that is how medications should work, ideally

Hammy I consider us friends, I believe that you do too. You've known me for a long time, so I hope by now you take what I say as is, but, if you did feel shamed by my bluntness when I called us both greedy, I apologize. I do. Sorry to curse on your thread, I'm sure you know me well enough to know I have a short fuse regarding such ridiculousness as adding hidden messages to my posts

Plus how many times have others here been told watch-it-you sound manic? Isn't that "judgemental" too in a way?

And it's not "shaming" to say something ain't healthy. Or should I jump on people saying diet coke is bad, because I love it SOOOO? I have been told I eat horrible (and it was probably truth, since "lot of icecream" is not a nutritional food, even in Italy... just one example) and I did not break out in eating disorder. We are not talking of strict restricting. But if you think you could lose weight... then it's a choice between "I love food so" and "I wanna have good body". It's not zero sum game either.

I will, when I hit 70. Lithium is not safe after 70. I met a woman when I was inpatient at Stanford who was in her 70s and off lithium and a mess. In and out of hospitals. While she was on Lithium, she led a productive life and never needed inpatient. But off Lithium, what a mess. So I will have to deal with it. Some people take another form of Lithium called Lithium Orotate. Maybe in that form it is safe after 70. I will look into Lithium Orotate first. And then if I have to apply willpower, I will, but only out of necessity. I would not choose to apply willpower. I don't think it is smart to apply willpower and it is definitely not very effective. Why is there so much talk about sticking to an exercise program? "Find something that you LIKE; get an exercise buddy for company, fun, and accountability. Vary your route, do something fun." Why? It is because willpower does not work - it is very limited. If people were able to just apply willpower and do elliptical training for 45 minutes every day, they would not need to "recruit an exercise buddy, start slow and build up", etc. etc. They would just pedal that elliptical for 45 minutes each day. And SOME people can do it, but the majority cannot. The company I work for subsidizes gym membership, but far fewer than 100% of employees take advantage of that perk. Why? The gym is nice, with a towel service. Why low participation? Well, some people have a valid reason: they prefer running or biking or playing basketball outside. But they are in the minority. What about the rest of the non-participating employees? Why do they slack off? Because of the limitations of willpower.

More to the point: I did not finish lunch today. Felt full and threw away some black beans and Mexican vegetables. Unheard of for me. No willpower: did not want to finish the meal.

O.o

why you spend so much time defending the view that you are weak weakling?

world would be much worse place if people started saying "we CAIN'T, JUST CAN'T, CAN'T YOU SEE WE CAN'T" as soon as they gotten intelligent. We'd be still in caves, cause will power to do something more doesn't work and we can't do big things...

No, I don't get you. Especially since you proven to be driven and to have some willpower.

I know it's not sciency for you enough... but human mind is strong. Saying you CAN is as strong as saying you CAN'T.

What makes you think that calorie restricting is effective for getting a good body? Most diets are ineffective in the LT. Dieting is a huge industry, but it is not effective. Some diets are "moderately effective" and nothing has been shown to be better than "moderate", with huge availability of data including longitudinal data.

So I still have that question - what is "disordered eating" as distinct from an "eating disorder"? How does switching the order of the words result in a completely new term? I am curious.

I think (as Trippin') said "I rather get on med (which can wreck my cognition - I recall you worrying about it) then simply say no to too much food" as slightly disordered. And those long paragraphs you posted "I like X apples, but hate Y apples and this and that"...shows you are slightly obsessed about food. See, many people buy "apples" and don't even know brands exist. Same with milk and other stuff. You certainly seem to think of your food a lot.

I don't diet. I just... try not to eat too much. Getting small bowl to eat from helped. I would feel piggy to refill it many times, so I just stop. Otherwise I would nom and nom and nom and nom... If I feel my clothes are getting tighter, I limit stuff that is not good for me. Chips, too much fat. Drown my salads in less dressing. Walk more.

I am not a weak weakling - I am someone who chooses smart choices over brute force. Willpower is brute force. I as you say have some of it, but I try to limit its application. Sure, I clean the kitty litter, do a boring job, perform Kegel exercises that I do not like doing - that is all willpower. Moderate amount of it. But I do not persevere through cold water when there is warm water available - in that, I am a hedonist rather than masochist. I like my warm water and am looking forward to swimming in it soon and regularly.

People do big things because they design smart solutions. Scalable solutions. You bring an example of caves, but I do not see it as valid. The progress of civilization has been in a large part due to smart solutions, such as the discovery of fire and the vastly larger range of edible foods through heated food prep that was enabled by the discovery of fire. Sure, to keep the fire up you need self-discipline, but the discovery is a smart solution rather than application of willpower. There have always been sweatshops, from the Egyptian pyramids through the modern age Chinese factories producing iPhones; that is willpower of slaves at work. But each breakthrough, including the invention of said iPhones is a combination of luck, serendipity, being smart, and only some willpower.

And I still have not seen the definition of "disordered eating". Nor have I seen you explain why so many employees of a premier Silicon Valley tech company do not exercise when given an opportunity and despite (obviously due to their high level of education and access to the Internet) being informed of the crucial benefits of exercise. Could you explain it? You have many general ideas, which is definitely great, but when I ask specific targeted questions, would you please attempt to answer them? I hope this is not asking too much.

I explained my definition of disordered eating. Read above.

And I don't care why people in freaking SILLICON VALLEY are lazy and prefer popping pills to doing something.

Nor am I oblidged to answer your questions, when I don't know, don't care... or you simply dismiss the answer as not being according to your likes.

Sorry Venus, I did not see this - too many new posts. You did provide a definition. And no, I do not want to be like most Americans who buy tasteless apples. I really really care about the variety I eat. I care about the variety of mangos: in the world, there are more varieties of mangoes than even apples (amazing, but apparently true), and I only like those that are called Champaigne mangoes. I cannot eat the most common mangoes - I find them tasteless. I also am not sexually attracted to Phillipino, Indian, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese men - never ever. I even posted about it on there and the response was that it is just the way it is and I should not try to fight it. I am perfectly happy living with this "obsession" over rare apples. It is much better for me than eating tasteless American fare and not being knowledgeable about apple varieties. If you have had what is called "American cheese", you would know what I mean.

The main reason behind your being thin is being young with fast metabolism.

I guess I am in no way such big "taster" as you I guess, because i couldn't tell brands of apples. I prefer some, sure, but to tell brand? My grandfather tried to teach me to distinquish. I am glad to tell apples from pears

(and my mom always says I am terribly picky eater when i insist on certain brands of soy sauce, yogurts or pasta).

At our farmer's market they sell "kale chips". I have never tried them. I do not need to because I do not like potato chips. The only crisp food that I like is Finnish rye crackers, at 20 calories per piece. But if kale chips work to substitute for potato chips (I do not know if they do but the kale chips stall is pretty busy), then it is a smart solution. Instead of applying willpower and saying no to chips while continuing to want the crisp texture, satisfy the want by eating healthful chips. Kale is a nutritional powerhouse, unlike peeled potatoes.

I think hammy appreciates food because her palette is able to disern the difference in taste. Not many have the patience to learn the difference in taste. It is sometimes hard to see willpower because it can turn into a habit that you learn to enjoy.

I want to cook like hammy. ~_~

I have my favorite brand of yogurt. It is maple yogurt. There is an American expression "better than sex" and it is used usually to describe foods such as rich chocolate cakes and stuff like that, but I do not care for the cakes - for me it is maple yogurt.

I distinguish varieties of pears, too. And I only eat one particular variety of tangerines but not all the others. That one, I love. The rest, inedible. It is that big of a difference. So I guess I am a taster. I think as I explore wines I will also end up liking some and disliking others.

Okay, I'm not trying to attack you. Actually, I didn't quote you or speak directly to you because I was speaking to posts in this thread in general. I did not mean to offend. At all.

I'm just saying that the eating disorder treatment community is clear that making food a morality issue contributes to unhealthy eating attitudes.

I am sensitive to Hammy's struggle and I wanted to chime in so that she didn't feel alone and attacked.

EJ

I think I am given this appreciation as compensation for my lack of musical ear. I cannot distinguish sounds; I do not have "musical memory" except for just a few pieces. I do not recognize music that I have heard many times. It is BAAAD. That bad. But taste and smell, or yes! I remember how mediocre coffee with milk tasted and smelled in my elementary school's cafeteria. And the pungent taste of arugula - oh, to die for.

But 3/4 of American food I cannot eat at all because it is too salty or too spicy for me, or both. So some tastes I will never learn in my life.

Thank you. Not only eating disorder treatment community but the wider Health at Every Size, "eating competence" community believes that bringing morality into food discourse is very detrimental.

Whether it will do anything bad cognitively is something I can only find out by trying. If it does something cognitively, I will switch to Wellbutrin that does not produce cognitive side effects. Wellbutrin also causes loss of appetite and weight loss but not to such an extent. Wellbutrin increases sex drive in some people which would be interesting and is an AD, so the main thing on it is not to go manic. But since I take Geodon+Lithium against mania, I can probably handle taking Wellbutrin. So I have options - between the two one will hopefully work. In general, I think it is unfair to relegate overweight bp people to diet and exercise. If a medication (Zyprexa and Depakote) got me to where I am at, there should be a medication or two to reverse this effect.

More on willpower. When I was growing up, I drank tea without sugar. Then something happened. Whether it was a medication side effect or not, but I started needing a sweetener. First, I used Xylitol. Xylitol tastes great, is a low glycemic index food (this is very good), and is a proven aid in dental care. But, it has calories. Fewer than sugar but still. So I switched to stevia, a sweetener herb. No calories. Unpleasant taste that goes away with regular use. But, still carbohydrates - 3 g per cup of tea and I drank so many cups a day it was staggering. Plus stevia costs money. But without it, I could not drink tea at all. It tasted bitter and disgusting. I could not will my way to drinking it.

Then, I started on Metformin, and my regular taste came back immediately. I can drink tea without sweetener. I returned unopened boxes of stevia to the grocery store for a refund. Metformin does not produce any side effects and is cheap (it was invented in 1920s). So I am glad I have found a solution where I least expected it. Who would have known that some almost 100 year old medication would restore my original taste?

ELIZA JANE I apologize for going off at you. I'm sorry for being so rude...

I am very surprised at the reaction. By how much I post it should be self-evident that I do not exercise enough. So clearly there is lack of willpower . Don't you see it?

To take some credit though, I never sit while posting - I am either on my tummy or standing. So it is not detrimental to my health in that way. But swapping some posting/reading/posting/reading --> exercise could be a fine step forward. Well, maybe, one day!

I usually eat a mix of unsalted nuts as an afternoon snack and I do not want them today. I do not even want to think of them, I feel so full.

Those are two different things.

Your wild sexual desires can be transformed to masturbation effectively, so you can easily put a positive spin on them. Masturbation is healthy for you on many levels as we all know. Or depending on your partner you can even incorporate your fantasy into partner sex, just not with me because I do not lust after Michelle Obama. or any woman for that matter but her in particular.

The desire to spend is just useless to me. I am so glad I do not have it. And projects, oh! I have read a thread here about projects and remembered how I used to buy those craft projects and home organization projects and never start on them or start and not finish and all of that is in the past, thanks god!

Venus,

I thought more about it and came to the conclusion that you have a defect similar to mine. You have a defective sense of taste and I have a defect in music appreciation. The difference between us in that you do not recognize your defect and are even proud of it, while I know that I am defective. Look, Trippin posted her 11PM playlist. How many names did I recognize? One (!) - cranberries. I promptly left her thread. I have nothing to contribute to it. She is clearly superior to me and she can hear what I cannot and be happy with it. I did not write: "Trippin, you are obsessed with music, why do you distinguish between all those songs - some other people can just listen to any generic music". I know that she is gifted with something I do not have.

Nothing has ever helped me with music. That my aunt is a musician did not help. That I was taught how to play piano did not help. Later on I had two composers for lovers, one extra composer for a male friend, and a bunch of gfs who were pianists. I listened to them play, went to concerts with them... and nothing helped. My friend D likes to Skype me when it is about 3AM his time, drink his wine and listen to classical music and talk about it. For him listening to music with a friend is happiness. Last time it was Mozart. I was so bored that I positioned myself in such a way as to make my keystrokes invisible and started posting and responding to email. I like Mozart, but I cannot become immersed in his music for a long time. Back when I was mothering my girls, I would take them to several Nutcracker performances by different ballet companies in one season. I love ballet - both visually and aurally. But first of all visually. I loved the opening sounds of the Nutcracker to the point of crying once... but if you play them to me now, I might not recognize them. Despite having been to more than 10 (!) Nutcrackers performances in the Bay Area alone.

I do differentiate the sounds of human voice well and I care for the sound of male voice to an extreme: it is the main component of attraction to me, much more so than looks. Why so dumb when it comes to music and so discriminating when it comes to conversational male voice? God knows.

What seems an obsession with food to you is not only normal to me but desirable. I like that I can distinguish between Swedish and Finnish crackers even though they are similar. I distinguish between feta cheeses from different countries and I like this way. I definetely wouldn't want to live in a world where all apples are indistuinguishable. How boring, my god! I will exaggerate my analogy but it is almost like being color-blind. And you say that you can tell pears from apples - how, may I ask? By the shape or the taste? I would never want to become a person who cannot tell the fat content of milk by tasting it. I enjoy dairy from different animals: goat cheese and sheep's milk yogurt and sheep's milk cheese. Sheep's dairy is expensive so I do not eat much of it, but what I do I definitely enjoy and I am thankful that the world of dairy is not limited to cow's milk derivatives. I distinguish between different brands of olive oil. My nuts are ranked: walnuts are the best, then filberts (hazelnuts), then almonds, then pecans as so-so. I would not want to live in a world that just has generic nuts.

I am equally discriminating visually. I appreciate the many faces of Blacks and Asians - I do see infinite variety in them and if someone teaches me I would probably be able to tell what province a Chinese person is from by his or her looks.

But with sounds of music, I am just hopeless.

Whose defect is bigger? I think that mine is. If I could make a swap, I would give up my discriminating taste in food and drink in order to gain musical ear and a discriminating ability to appreciate music.

I even think that maybe your bisexuality was given to you as compensation for the "low resolution" (too few pixels?) in food taste. You have a wider range of sexual options and that makes up for the sensory defect in taste. Makes sense? Why not - it is well-known that blind people have a much more developed sense of touch than normal people.

I do enjoy good food. BUt as a poor student who lived too long in dorms with shared kitchen (you cannot really cook well in shared kitchen) and as backpacker, I learned to eat food to fill me up.

I think I am a good cook, prepared few family b-day parties... but I have other preferences too. And I go through "food and sleep? Waste of time". As you see I am spiritualist/hippie/philosopher. Beauty of landscape often feeds me, it seems. (and then I nom something in some street vendor, praying it's safe).

So, I do think it's about a habits.

And no, i don't think music is my deficiency. Music kept me alive few times (eventhough I cannot sing or play instrument...)

Also... are you into any art at all?

Because you seems so uberanalyctical... and arts and music are not rational means. It's not 68BPM/use the word love three times and use this and that instrument, pitch your voice in the right moment... and people gonna love it!

Most artsy people are hopelessly impractical. While techincal people are nitpicky about arts (I knew on woman with technical education who was irritated by asymetric flowers).

So I have a rational explanation behind what has been happening - one that does not require a belief in a medication. I posted this message on the same day that I started biking, and that is why I have a smaller appetite.

Also, I have been thinking about being a "taster", as Venus called me. I realize that this is SO correct. It is not just that I can tell varieties of apples and pears and mangoes.

- I eat New Zealand and Aussie lamb but not American lamb - a huge difference in taste
- I prefer Greek yogurt because it is strained which makes it thicker
- I like lamb but not pork. I try pork every year thinking that perhaps this time I would like it but no, I never like it.
- The only seafood I eat is calamari.
- This morning I tried an egg white omelette because the cafeteria ran out of regular eggs. The taste was horrifying. I would never try it again. Taking the yolks out makes THAT big of a difference.
- Pretzels and pickled dills are the only salty foods I eat.
- I can only eat walnuts bought fresh from the farmers' market and stored in a fridge, as walnuts should be stored. Walnuts that are sold at regular stores and kept on shelves taste rancid to me.
- I taste when food is starting to go bad before other people notice it.
- I do not eat diced cooked carrots because they are sugary. I always cut carrots in julienne strips. It is not my taste delusion - good cookbooks describe how varying the way carrots are cut results in different tastes.
- Dark chocolate is splendid, but low cocoa content chocolate is despicable. Milk chocolate and chocolate with fillings are both bad.
- I love baklava from one specific Afgani restaurant, as well as one I make myself (have not made it in ages but know how to, using a food processor). Other places do not know how to make baklava.

And the list goes on and on. It is just my world in which I have always lived. Food has never been "generic" to me. And I know that some of my tastes are extreme - for instance, I can eat a package of fresh unsweetened cranberries in a day, which is not something most other people would consider appealing, but I love the feel, the crunch, and the sour taste. Fresh lemons are also not something most people eat. You can tell that I do not have a hard time meeting my body's vitamin C needs!

***

I am into art appreciation, but not making art. The only thing I make well with my hands is food. I am not very dexterous and I am forced to pay people to do things for which I lack dexterity and skill, such as pedicures.