[hamster-bamster]

So my ex urges me to get rid of my attachment to him as a pathological one (I've destroyed his life and now got attached) and instead live for a while without attachments, developing an attachment to self as a step that one just cannot skip on the road to healthy relationships.

So I take it, he is talking about self-love.

I am at my wit's end.

I was not brought up to love myself. My parents always were the first. Let me mention just a couple examples - I do not want to bore you.

At one point, I left a bf for another guy (who would eventually become my first short-lived husband) in a very cruel, in your face way. The bf attempted suicide by OD which landed him in a hospital (I still do not know whether he had bp or schizophrenia but who cares; ultimately several years later he did die of suicide but it was not in connection with me). Maybe a couple of weeks later I did visit him when he was already home. And we were sort of getting there - I clearly remember sitting in his bed in my bra, already without a top (I even remember the bra, it was a nude bra without lace). But... my grandmother called and said that my mother hit depression. I quickly put on my clothes and left. It never occurred to me that my private life should take precedence. It never occurred to me to say "Well, that is too bad, I think you should call her psychiatrist now. I am not a psychiatrist". No, no such thought ever crossed my mind - depressed mother was a command I could not not obey. Period.

From an early age, my mother put me through a torture of forcing me to listen to her regrets, when she was depressed. She even regretted having married my dad - and shared it with me, the product of their union! And it wasn't as if she shared once impulsively - no, it went on and on and on, in sick cycles.

My dad is narcissistic. That says it all. I won't go into examples.

After such upbringing, how am I supposed to love myself???

[Kahrey]

My situation is much different, but I understand what you mean.

I was always brought up to care for others first. I grew up being taught selflessness to a high extent, and only now has it truly begun to affect me. I take responsibility to an extreme extent, and I tend to sacrifice anything and everything I want in order to make sure someone else is okay. Whether it's sacrificing a tuna sandwich, or the career I have always dreamed of.

Thinking of oneself was taught as selfishness, and that was a sin against God. I mean, Jesus was the ultimate example of selflessness, right? He gave His life. He was supposed to be my example to live by, so how can one put themselves ahead of anything else when trying to hold themselves to such a standard?

I'm 24 years old, and I have an older sister, and a younger brother. My father worked constantly to pay the bills, and my mother was very sick when I was young. My sister and I had the responsibility of raising our brother. We had to think of him. But as he grew a little and my mum got better, my sister needed me. We were homeschooled and kind of ridiculed by the small group of people our age we had to be around - our church youth group. So I had to be strong for her. I had to comfort her in her rejection, I had to look out for her, I had to accept any ridicule from her towards me because I knew she was just trying to fit in. My whole life I put into doing what I thought was best for everyone else. And for the past four years I have done exactly that in a marriage that is now ending. I took care of him, I did what I thought was best. I gave up school, I worked 18 hours a day to pay the bills. I did everything.

It's not necessarily self-love. It just takes realising that only you can do what's best for you. You can;t do what's best for your husband, or your boyfriend, or your mother. Of course there are exceptions (I mean, letting your child go out in the snow in underwear is just dumb!), but in general, you have to decide what you want, fixate on it, and do it. And what better time to do that than when you're not tied to another person? When the whole world is yours to take?

It's a painful process, and it hurts, but since I made the decision to end my marriage, I have never been happier. I love him to death, don't get me wrong, but it just wasn't working out and I couldn't keep trying anymore. I had to realise it wasn't failure, it simply was one thing that didn't work and time to move on. It's difficult, yes. I cry myself to sleep a lot. I close my eyes and imagine us back at our apartment sometimes, but I have never experienced such freedom in my mind. And not only that, I have gained so much clarity in regards to my illness. I can literally see the cycles. I can feel them. I'm even learning how to stop them! It's liberating when you can learn not to be selfish, not to love yourself, but to do what's best for you.

No one else can make you truly happy but you. You have to do what's best for you.

[BlueInanna]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

So my ex urges me to get rid of my attachment to him as a pathological one (I've destroyed his life and now got attached) and instead live for a while without attachments, developing an attachment to self as a step that one just cannot skip on the road to healthy relationships.

So I take it, he is talking about self-love.

I am at my wit's end.

I was not brought up to love myself. My parents always were the first. Let me mention just a couple examples - I do not want to bore you.

At one point, I left a bf for another guy (who would eventually become my first short-lived husband) in a very cruel, in your face way. The bf attempted suicide by OD which landed him in a hospital (I still do not know whether he had bp or schizophrenia but who cares; ultimately several years later he did die of suicide but it was not in connection with me). Maybe a couple of weeks later I did visit him when he was already home. And we were sort of getting there - I clearly remember sitting in his bed in my bra, already without a top (I even remember the bra, it was a nude bra without lace). But... my grandmother called and said that my mother hit depression. I quickly put on my clothes and left. It never occurred to me that my private life should take precedence. It never occurred to me to say "Well, that is too bad, I think you should call her psychiatrist now. I am not a psychiatrist". No, no such thought ever crossed my mind - depressed mother was a command I could not not obey. Period.

From an early age, my mother put me through a torture of forcing me to listen to her regrets, when she was depressed. She even regretted having married my dad - and shared it with me, the product of their union! And it wasn't as if she shared once impulsively - no, it went on and on and on, in sick cycles.

My dad is narcissistic. That says it all. I won't go into examples.

After such upbringing, how am I supposed to love myself???

Self-love is the love of oneself.
In 1956 psychologist and social philosopher Erich Fromm proposed that loving oneself is different from being arrogant, conceited or egocentric. He proposed that loving oneself means caring about oneself, taking responsibility for oneself, respecting oneself, and knowing oneself (e.g. being realistic and honest about one's strengths and weaknesses). He proposed, further, that in order to be able to truly love another person, a person needs first to love oneself in this way

Hammie, let's analyze this (first off we know you are not arrogant, conceited or egocentric, not at all). i see you doing these things already, but let's break it down:

1. caring about oneself - i see you doing this all the time, feeding yourself, eating healthy meals, to have a healthy body. being careful about choosing lovers into your life - that is good boundaries. daily walks and exercize.
2. responsiblity for oneself - yes you very much do this that I see, living by yourself, taking care of your hygeine, working on improving ALL the time.
3. respecting oneself - i consider you to highly respect yourself, you stick up for what you believe in, you believe in yourself and have educated yourself, had great jobs, seeking better jobs. You have high values, and aren't afraid to voice them, and have many admirers because of such.
4. knowing oneself - you seem to know yourself, very detailed above in your post, but you often leave out your awesome qualities.
5. being realistic and honest about one's strengths and weaknesses - you are analyzing and perfectionist to a fault about this subject. you are always open and honest about what you feel are your weaknesses, but some of these, as we have said, seem like hubby projected onto you. maybe to control you, maybe you were more comfortable with being controlled because the parents were immature and put their needs first before those of their beautiful duaghter. I think you know your strengths, you are intelligent, well-spoken, honest, kind, sensitive... to name a few. And your weaknesses.. well this just says to be realistic and honest about them, not to change them right now.

Please add to the list if you feel...

So, how are you supposed to love yourself?

Because you might already, more than you realize. If not, you work on it. It is simply broken down into these 5 categories. Most of these you have mastered more than you realize! You've been through so much painful circumstances, and you learn from them, they make you stronger for having experienced such. You / we are all able to have more wisdom, compassion, kindness, open minds for the suffering we've lived. And just because our parents may have raised us in a harmful way, we have more information to go on, what works, what doesn't work. You have every potential to be a better parent than they were. I have no doubt you are mastering this self-love concept.

Will he think of some next task for you to complete after this one? No offense, I know you care deeply for the man. And where does he stack up on the mastery of self love?

[moremi]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

So my ex urges me to get rid of my attachment to him as a pathological one (I've destroyed his life and now got attached) and instead live for a while without attachments, developing an attachment to self as a step that one just cannot skip on the road to healthy relationships.

So I take it, he is talking about self-love.

I am at my wit's end.

I was not brought up to love myself. My parents always were the first. Let me mention just a couple examples - I do not want to bore you.

At one point, I left a bf for another guy (who would eventually become my first short-lived husband) in a very cruel, in your face way. The bf attempted suicide by OD which landed him in a hospital (I still do not know whether he had bp or schizophrenia but who cares; ultimately several years later he did die of suicide but it was not in connection with me). Maybe a couple of weeks later I did visit him when he was already home. And we were sort of getting there - I clearly remember sitting in his bed in my bra, already without a top (I even remember the bra, it was a nude bra without lace). But... my grandmother called and said that my mother hit depression. I quickly put on my clothes and left. It never occurred to me that my private life should take precedence. It never occurred to me to say "Well, that is too bad, I think you should call her psychiatrist now. I am not a psychiatrist". No, no such thought ever crossed my mind - depressed mother was a command I could not not obey. Period.

From an early age, my mother put me through a torture of forcing me to listen to her regrets, when she was depressed. She even regretted having married my dad - and shared it with me, the product of their union! And it wasn't as if she shared once impulsively - no, it went on and on and on, in sick cycles.

My dad is narcissistic. That says it all. I won't go into examples.

After such upbringing, how am I supposed to love myself???

It is going to take time and a lot of work but you will learn to love yourself. You have to learn to be selfish sometimes. Make sure you put yourself first before your mother and other family members. The only people in your life who should come first are your children and even then there are times you have to put yourself first.

My mother was the same way, she shared her hatred for my father constantly which I felt a hatred for myself since I was a part of him. I have his deep dark brown eyes that she had to look at. My mother and her men always came first it didnt matter what it was we needed if mom wanted something it was never a question as to what we were getting. She would drag me out in the middle of the night to meet men in hotel rooms, once she took me and left for two weeks with me to one of her boyfriends houses. I guess atleast she took me but she left my brothers and sisters behind with her husband and I felt an obligation to care for them because their father was a heroin addict. I dont have any good childhood memories with my mother. All I remember is having to grow up real quick because someone had to take care of all the kids she was giving birth to.

Its just like we were talking about on here last night. Being the best you that you can be everyday. Thats all you can do. Retrain your thoughts. The next time they call and you are in the middle of something just simply tell them you cant be there you are in the middle of something and someone else will have to take care of calling the pdoc this time, then hang up and return to getting your groove on. When you're done with what you were doing you can always go and check on her if you like.

You have to live this life for you first, be the best you that you can be everyday. Some days are not going to be that great but others are going to be wonderful. Love who you are without being a caretaker. Who are you without being a caretaker? Maybe you need to find that out and get to know that person?

[sweepy62]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

So my ex urges me to get rid of my attachment to him as a pathological one (I've destroyed his life and now got attached) and instead live for a while without attachments, developing an attachment to self as a step that one just cannot skip on the road to healthy relationships.

So I take it, he is talking about self-love.

I am at my wit's end.

I was not brought up to love myself. My parents always were the first. Let me mention just a couple examples - I do not want to bore you.

At one point, I left a bf for another guy (who would eventually become my first short-lived husband) in a very cruel, in your face way. The bf attempted suicide by OD which landed him in a hospital (I still do not know whether he had bp or schizophrenia but who cares; ultimately several years later he did die of suicide but it was not in connection with me). Maybe a couple of weeks later I did visit him when he was already home. And we were sort of getting there - I clearly remember sitting in his bed in my bra, already without a top (I even remember the bra, it was a nude bra without lace). But... my grandmother called and said that my mother hit depression. I quickly put on my clothes and left. It never occurred to me that my private life should take precedence. It never occurred to me to say "Well, that is too bad, I think you should call her psychiatrist now. I am not a psychiatrist". No, no such thought ever crossed my mind - depressed mother was a command I could not not obey. Period.

From an early age, my mother put me through a torture of forcing me to listen to her regrets, when she was depressed. She even regretted having married my dad - and shared it with me, the product of their union! And it wasn't as if she shared once impulsively - no, it went on and on and on, in sick cycles.

My dad is narcissistic. That says it all. I won't go into examples.

After such upbringing, how am I supposed to love myself???

hambam you are never a bore i get what you are saying i grew up not loving myself but trying to love others and putting my needs on the back burner to tend to others so self love is a great start its still difficult for me to even say self love but i am trying so hang in there

[faerie_moon_x]

(((Hamster)))

I feel for you so much.

I have this issue as well. How to love myself when my past is full of examples of not being loved.

I have no answers for you because I am in the same boat. But I can say you're not alone!

[purpledaisy]

Hamster, you have said several times that you destroyed his life. Maybe I've missed more info here on the forum, but how did you ruin his life?

He's a grown man. Isn't he able to move on with his own life?

Love starts as an interest
something we want to do
it starts out kind of selfish
letting ourselves do what we want to

it's feeling the good feelings
of something bright and new
and getting lost in it
something we have to let ourselves do

in the case of self love
it's letting ourselves go
and believing we are worth it
and letting our real selves show

it's something that is vulnerable
and really hard to do
but once you start it's hard to stop
it's the road to finding you

it's forgiving yourself today
and letting yourself shine through
all the scars and pain that won't go away
it's something unnatural to do

but to give yourself this gift
and to accept what's done is done
is the key to feeling that much needed lift
it's love, and in time I know it will come

[cocoabeans]

Originally Posted by purpledaisy

Hamster, you have said several times that you destroyed his life. Maybe I've missed more info here on the forum, but how did you ruin his life?

He's a grown man. Isn't he able to move on with his own life?

That is what I've been thinking but, I really do not understand what you're on about sometimes Hamster.

Has anyone ever told you that you think too much? I used to be told that all the time, have panics and just go on about the crazy things in my brain, comments people said even years ago and never understood what that comment meant then, I stopped, started meditating and simply refused to analyse everything. My brain is still a strange place but, still!

People talk nonsense all the time, not everything said has meaning that can linger past the moment. Perhaps, you'll be better off writing off his comment as such babbling and taking care of yourself. He is just a guy after all. Not some Jesus, Messiah, wisdom bum.

Or come here and make me some food because I'm too thin and lazy about such things and hear you enjoy it!

[BlueInanna]

Intelligent people do tend to think a lot, I think... :P

It's the only way to work through something... I'm here when I can be to listen and try to help.

Hamster- let yourself off the hook!

[BlueInanna]

Originally Posted by landskaperdan

Love starts as an interest
something we want to do
it starts out kind of selfish
letting ourselves do what we want to

it's feeling the good feelings
of something bright and new
and getting lost in it
something we have to let ourselves do

in the case of self love
it's letting ourselves go
and believing we are worth it
and letting our real selves show

it's something that is vulnerable
and really hard to do
but once you start it's hard to stop
it's the road to finding you

it's forgiving yourself today
and letting yourself shine through
all the scars and pain that won't go away
it's something unnatural to do

but to give yourself this gift
and to accept what's done is done
is the key to feeling that much needed lift
it's love, and in time I know it will come

This is great, Dan! You write it?

Yes. I wrote it for Hamster.

Dan that is beautiful!

[venusss]

Originally Posted by purpledaisy

Hamster, you have said several times that you destroyed his life. Maybe I've missed more info here on the forum, but how did you ruin his life?

He's a grown man. Isn't he able to move on with his own life?

from what I read... he is also a problematic one. It seems that he is doing the "look how you hurt me" thing. Not cool.

A guilt trip? OH NO HE DOESN'T! Please don't feed into it Hamster! What a selfish, selfish bad thing to do.

[BlueInanna]

Originally Posted by landskaperdan

It's the only way to work through something... I'm here when I can be to listen and try to help.

Hamster- let yourself off the hook!

Yes, let yourself off the hook. and it really could be that you know even more about self love than he does.

He is "dangling carrots" I don't think anything will be good enough for him. It's like he wants you to fit in a little glass box and look pretty. But I don't think that goes with your values of who you are, your intelligence, what you're capable of. But you doubt your true values/beliefs of your capabilities.

And seems he's very passively trying to hurt you because you hurt him. He's a psychologist, should use skills he's studied and get over it already.

[bluemountains]

Hamster,
It seems that your ex is the one person who can make you feel very insecure-whether intentional or not!
From what I have gathered from your posts, you are a strong person (overcame the threat of homelessness with a decent job), caring (willing to love and foster cats), and talented (your menus!). These qualities demonstrate a very loving, caring person, and I'll bet that some of that love is garnered on yourself!
Bluemountains

I agree with all said. He is a psychologist right? I knew he was that or a therapist, couldn't remember which. He KNOWS better.

Yes you made mistakes, yes you took responsibility, and yes you are trying to improve your self and learn from it. He played a role in all this too. My ex was very abusive, physically, verbally, emotionally, however, I also had a role. I could have left sooner, I could have made other choices, and I am responsible for my part. I also made mistakes, and that is mine, I own it.

I could try to punish him and make him pay for what he did forever, but why? What is the point in that, I have my life back, my freedom back, I have my self esteem back, everything I got back and even a better version that I had before he came into my life. It was my responsibility to do so. With your ex's knowledge, and field, he has to know this isn't right. I could have took my experience with him and let it cripple me, or I could take it as an opportunity to grow and a learning experience. That is just part of life, and he has a choice in this.

You do need self love Hamster, you cannot grow and thrive without it. Look at the things you have been working on!!! I would call all that self love, if you could just shift your intentions from doing to please him, or right wrongs, to doing it for yourself.

You are already doing some of the self love actions, you just need to get the mind and heart in line with them! That's what I think.

If he is thinking about him, and you are thinking about him, who the heck is thinking about you?

http://www.abundancetapestry.com/how...lf-in-17-ways/This is actually a pretty good list! And this is a good break down of what real self love is http://www.mind-your-reality.com/self_love.html.

I think he is right that you need to not be attached to him tho, I think maybe you could use a little more attachment to nurturing and loving yourself too. Attachment is not always bad, depending on where and how it is being used.

This is an interesting quote about relationships. ...

"Everything and everyone is a mirror. Learn to recognize yourself in other people. It is only when you understand what it truly means to see yourself reflected back at you, that there is no room for blame, there is no room for judgement and there is no room to feel like a victim of another person's actions or words. There is only room for real love based on understanding and gratitude. Compromise comes easy, forgiveness is a given and growth is inevitable." Tania Kotsos

I know only you can see this quote here, but this is something that your ex could benefit from thinking about too maybe.

oh Hamster,

One more thing, where do you think you are it in the grieving stage of loosing this relationship? I know that you have written about having a hard time accepting how it is now. Maybe continuing to work through the grieving process of this loss, and acceptance will really help you become unattached to him?

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by purpledaisy

Hamster, you have said several times that you destroyed his life. Maybe I've missed more info here on the forum, but how did you ruin his life?

He's a grown man. Isn't he able to move on with his own life?

In many ways. First, destroyed two careers. He used to be a practicing psychologist in Europe, but there he had an MA in psychology and it was enough. When he moved to California, MA became not enough. To be a psychologist in California you need a PhD. So he signed up for a long-distance PhD program and was almost done when he met me. He started an internship in SF and finished it with glowing evals. He was even offered a PT job post internship, which was rare. But he got burned out living with my kid from my first marriage whom I did not manage at all and he could not finish the PhD program. He had two more PT jobs on top of the mental health worker job in SF, and I was home pregnant and NOT taking care of my son. So he did not finish - and I am a capable writer, had I been in that situation now I would have actually been helpful in writing those remaining term papers. But I did not to that. Then a couple of years later I sent my son to live with my dad and my second daughter was born a couple of days later. My ex started going to an adult school and became a computer technician - he is very talented and self-taught in this area. He got a job where he would fly to the middle of American nowhere to set up computer networks for newly opened franchises of a major hotel chain. And I... got a job offer I could not resist. Household name company. He could not continue with the job that had him away from home for days while I was working FT - the kids were too little for that. So he quit. And now he wants to go back to work, but his gap on the resume is too big and for IT jobs he is too old - there is well known age discrimination in the IT field. For psychology, age does not matter, but he would have to go to school for MFT for a couple of years and then spend endless hours interning for free before becoming eligible for the licensing exam. Even if I get the job I am now hoping to get and start paying him child support as we agreed when we signed the marital settlement agreement, he in a few years would still get in the red. And that - my getting this job - would be the best case scenario. And the girls feel ashamed of him, he says, because he is not working. The girls want him to be like their friends' parents - doing something. And he is upset with me for not finding him a job at the household name company when I was there - everyone else finds jobs for their relatives and I was busy doing other things, including two in-your-face near-affairs on the job (in hindsight committed to get a rise out of him - to hurt him; my style). I shared some of my past with him recently and he says that had I disclosed it when we were dating, it would have been last I saw him seriously - or that at least he would have sent me to get some healing and only then come back. Our children would never have been born had I made proper disclosures. I did talk a lot about childhood emotional and sexual abuse to him, but I did not mention my own cruelty. I took pleasure in pitting one guy against another. That was my go-to pleasure. I never knew what to do with love, even though destiny was giving me male love very generously - but I had no idea what to do with it other than cause jealousy and hurt. So now that he knows it, he says that he is not interested in people like me. He knew back then that such people existed and back then knew that he did not want to have anything in common with them. So in a way these two beautiful kids of ours are a product of my non-disclosure.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by cocoabeans

That is what I've been thinking but, I really do not understand what you're on about sometimes Hamster.

Has anyone ever told you that you think too much? I used to be told that all the time, have panics and just go on about the crazy things in my brain, comments people said even years ago and never understood what that comment meant then, I stopped, started meditating and simply refused to analyse everything. My brain is still a strange place but, still!

People talk nonsense all the time, not everything said has meaning that can linger past the moment. Perhaps, you'll be better off writing off his comment as such babbling and taking care of yourself. He is just a guy after all. Not some Jesus, Messiah, wisdom bum.

Or come here and make me some food because I'm too thin and lazy about such things and hear you enjoy it!

Well, food... I made them lamb loin chops, brussels sprouts and asparagus, in their apartment because mine does not have a working broiler for the chops. He said "Thank you for cooking our dinner". And tomorrow I will cook my bean and chard soup. So in a way we are back to normal, just at a distance and I am disillusioned - I do understand that lamb (which I would have been happy to cook for you too, Cocoa) does not compensate for his losses.

There is a therapy for bp called social rhythm. I feel that it applies to me. When I was cooking for them weekly, we had a rhythm and everything went well. Then I skipped two weekends, preparing for an interview, and something happened - I started approaching him inappropriately, telling things that you would share in therapy but not with an ex, etc. But it is OK, it is all past now, and I did the right thing preparing for the interview - I did well during the interview, I have been told, and, not to jinx it, hope to get a position if not now then several months down the line. So things are OK. And now how he treats me depends on how he feels - he now has a back belt that relieves back pain and he says that being pain-free causes euphoria. When he is in much pain, he remembers how in the past when he was in pain I would come and torture him by complaining that he had ruined my life. Yes, it did happen - I did not finish law school having his children and every once in a while I feel waves of resentment against him because had I finished law school I would have had a better career. But the children were my idea, the first child was a product of my mania - I asked for her while in the act (literally - I still remember how we were positioned in the room and his being on top) a month before the last year of law school started, and he agreed. The second child was conceived in normal circumstances, outside of mania, but it was my idea to have closely-spaced (2 years) children. By the time I was ready to go back to law school, the bar association rules demanded that I start anew, and that was too much for me. And I irrationally begrudge him not finishing law school.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by landskaperdan

Yes. I wrote it for Hamster.

It is beautiful! I am very appreciative of his gift.

[hamster-bamster]

Well I do not even know where to begin... Thank you everyone for writing such great things about me.

[bluemountains]

I have to chime in again, Hamster. You have been blessed with three children. You love them. Your intent is to provide for them. Your ex should not put his own shortcomings on you. If he did not finish classes, or if he is not able to get the position he wants, it is not your fault. You are working hard to make things better for you and your children. I understand that he is the more stable parent for your children to live with, but he should never make your feel guilty for what he feels that he was not able to accomplish because of your relationship. If either I or more husband played the what if game, I would hate it because my children are first in my life, and even though we are broke most of the time, I would never give up any of this.
Bluemountains