the *point* of their behavior. If a narcissist hurts you it's because you got in their way or bruised their ego and they're desperately trying to recover from it. Sometimes victims of people with NPD are pretty surprised to learn that the abuse was never about them in the first place, it was really just about the narcissist(of course, it's all about them after all lol.)

Psychopaths and sociopaths have very different motivations than narcissists do. If your mother is a psychopath then she's probably playing a long game of power and control with your father, and every psychopath I've met loves that game no matter how they play it.

I agree that's not exactly my definition of compassionate either, and I'm an amoral asshole.

Yep my mom's the toxic one, she was physically abusive when I was a child, she let me get

Possible trigger:

sexually abused

by other children. Now that she can't psychologically beat me up, because I became a cyborg when I was around her, well, my dad tells me stories and has told me stories for years about she mistreated him. I tell him, dad, stand up for yourself, stop making excuses for her, but he doesn't listen to me. Now he blames himself for my brother's visual disability. Its crazy.

She used to tell me how awful he was, totally triangulated me. It was horrid.

My former t told me how I could have a relationship with my father without injuring him, and I'm working my program so to speak around him so I can have a relationship with him.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by leomama

Yep my mom's the toxic one, she was physically abusive when I was a child, she let me get

Possible trigger:

sexually abused

by other children. Now that she can't psychologically beat me up, because I became a cyborg when I was around her, well, my dad tells me stories and has told me stories for years about she mistreated him. I tell him, dad, stand up for yourself, stop making excuses for her, but he doesn't listen to me. Now he blames himself for my brother's visual disability. Its crazy.


She used to tell me how awful he was, totally triangulated me. It was horrid.


My former t told me how I could have a relationship with my father without injuring him, and I'm working my program so to speak around him so I can have a relationship with him.

Your mother reminds me of an ex friend of mine. She had a lot of children and treated them much like you describe.

It's got to be tough for men targeted by female psychopaths and narcissists. They're more likely to be seen as the perpetrator just because of their gender. And even if not people would be like, "well just leave you can physically overpower her!"

Psychopaths are very good at exploiting people that have NPD. A psychopath will have a narcissist wrapped around his or her finger in no time and they'll utterly decimate the narcissist.

It sounds like she was using your father to keep the blame off of her. Pretty typical.

It sounds like you care about your father. How do you feel about your mother?