[hamster-bamster]

So my p-doc prescribed Topamax but either forgot to fax the prescription to the pharmacy or what, but I still have not received the Topamax.

I am hoping to lose weight on Topamax. Topamax reduces appetite in many patients.

Well... for two nights in a row, while anxiously waiting for this medication and being hopeful that it would help me while at the same time being concerned that it would give me unacceptable cognitive side effects, I... ate tiny dinners. Geodon is not absorbed without food so I eat some, just enough to make Geodon available to the body. I have been using the computer all evening long, not eating, and in 20 minutes I will go to sleep. I need to eat something so I will have some farmer's cheese and that's it.
And I am not hungry - I will eat the farmer's cheese only because I need some food.

That is the kind of effectiveness that is ideal. You are not taking the medication but only waiting for it and it is already effective.

If waiting for Topamax is so effective, I can wait forever - this way I will not need to worry about cognitive side effects at all.

[Anika.]

Hamster, this is how the self should work, ideally. You always give so much credit to the medications, but you leave something out and that is YOU. You very much do the work yourself.

Some would call it placebo effect. I am going to call it your self effect. You have worked hard, and we all know that, time to give yourself some credit for it too.

I am glad that you are doing good with this, I hope it continues as long as you are eating enough. You are a strong person you know, you have quite a bit of will power. I hope you know that too.

[venusss]

Hamster, this is how the self should work, ideally. You always give so much credit to the medications, but you leave something out and that is YOU. You very much do the work yourself.

yup. It seems you love your pills more then yourself. Give yourself some damn credit. It might not all sciency and fact based, but you do matter as person.

I know you dismiss willpower... but it IS strong factor in life. And you do have it, and could work with it more, if you acknowledged your abilities.

[Eliza Jane]

Wait, weren't you going to try Wellbutrin?

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Anika.

Hamster, this is how the self should work, ideally. You always give so much credit to the medications, but you leave something out and that is YOU. You very much do the work yourself.

Some would call it placebo effect. I am going to call it your self effect. You have worked hard, and we all know that, time to give yourself some credit for it too.

I am glad that you are doing good with this, I hope it continues as long as you are eating enough. You are a strong person you know, you have quite a bit of will power. I hope you know that too.

No will power with food, no!

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Eliza Jane

Wait, weren't you going to try Wellbutrin?

Next; first, Topamax. Then, if it works some but not all, a combo Topamax +WB.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

yup. It seems you love your pills more then yourself. Give yourself some damn credit. It might not all sciency and fact based, but you do matter as person.

I know you dismiss willpower... but it IS strong factor in life. And you do have it, and could work with it more, if you acknowledged your abilities.

I do have the willpower to work and to go to bed on time, but not with food. I do not have willpower with food nor have any desire to practice willpower with food. There are foods that I do not eat, e.g. pasta, but I do not miss them. If I want something, I eat it. I like to eat Finnish crackers till I finish the bag, I do it. Sure, it is a virtuous whole-rye food, but still, I eat too many pieces. I need something that would not make me want to eat that many pieces - I really, really do not have any intention to restrict myself via will power. I would feel really crappy if I had to put willpower between me and food.

[venusss]

Why is food so important to you that you rather take something that might have bad effect on your cognition than simply be more... careful and cautious?

Imho, it sounds bit like disordered eating. Sure, everybody has their foods they have hard time stopping eating... but to be so defensive about it "i can't stop unless something stops me" is bit... out there... me thinks there might be something... psychological behind it. Healthy attitude towards food (by which I don't mean eating healthy all the time, rather not obsessing about food, knowing when to stop and eating just enough most of the time... etc.) is... kinda important, imho.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Why is food so important to you that you rather take something that might have bad effect on your cognition than simply be more... careful and cautious?

Imho, it sounds bit like disordered eating. Sure, everybody has their foods they have hard time stopping eating... but to be so defensive about it "i can't stop unless something stops me" is bit... out there... me thinks there might be something... psychological behind it.

I have an ideal diet which makes for a perfect digestion and a very strong immune system. All my food choices are virtuous, I just need to eat less. I do not believe, philosophically, that you should ever be careful about food. The desire should regulate everything without the need for "care". Care and control are extraneously imposed things that ideally should have no place in eating whatsoever. What I do by limiting carbs is already excessive control - adding to that being careful about what I truly like to eat is unacceptable.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Why is food so important to you that you rather take something that might have bad effect on your cognition than simply be more... careful and cautious?

Imho, it sounds bit like disordered eating. Sure, everybody has their foods they have hard time stopping eating... but to be so defensive about it "i can't stop unless something stops me" is bit... out there... me thinks there might be something... psychological behind it. Healthy attitude towards food (by which I don't mean eating healthy all the time, rather not obsessing about food, knowing when to stop and eating just enough most of the time... etc.) is... kinda important, imho.

So here is a problem for you. Apply your theory if you can.

There are Swedish rye crackers and Finnish rye crackers. Both are foods I grew up with. The ingredients in both are the same: rye and water. Both are healthful. Both are crispy. But Finnish crackers are thin and more sour than Swedish crackers that are rather thick.

I do not mind eating Swedish crackers, but I never have more than one. They are so-so.

Finnish crackers I absolutely love and often cannot stop myself from eating more.

Their being sour and their paper-thin texture make all the difference in the world.

So now go ahead and come up with a theory that explains how "psychological" factors are at play here, and name the "eating disorder" that results in my preferring Finnish crackers.

Or, fruit. I can eat Gravenstein apples forever, without stopping. It is a local California variety of apples that reminds me of apples I grew up with. They are sour and I like the sour taste (I like kefir and Finnish crackers and eating whole lemons for the same reason - I like everything that is sour). I find the standard American apples completely inedible, so I eat all the Gravenstein apples I can put my hands on during their short season and then no apples at all. There are a couple more varieties I can eat but they are also rare and have a short season, so for the majority of the year I eat no apples at all - I am that particular when it comes to apples. What "disordered eating" is that?

I sometimes cannot stop when I drink cold milk. It is rare, but happens every once in a while - I would have several glasses in a row. Lots of calcium, protein, liquid, Riboflavin, Vitamin D (American milk is fortified with it) and other good stuff, but much too much. What disorder is that? Doesn't happen with kefir which I love but always stop after one glass - happens only with milk. What is the disorder that selectively affects consumption of one type of liquid dairy but not another?

There are certain things that I eat without liking them too much, just because I know that they are good for me (papaya, salmon nigiri, and almonds are examples), but mostly I eat and drink what I like.

My standing at work is becoming second nature little by little, but there are still moments when I'd rather be lazy and sit down. So then I usually apply willpower. I think it is enough as far as the application of willpower is concerned: standing for many hours a day, 5 days a week is a lot.

I started commuting by bike which is healthy, but I also like it better: I prefer active pedaling to passive standing and waiting in public transit. The winning solutions is when you like doing something that is good for you, rather than applying willpower. Hedonism wins in the end.

[venusss]

disordered eating is not the same as eating disorder.

I eat freaking lard on bread. pork with dumplings and drink beer to it. I put bacon in my foods. Potato pancakes. Czech cousine is BAD But I try to eat healthier foods in meantime, between all the monstrosities... and I do force myself to stop. It becomes habit, nourish food rather then nomming on it. And I learned to love hummus (it is a mood food too, so WIN!).
And I try to limit the other bad things. I don't eat too much sweet things. Used to love it, but after I went without... I don't like the taste of sugar anymore.


I think that "I don't wanna give up my food, eventhough I obviously eat too much" is not a healthy thinking.

I know about it myself, since I am emotional eater and bored eater... but I am not gonna go around pretend how eating chips when bored and eating lot of roasted duck when in stress is oh-so-healthy for me.

[hamster-bamster]

I think it should be regulated entirely upstream, where desire occurs, rather than downstream, where you try to make willpower outsmart desire, creating conflict. I have no conflict: I do not eat bacon, lard, sweets, wheat bread... because I do not like them. Lard and bacon I positively despise; sweets and wheat bread I am indifferent to. Hummus I like; it is high in protein which is probably what makes it a mood food for you.

Did not get what disordered eating is if it is not an eating disorder. What is the definition?

[venusss]

I guess I differ here.

I rather control my desires. But if better living through chemistry works for you, then is all swell.

[Confusedinomicon]

You had to have used willpower to have a diet like yours. You have to have willpower and a desire to exercise as much as you do. Medication isn't helping you with your desire to get on a bike and ride it as opposed to take public transit. I think with age you are experiencing a slower metabolism. I think if I ate like you, even without the regulatory part, I would lose weight. Everyone knows that weight gain on medication is very hard to lose. At least calorie count when youre put on topomax to make sure your not starving yourself.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Confusedinomicon

You had to have used willpower to have a diet like yours. You have to have willpower and a desire to exercise as much as you do. Medication isn't helping you with your desire to get on a bike and ride it as opposed to take public transit. I think with age you are experiencing a slower metabolism. I think if I ate like you, even without the regulatory part, I would lose weight. Everyone knows that weight gain on medication is very hard to lose. At least calorie count when youre put on topomax to make sure your not starving yourself.

Very very little will power. I ate some papaya in the morning (it is good for you right) and threw away the rest because I SO did not like it. So that was a little will power. But that is the extent of it.

I do not eat melon because I SO do not like it. But I love watermelon, which happens to be good for you. I eat watermelon and never touch a piece of melon or cantaloupe even though they are good for you. I did not drink green tea knowing full well that it is good for me and especially for my metabolism. I only started drinking it when I found a palatable brand. I still prefer black tea (which is what I grew up with, and that is very important), but sure I can have a couple cups of green a day. Until it tasted OK, I could not drink it. I positively hate quinoa and never eat it even though I know that is contains a powerhouse of nutrients and is a complete protein. But I find it utterly disgusting. Herbal teas such as valerian I find equally disgusting so herbal teas are out of the question (Valerian root did not help, so I am not losing anything by not drinking it). I do not like the taste of cannabis even though I know that cannabis is very good for me... so I take tasteless THC capsules and they work just fine. How things taste is very important to me, which is why I can only eat Gravenstein, Roma, and McIntosh apples - all rare varieties - and not the rest. This is not about willpower, but the idiosyncratic peculiarities of taste. Why Finnish crackers but not Swedish crackers? I do not know why, it is just so. Why watermelon but not melon? Likewise, it is just so.

So no, I am not using willpower, I just happen to be lucky: I like tea and dislike Coke, I like fermented dairy and dislike lard, I like leafy greens and fish and dislike salami and salty foods in general. I use very little sea salt in cooking and that is all - but I like it this way, I am not trying to limit my salt intake. My mother could not eat salt because of malfunctioning kidneys and she did not use salt at all, and I grew up with bland food, so I do not need salt as an adult. That is just my luck, without any willpower. My favorite fruit besides Gravenstein apples happens to be a mega-beneficial pomegranate, probably because my parents gave me a lot of pomegranates when I was growing up. It is not an acquired taste, I do not eat it for its antioxidants - I eat it because I love it. Love the texture, taste, color, smell... everything about it. If preparing a pomegranate weren't so laborious, I'd be eating one daily. Apples beat pomegranates as far as convenience goes.

I would never eat a standard American apple even though I realize that it, too, contains fiber. But virtues are not enough - if it is inedible to me, I do not eat no matter how beneficial it is. No willpower - I go by my taste (which is related to desire).

Biking is fun. Standing in public transit is boring. I do not like boredom. So I choose what is more fun. It also happens to be good exercise. But if it weren't fun, I doubt that I would have had daily self-discipline to commute by bike. Just think about it - on a bike, you are in control. On public transit, you are a mere passenger - someone else is doing the driving. What would you choose? Let us say, if biking weren't a good exercise but just provided the sense of control, the fun, the necessity to be alert, the challenge to cognitive functions (memorizing the route is a cognitive task), the sensation of wind blowing in your face - you would still choose it, wouldn't?

The reason that there is so much talk of walking and less of running is not just because running can cause injuries. People stay with walking programs better. The discontinuation rate is lower. The reason? They are just doing what they more or less like to do. Running requires more willpower. People in general are not good with consistently applying willpower over time. People differ: some can use more willpower, others less. But in general, people fail at using willpower a lot - that is why there are addictions when people cannot stop themselves. I can stop myself, but not because I am using willpower but because I do not WANT any more. I drink my one glass of wine and it is plenty for me - I call it a day. No willpower whatsoever. I am just very lucky in that way.

I have been standing at my desk all day long today except for biking and talking to the new T and, I must say, it is becoming second nature. But it is a case of applying willpower for a short period of time hoping that I will stop using willpower when standing becomes second nature. If I always had to use the same willpower that I used during my first week of standing, I doubt that I'd be able to pull off standing! Thanks god that it is becoming second nature to me! In public transit, it already became second nature: I am puzzled when I see people sitting. It is weird to me. I start picturing their poor constricted vertebrae and awkward blood circulation. I do not want to be in their shoes. So... no more need to will my way to standing!

Short term application of willpower is something I can live with.

I have had a limited number of lovers and am free of STDs not because I willed my way out of potential casual encounters but just because I was not particularly interested. It is not that I badly wanted to sleep around and prohibited myself from indulging those desires. I just did not have the desires. There are a couple of cases where I regret not having an encounter with a man, but just a couple - really, not many. And in those cases that I do regret, what stopped me was an inflated sense of loyalty to another man, or an inflated sense of duty to my beloved's wife, which, in essence, is willpower and I REGRET applying that willpower. In hindsight, I should have gone with my desire and not the willpower. I will never use willpower again. In the future, if I want to sleep with a man who is married, it will be entirely his choice as to what to do. I would not apply willpower because of feelings of duty to someone's wife just because I know her well etc. It will be his decision and I will be upfront about my desires BECAUSE I WILL VALUE THEM.

In terms of chemicals, Venus, yes, indeed, we differ drastically. I am so happy that I do not want to spend and I reap the benefits of not spending because I now have credit in order to pay my lawyer. Sure, you can put limits on the credit cards and do other tricks, but who needs that? So Lithium fixes some chemistry in my brain removing the desire to spend - great job Lithium! Why would I want to choose a long life of putting limits on credit cards? The desire to spend is not normal, in my view, so it should be treated. If you cannot treat it safely, then you put limits on credit cards and work your way around bad impulses because that is your only option. Since I can treat it safely, that is what I choose to do. This choice gives me the freedom to do other things that are more interesting to me, because I am not preoccupied with how to prevent damage from my next shopping spree.

So what I need from Topamax is limiting (not removing, but limiting) the appetite the same way Lithium removes the desire to spend, without bad side effects. Plus, boost the metabolism. Plus, prevent migraines (it is very effective at that). Minus, cognitive side effects (but that is simply a matter of luck and I won't know until I try). Right now, I am still in the office and I will only eat a yogurt at home, so whatever magic has been happening is still at work and this way I will definitely not suffer cognitive side effects. In fact, today I memorized two full pages of riding directions after one one hour long ride - that is pretty good memory.

Calorie tracking I won't do - I did a couple of years of calorie tracking and got very tired of it. I try to be more hedonistic and experiential and less cognitive about food and tracking is very very cognitive. But since I tracked for so long, I pretty much memorized the caloric content of common foods, so in essence I can track in my head without software.

[Trippin2.0]

Its called gluttony. Its easy to over indulge when its your favourite. You still have the power to say 'no thanks', except you completely ignore this. Its easier to say 'I cant' when infact 'cant' suggests impossibilty,its impossible to fly, not to say 'no thanks' Btw, I do not eat health foods, the taste of health foods is DISGUSTING. I dont believe in taking out ingredients of food, like sugarless, low fat, WTF I dont want to eat flavourless cardboard. And yes,I over indulge,but I KNOW when I'm greedy

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

Its called gluttony. Its easy to over indulge when its your favourite. You still have the power to say 'no thanks', except you completely ignore this. Its easier to say 'I cant' when infact 'cant' suggests impossibilty,its impossible to fly, not to say 'no thanks' Btw, I do not eat health foods, the taste of health foods is DISGUSTING. I dont believe in taking out ingredients of food, like sugarless, low fat, WTF I dont want to eat flavourless cardboard. And yes,I over indulge,but I KNOW when I'm greedy

I loooove non-fat yogurt and kefir. And I know why: the less fat it contains, the more sour it tastes, and I have always loved the sour taste (I can eat a lemon or a whole bag of fresh cranberries in one go). I do not find full-cream (that is how you say, right?) kefir tasty because the fat masks the sourness. So I buy fat-free, but purely, purely because of taste.

I also prefer the taste of 2% milk to full-cream. I have tried them all and 2% wins. Why - I do not know, but I go by the taste.

I do not think the word "gluttony" applies, because I am having a hard time applying gluttony to apples or paper-thin crackers. To me gluttony goes with, I do not know, ... lots of ice-cream.

I also do not think that it is "gluttony" because "overeating" is SO food- specific. Gravenstein apples, yes. Wonderful dark chocolate, no. Milk, very occasionally. Kefir (=fermented milk), never. Why? No reason. People who overeat in the general sense of this term usually consume everything in sight, rather than a very particular rare variety of apples and only that variety and only during that one month in the fall when said apples are in season.

And yes I recognize that I can say NO but I just want to do what I want. Because life is already too hard, my job is boring and below the level of my skill but I have to perform it - that is enough of doing things that I do not want to do.

Why do you use the terms "gluttony" and "greed" applying them to yourself? You are UNDERweight, you should be COMPLETELY free from the compulsion to apply morality terminology to food. You are already doing well refusing foods with some ingredients taken away (I realize that my preference for sour yogurt is rare and in general full-cream is better); do even better by dropping anything that smells of morality (the word "greed" does!) from your food discourse.

[hamster-bamster]

Eating fat-free greek yogurt for dinner just because Geodon is not absorbed without food. Otherwise, can go to sleep without food. Amazing. And that is just about dinner - lunches, business as usual.

More on bike commuting. There is a saying "Do not work hard, work smart". I try to go by it. Bike commuting is not working hard (unlike going to the gym), it is working smart. I always enjoy exercise with a purpose (to get from point A to point B because you need to) better than artificial goal parameters of gym equipment. Commuting by bike is fun and serves a purpose: gets me to and from work. And, there is a BUILT-IN (that is the smart part) exercise component. A win-win.

Likewise, with swimming. I like everything about swimming except those first few minutes getting used to the temperature of the water. That part, I passionately hate. The pool that is within a walking distance from me is like that, with pretty cold water. I could have relied on willpower, persevering through those few minutes of adjustment, but instead I have chosen a smart solution that does not involve willpower: I bought a bike. On the bike, I will be going to a special warm water (t=27C) pool in an adjacent city. I will get some built-in exercise of biking on the way and I will thoroughly, thoroughly enjoy submerging myself in the warm water. And there will be exercise - swimming. But no willpower - just pure hedonism. Two workouts - biking and swimming - and no willpower.

Smart solutions scale. Use of willpower doesn't.

[Trippin2.0]

I use the words greedy and gluttony bcoz its appropriate. Just bcoz I'm underweight does not automatically imply that I starve myself. I eat like a pig, I eat an entire pot of pasta made for a family of 4, bcoz I can. I do not need a pot of pasta, I WANT it, its my favourite. And yes, that is greed. Its not an insult, its a fact. Just bcoz I'm not greedy for curry, does not mean I am never greedy. Gluttony isnt ice-cream specific,I call a spade a spade. I am greedy at times, and so are you

[BlueInanna]

I don't think it's gluttony here, nor greed. Not when someone with a history of MI, ED, etc., has tried a lot of things to change her ways. She needs some extra help. Sometimes I have little control seriously when I start eating for comfort. I do try to change it, I do try to change my depression... but not so easy as "just pull yourself up by your bootstraps", not so easy for willpower when something's ingrained.

Hopefully, this medicine could help start a new routine for you of eating less, and combined with new T, biking, yoga, maybe you won't even need this med for a long time.
I hope it will work well for you. I think you will see a really positive change in the coming months. And maybe inspire me to do more with exercise and food impulse control.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

I use the words greedy and gluttony bcoz its appropriate. Just bcoz I'm underweight does not automatically imply that I starve myself. I eat like a pig, I eat an entire pot of pasta made for a family of 4, bcoz I can. I do not need a pot of pasta, I WANT it, its my favourite. And yes, that is greed. Its not an insult, its a fact. Just bcoz I'm not greedy for curry, does not mean I am never greedy. Gluttony isnt ice-cream specific,I call a spade a spade. I am greedy at times, and so are you

it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO refreshing to see somebody who is honest about their vices. It's not even negative self-talk, it's what it is.

I too can pig out horribly. I'll eat bag of roasted salt nuts till my mouth hurts. Not, it's not healthy attitude to food and no, it's something that I would take pills for either.

In terms of chemicals, Venus, yes, indeed, we differ drastically. I am so happy that I do not want to spend and I reap the benefits of not spending because I now have credit in order to pay my lawyer. Sure, you can put limits on the credit cards and do other tricks, but who needs that? So Lithium fixes some chemistry in my brain removing the desire to spend - great job Lithium! Why would I want to choose a long life of putting limits on credit cards? The desire to spend is not normal, in my view, so it should be treated. If you cannot treat it safely, then you put limits on credit cards and work your way around bad impulses because that is your only option. Since I can treat it safely, that is what I choose to do. This choice gives me the freedom to do other things that are more interesting to me, because I am not preoccupied with how to prevent damage from my next shopping spree.

I guess I like my kidney's too much and I prefer to have long term strategy. YOu said you skip one pill and splurge... and yet you don't bother to work some roadblocks? What if, God-forbid, you had to go off lithium?

WHo needs limits on credit cards? Many do, according to how world's economy looks like.

We all limit ourselves everyday. I do have desires to fly to Tel Aviv and sleep around with IDF girls, or buy a dress by Matragi and such... so I indulgue myself in fantasies for a bit and then go on, thinking of consequences. Who is to decide which DESIRE is not healthy? Should I take "anti-buy Matragi dress pill" and "anti-want to have sex with Aurela Gace in a bunker pill" and "anti-lust after Michelle Obama pill"? Desires are fine, as long as you know how to treat them.


ANd hamster, you do show some willpower. You are driven. Maybe instead of never-ending odes to pills, you should really give yourself some damn credit and rationalizing. You don't NEED to rationalize hedonism, in fact rationalizing hedonism is bit iffy in my eyes. And let go of zero-sum games. Let go of need to be oh-so-right. You can have quirks. But that is your choice.

[Trippin2.0]

Hammy if you honestly do not have it in you to say no thanks, then I agree, your eating is disordered. And by that I simply mean 'abnormal' or problematic. If you decide that lithium is better than credit card limits,then that is you choice, and you have every right to choose your choice. However,I can see why Venus, or anyone else may be baffled as to how you came to that decision, as meds are certainly not healthier than a bank agreement, no matter how side-effect free you believe yourself to be.

[Trippin2.0]

Ps. I used 'believe yourself to be' as there are no guarantees that the lithium will not cause any longterm problems to your organs. I pray that it doesnt, but just wanted to clarify my statement.

[Eliza Jane]

I agree that morality words should not be applied to food and eating. This perpetuates the unhealthy attitudes that lead to restricting, purging, overeating, and all sorts of eating disorders and related issues.

Hamster is an adult and can make choices about her own health. It is not our place to try to shame her about her eating decisions.

Best,
EJ

[Trippin2.0]

EJ Please oh FKN PLEASE! Quote me shaming Hamster! Or myself for that matter! Oh and while you're at it, please provide the dictionary that states greed and gluttony are 'moral' words. Nobody was talking about anybody's morality, and YTF would I shame someone if I'm shameful too! I'm going to say this ONCE: DONT PUT WORDS INTO MY DAMN MOUTH. I have NO trouble expressing myself, and would have used the word 'shameful' if it was what I meant. And YES, I'm Pissed off bcoz I HATE when ppl twist my words!