Today, my new pdoc said "You choose to get distressed; nobody can make you depressed except yourself." I find this very insulting, and very untrue. I said, to him, "Of course I don't believe this. What about people who are involved in a genocide? What about the seniors and disabled people who are bullied and mobbed [group bullies] so unmercifully senior and disabled public housing all over the United States, that just this month (August 2016) two states passed Stop Bullying in Public Housing laws?" The states are Massachusetts and Missouri. The pdoc said "Well, in almost all situations, you choose to ... [react the way I do.] I told him his remark sounds too New Age for me. He said, No, it's not New Age at all. It's very old. He mentioned the erroneous thinking modes. Yeah, Dr. David Burns' Cognitive Behavioral Therapy works POST something but it does NOT work to stop me from reacting. I worked the program a lot. He also suggested Mindfulness training, and I said absolutely not. Meditation is not my thing, the meditation forms I do are playing music and other creative activities. And that I have tried Mindfulness training by two different therapists, about 10 years apart for me, each of whom was trained by Dr. Marcia Linehan, and they were the coldest hardnoses I'd ever seen, and that I don't like cold people. These so-called therapists were scary, they were so hard nosed.

What are your impressions of these comments by my new pdoc, and his statement that my previous pdoc were (without using this word) essentiallly pampering me? He did not use the word "pampering' but did say that the results of the previous docs' handling of my case have been unsatisfactory for 10 years, and he's going to be doing something else in my case.

I don't like to be bossed around. He knows I am uncomfortable with what he is doing.

Subscribing to this thread

[fairydustgirl]

I think he's full of BS and I would change dr's asap. I agree though, it's not new, it's the same old 'pull yourself by your bootstraps' BS thought process from people who DO NOT GET what bipolar depression is.
This is the whole thing behind my X having no patience and even getting angry when I was suffering depressive episodes, sitting in my chair and crying slow silent tears over God knows what...why the HECK would I choose that???? And he did believe it was me making a choice, choosing not to feel better. Thank goodness none of my pdocs has acted like yours did and if they did I would stand up and walk out of the room.

good luck!

[Yoda]

Wow. He may have graduated med school but I don't think he learned much.

I am interested to know what he thinks appropriate treatment would be; though I agree with fairydustgirl and would fire his worthless *** and find a competent pdoc. Best of luck.

Hey fairydustgirl and Yoda -- POW WHAM BAM!!!!!!! Thanks for your powerful statements! I was thinking more about what this man said to me today. Regarding the previous pdocs pampering me, what this means is.....I've been living a fiction for nearly 20 years! What he challenges the previous docs with is, says to me, "you've been up and down for the 10 years you've been coming to this clinic, and every time [something about me becoming dissatisfied with a med] and side effects, they changed your meds." Like this is bad of the pdocs and me to do that! Side effects that caused the pdocs to pamper me -- how about developing osteoporosis from Tegretol? How about diarrhea for 6 straight weeks, wearing adult diapers? How about being off balance and falling down flat on my back on the sidewalk, hitting my head? Plus, the doc's tossing off "You've been up and down for ten years." Not quite true. I have mood charts that show how stable I was for long periods of time. 6 years stability on Tegretol. 3-4 years on Lamictal. I got so upset thinking this guy has said basically that the other docs are fools, being fooled by me, and that my life has been nothing but a sham, I called the crisis line (just to talk, not suicidal or anything like that). I told the counselor there that I'm a musician and the litium has made it so I can't play my instrument. She said, "These are serious side effects! Your music is your therapy! And lithium is interfering with your therapy!" Whew -- was she ever a breath of fresh air! And so are you, fairydustgirl and Yoda. Already today I called the mental health dept and found out it's easy to change clinics. So I know how, and will do that on Monday!!!!! Hopefully I can get a new appointment with someone very soon so I can get off Li.

[Yoda]

Good for you, flowerbells, for being proactive in your care.

Thank you, Yoda. I know that the doctor-patient relationship since maybe the 1970s is a partnership. It used to be that the doctor "played God" and dictated what the patient was to do, i.e. must do. And the patient abdicated all responsibility for their health, figuring that their health was the doctor's responsibility. That was how it was when I was young. All that has changed, but maybe this guy who started working at the clinic only about 2 months ago, hasn't heard about this the "new paradigm." And No, he's not 60 y/o! He's very young.

[Spaceyspace]

Wow. I hope he doesn't have clients with ptsd.

Originally Posted by flowerbells

Today, my new pdoc said "You choose to get distressed; nobody can make you depressed except yourself." I find this very insulting, and very untrue. I said, to him, "Of course I don't believe this. What about people who are involved in a genocide? What about the seniors and disabled people who are bullied and mobbed [group bullies] so unmercifully senior and disabled public housing all over the United States, that just this month (August 2016) two states passed Stop Bullying in Public Housing laws?" The states are Massachusetts and Missouri. The pdoc said "Well, in almost all situations, you choose to ... [react the way I do.] I told him his remark sounds too New Age for me. He said, No, it's not New Age at all. It's very old. He mentioned the erroneous thinking modes. Yeah, Dr. David Burns' Cognitive Behavioral Therapy works POST something but it does NOT work to stop me from reacting. I worked the program a lot. He also suggested Mindfulness training, and I said absolutely not. Meditation is not my thing, the meditation forms I do are playing music and other creative activities. And that I have tried Mindfulness training by two different therapists, about 10 years apart for me, each of whom was trained by Dr. Marcia Linehan, and they were the coldest hardnoses I'd ever seen, and that I don't like cold people. These so-called therapists were scary, they were so hard nosed.

What are your impressions of these comments by my new pdoc, and his statement that my previous pdoc were (without using this word) essentiallly pampering me? He did not use the word "pampering' but did say that the results of the previous docs' handling of my case have been unsatisfactory for 10 years, and he's going to be doing something else in my case.

I don't like to be bossed around. He knows I am uncomfortable with what he is doing.

do you want to know what i think about it

i think, it's a load of ****ing crap.
no wonder mental illness has so much stigma attached to it.. jesus. if people are blaming depression on yourself, what do you expect?

okay, so, their was 1 time this year where i was depressed because of something that happened (the EU vote). i voted to stay in the EU, our whole area voted to stay in the EU

what's not my fault is the next day on the news they announce that not only did we vote to leave the EU, but our prime minister has resigned. of course i'm going to be depressed

but everything else.. it just happens, and i don't think 1 comment about the EU is going to really change my perspective on it

point is, people say these things because they really don't care

my family were big on this, not it's your fault you're depressed, but it's your fault your life is ****ed up and it's your fault you have mental illness.

and then you ****ing wonder why so many people just turn their backs and put it down to a bad day or you just being upset, and not actually asociate with a mental illness

jesus

[Unrigged64072835]

I'm sorry this happened to you. I used to know a pdoc that treated me like that and I refuse to work with him.

[JustJace2u]

Why would someone want to be depressed and constantly feeling worthless??? I think your pdoc is a bit crazy. Sorry.

Your pdoc clearly didn't take the time to read your file thoroughly . I have little respect for clinicians who neglect this very important step with a new patient.

Also if he believes choice theory is applicable to bipolar depression, I'm not why he became a pdoc in the first place.

I'm sorry you were subjected to such an insensitive and thoughtless person. We all deserve better than this.

shattered sanity, spacey space, and Fharraige,

Thanks for your comments and observations. shattered sanity, your comments are especially important. Wish I knew more about the EU and Brexit. (Don't know how you feel about the term "Brexit.") I just carefully read and studied a 3-page article in the Epoch Times about Brexit and trade agreements. In brief, the article says that the new populist movement (on both the left and the right) are potentially threatening globalization and the world economy. I'm an activist, and suppose I fit that description of "new populist" on the left. I'm depressed about a lot of political stuff here in the USA -- nationally and locally. I've dropped out of it all, except my new #1 focus which is renters rights. You wrote: "..people say these things because they really don't care .. it's your fault your life is ****ed up and it's your fault you have mental illness. ...
and then you ****ing wonder why so many people just turn their backs and put it down to a bad day or you just being upset, and not actually associate with a mental illness" I think these realities for people who blame us for our situations and illness, as you say, are why people like us have almost no clout, and no large movement for our benefit. Here in the USA, for example, people and families of people who have developmental disabilities have tremendous political clout and a massive family organization. The one organization we have mostly represents families, and historically has taken the position that how we were treated in our family of origin has nothing to do with our illness. They ignore the fact that grotesque numbers of us were abused at home! There are also three fairly large peer led organizations, leaders and members representing themselves as "survivors" who refuse to take medication, Some of these people have jobs as leaders in the mental health consumer rights movement here, and demand "accommodations" that allow them to "be themselves" such as management by rage attacks.

Originally Posted by JustJace2u

Why would someone want to be depressed and constantly feeling worthless??? I think your pdoc is a bit crazy. Sorry.

Hi! Thanks for your support. And yes, your question "why would someone want to be [miserable]" is one I've asked before when Bright Siders talk like this. Well, I don't know if he's crazy nor not, but he certainly is not sensitive, not knowledgeable, not professional. There's a great book by Barbara Ehrenreich called Bright Sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America.

I have read the book, and mostly agree with. Ehrenreich. She got this uber-positive thinking c***p laid on her when she had breast cancer: Summary of the book: "Americans are a positive people -- cheerful, optimistic, and upbeat. This is our reputation as well as our self-image. In this utterly original take on the American frame of mind, Barbara Ehrenreich traces the strange career of our sunny outlook from its origins as a marginal nineteenth-century healing technique to its enshrinement as a dominant, almost mandatory, cultural attitude, and exposes the downside of irrational optimism."

Thank you, Bea Tiscuit, Yeah, you are right. Trouble is that now I'm temporarily stuck with lithium,which I didn't want in the first place. For 6 weeks I have had no interest in playing my music and singing. I hope I can get in very, very soon to see another pdoc and figure out how to get my music back. It's Saturday now, but on Monday I'm calling first thing to change clinics.

[TishaBuv]

Why spend money on a p doc for that kind of glib crap? I can just talk to my mother if I want to hear that! Hasn't he heard depression is a physical illness?

Dear TishaBuv, Good observation. Drollery about your mother. So sorry to hear she's so unsupportive. The money being spent on him is from the taxpayers -- Medicare. There is a very limited number of pdocs who accept Medicare patients This is a public health clnic. All the providers I have had except this one, have been 100% great. They are psychiatric nurse practitioners, supervised by a pdoc MD. I've never met the MD. The only Medicare listed pdoc MD in private practice I ever went to was extremely rude. What a horrible man THAT one was. Overall, though, my experience in THIS city where I have lived for over 20 years,has been excellent. NO OTHER PLACE I lived had EVER given me any help, nor had any person or clinic I could find that knew what to do for me, and sometimes just made me worse. I was in my 50s when I moved here and got my dx. I have had depression since I was 3-4 years old.

[Onward2wards]

Originally Posted by Spaceyspace

Wow. I hope he doesn't have clients with ptsd.

With a bedside manner that awesome *eyeroll* he may just end up with some that "mysteriously acquire it"!

Originally Posted by flowerbells

.What he challenges the previous docs with is, says to me, "you've been up and down for the 10 years you've been coming to this clinic..."

Already today I called the mental health dept and found out it's easy to change clinics. So I know how, and will do that on Monday!!!!!

On the first part, it makes one wonder if he grasps what BP even is! Up and down -- why would that be the case for someone with BP? (!!!) "Over 10 years". Imagine that! Shouldn't you be cured already? WTH

On the second... Get set up with the new clinic -- because that is the most important thing right now -- but afterwards, it might be a good idea to let his clinic know why. Though it is upsetting that he dismisses your previous providers, that is secondary to the attitude that produces it. Namely, "blaming the victim" which, unless things have changed radically, is anathema to the helping professions. (Among my numerous major changes at university was a brief pitstop at social work. They emphasize it in a big way right off the bat) It's foundational! In the "blaming the victim" model, we get such lovelies as

Possible trigger:

a rape victim " asking for it", domestic violence perpetrators not being held solely responsible for their actions etc.

How can you help someone eliminate the thing that is out of their control? You can only help them learn to deal with the effects of their particular source of causation, ideally so they can be the best they can be despite it.

And for BP that means learning triggers, learning and avoiding things that are counter-productive, ways to deal with symptoms in a healthy way (etc.), and (for the majority of us) meds and adjustments/changes thereto to keep the moving target of our symptoms on an as even of a keel as possible. And to keep side effects to a minimum. THAT should be what providers help/partner with us to accomplish. It is our responsibility to try our best, alter problematic behaviors etc, but the root cause of what we are working against is not within our control.

But blame? We can get that kind of "help" just about anywhere. For free!

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

With a bedside manner that awesome *eyeroll* he may just end up with some that "mysteriously acquire it"!

He's very subtle -- he's nice looking, young, friendly....and then says stuff like he thinks I can learn how to not choose my reactivity. I don't think he's malevolent. I think he totally believes that what he wants will help me stop cycling. But I've told him already that I've only been this high degree of irritability and reactive since my fall and getting off lamictal. For 20 years I have not been like this! Ever since I started therapy/meds 20 years ago. He even mentioned something like, do I think meds help me more than not being on meds at all?!!!???

Dear Innerzone, thank you for your highly intelligent, and RIGHT ON comments. I like the way you are able to succinctly explain what therapy is/should be, and what we bipolar bears can expect from it, for ourselves and our futures. It's hard for me to know what to do, though, regarding contacting his clinic about my dissatisfaction. I have already drafted a letter to the pdoc himself. I'm not wanting to be harsh. I was an independent music teacher for a long time, and got zillions of complimentary letters from the adult students and children's parents, and sweet drawings about playing music, from the kids. But I remember two scathing letters I got from mothers. One mother was upset because I raised my rates, and really guilt tripped me about it, yanked her son from my clientele despite how happy she/d been about my teaching methods and his fine playing. Another mother wrote a scathing letter because I wore a button that said simply "No on 12". (It was a different number, but the issue was an early initiative measure in the 1970s discriminating against gays and lesbians. That was the only time I ever wore a political button, but I foresaw the future of potential Nazism if the issue were to pass. That issue did pass in that community, but failed statewide.) Anyway, that woman literally screamed at me! She was a religious home-schooler. So I know how it stings and hurts to receive a scathing letter from someone a provider sincerely believes he's doing his best to help. Me writing to his clinic might cause him to lose his job. Any suggestions?

Wow. Thank you for the very kind words, flowebells!

I'm sorry you got those scathing letters. Ouch. The thing that hurt most about them was that they were scathing, no? Seems like in both those incidences their concerns could have been conveyed in a more civilized way. And that's key.

(Disclaimer, can skip: I am far from having it together on this. It's the ideal I often fall very short of! When I get really PO'd about something, look out, because, well, hello rabid wolverine mode, lol! It doesn't tend to produce a positive effect. Fortunately, it's usually not being up in anyone's face. It's usually a loud, growling vent away from, that may or may involve objects in flight or violence against inanimate objects. But if I can give it some time and calm down, it's usually possible to figure out what it was that bothered me about it. Once those thoughts are in order, they can be presented in a way that has a much better chance of doing good. Or I decide it's not worth it.)

As long as you present what you have to say in a logical way that is firm but considerate, you have a good chance of producing positive results.

It can be helpful to indicate you give them the benefit of the doubt without excusing them, being inappropriately apologetic, or even stating it directly. Perhaps as in conflict, "I" statements would be useful. Like, "I feel it would be more helpful if..." as opposed to ,"you should...". I tend to be inclined to say things like, "I don't know if you realize that xyz can come off as abc...". That would be an example of implied benefit of the doubt --acknowledging that it may not be their intention without excusing it. (If anyone could chime in with more professionally-based tips, better ways to say this or better examples, please do!)

I don't think it's worth worrying about him getting fired. It wasn't gross misconduct. It may be inexperience, a call for additional training in appropriate therapeutic attitude or technique. If he truly is just a judgemental butthead (fundamentally in disagreement with the tenets of therapy), they need to know. But more likely it is a case of needing additional training. (So the word "butthead" should be avoided, lol. ) Just lay out your experience and concerns, and move on to better things.

As tempting as it is to lash out, it's probably most constructive to realize that perceptions are very much in play here and procede accordingly.

Good luck!

Innerzone! You are hilariously hilarious!!!! It's amazing that you (as well as other bipolar "wolverines" ) can write to funny about things we do that are so painful. I appreciate your thoughts and words I can draw from in my letters. I feel like this guy is being crazymaking. He'll say one thing, then when I repeat like, "That sounds too New Age for me," he says it isn't New Age. But it is. It's "brightsiding." It's extremist positive thinking.

Awwww, shucks... (haha, I don't actually talk like that.)

Laugh or cry, yeah? Laughing is more fun. Right? There's plenty of crying though, don't you worry. Usually it's passage of time, isn't it? Because at the time... not so much funny. There are some things that won't ever be funny. But ye gawds, the sheer volume of material to work from(!) So many ridiculous moments...

On the cookie-laden dark side, humor is my main defense mechanism. So there's that.

I like your term "bipolar bears".

Über-optimists. I just want to slap 'em! ("Back to reality with you!") You will love this!!

[NoIdeaWhatToDo]

That doc sounds like an ***. I will say, if you're interested, that I have been tremendously helped by mindfulness work with my T a few years back. She was very warm and nurturing and helped me understand BP and come to terms with how to manage my life knowing that there would be ups and downs and ups and downs and...on and on.

While she suggested meditation, I never really did that part. I was well served, though, by the idea of being present with what was going on in that moment with me. It helped me with managing my symptoms, my stress levels, my awareness of my moods. It helped me to interrupt anxiety loops about potential disasters/tragedies (which I was really prone to follow down the rabbit hole). It helped me to identify when to take breaks from the various stressors and stimuli that were in my daily environment so that I could cope with the rest of my day. And it helped me to be OK with taking care of myself and doing what I needed in the moment to be OK, letting go of the things I would otherwise try to manage to the detriment of my mood and stability.

So I guess, if you're at all interested in a different approach to something that you've tried in the past (and I'm really sorry the Ts you worked on this with were so cold and unyielding!), I wouldn't necessarily write off all aspects of the mindfulness. I find relief even in things like music and art. If I'm stressed, I might turn on a piece of music that fills me up, and just sit and focus on it and how it affects me at that moment. My T would support and encourage things like that. I also knit & crochet - something about how methodical it is and the appealing colors and textures of the yarns really works for me. My T would encourage me to take time to do that, but really focus on it at every level. I wouldn't say it was meditative, but it was mindful. I found it helpful.

I hope you find something that is as helpful for you. And I DEFINITELY hope you find someone who is an effective pdoc who knows what he/she is talking about to assist you. Sadly, this guy sounds like he is going to do some real damage to people - please don't let it happen to you...you sound strong enough to seek out something better.