[Fuzzybear]

How much do you agree with this statement?

[happysobercrafter]

Please, would you elaborate on it?

[Fuzzybear]

I guess I was thinking of when treatment providers try to trigger anger. This has definitely happened to me. I think they were trying to provoke change. But it didn't help As I was given the wrong ''dx'' I suppose the wrong treatment wasn't a surprise

[Lilly2]

In anthropology terms, I'd say that the phrase you mentioned in the title rings true, that "when outraged, people take action." There are many instances in time and space where outraged groups fought back against those whom they believed to have harmed them. It's a survival instinct. I'm not sure on what the specific terms are, but there are other social science branches that have objectively looked at this phenomenon.

In peace studies, for example, there are two kinds of action:

1. Violent action (think Nelson Mandela)

2. Non-violent action (think Martin Luther King, Jr.)

Both leaders were outraged at what was going on, and both leaders took action. Both leaders saw what was happening to minorities, and they decided to do something about it.

When individuals are outraged, they seek action in one of two ways, too:

1. Violent action (e.g., self-defense, defensive aggression, criminal aggression, unlawful aggression, seeking physical revenge, spreading libel or slander, spreading rumors, name-calling, yelling, etc.)

2. Non-violent action (e.g., communication, complaints, verbal boundaries, legal boundaries, lawsuits, leading or joining peaceful protests, ghosting, publicizing true victimizations, advocating, finding alternative options, calling the police, making a citizen's arrest)

Outrage is such a strong word and a strong feeling. It is generally experienced after cumulative abuses, cumulative traumas, cumulative (poly)victmization, and/or cumulative wrongs have been done against a person or a group of people. Thoughts that coincide with feeling outraged may include:

1. Enough is enough!

2. I cannot stand this happening to me (or people like me) anymore!

3. When is this going to stop?

Victim-blaming and/or victim-shaming occurs when systemic/structural violence gets blamed on individuals or groups of people, which sounds like this:

1. You don't have to pay attention to those words or actions; just ignore them.

2. You are too sensitive.

3. Well, the majority of people who fit your description (looks, personalities, cultural beliefs/practices, socioeconomic status) are <fill in negative here>.

4. How can you change your thoughts to reduce your reaction to what you're hearing? (this represents an inappropriate CBT approach when the issue is not nor should not be the responsibility of the victim; it should be the responsibility of the offender, or the widespread offenses that continue to occur; this is what "continuous traumatic stress" looks like; it's not past traumas or "little t's"; discrimination, bigotry, prejudice, stigma, microaggressions, hate speech, and hate crimes are all forms of trauma that attacks certain groups of people, including people categorized by their skin color, height, weight, disability, mental illness, personality type, age, SES, etc.)

Such are considered secondary traumas and therefore adds to the outrage they feel. This is why peacemaking circles, restorative justice, compromises, new protective laws, and our First Amendment (if not others as well) are in place. We can use our First Amendment rights to freely speak about the wrongs being done to us. We can use peacemaking or restorative justice circles to bring offenders and victims together for a productive chat. We can advocate for new protective laws and/or policies, so that minorities aren't being harmed by discrimination, harassment, bullying, unethical practices, hate crimes, etc.

Thus, I agree that when outraged, people will take action. What that action is depends on the situation and all who are involved.

[Lilly2]

Originally Posted by Fuzzybear

I guess I was thinking of when treatment providers try to trigger anger. This has definitely happened to me. I think they were trying to provoke change. But it didn't help As I was given the wrong ''dx'' I suppose the wrong treatment wasn't a surprise

@Fuzzybear (((safe hugs)))

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

I, too, felt outraged at the years and money wasted on misdiagnoses and mistreatments. It hurts, and healing from that hurt is challenged when our pain gets undermined or dismissed altogether.

I hear your pain. I'm sorry what happened to you.

The actions I chose when feeling outraged from this were:
1. File complaints
2. Communicate my laments
3. Find support
4. Educate myself
5. Find alternative treatments
6. Self-care
7. Spread awareness
8. Advocate
9. Take notes
10. Do research
11. Find and list resources
12. Take time to grieve
13. Ask for help
14. Remove myself from toxic situations
15. Reaffirm the boundaries I want to have for myself and with others
16. Reassess my goals
17. Learn to adjust to the effects that all this pain has caused me by finding a new purpose
18. Healing through salutogenesis
19. Healing through posttraumatic growth
20. Healing through meaning-making and finding a workable narrative in my life - facts, past feelings, current feelings, feelings that I want to eventually have, old thoughts, new thoughts, growth charts, and more!

These are the steps that I take when I feel outraged, defeated, overwhelmed, helpless, misunderstood, stepped on, taken advantage of, hurt, harmed, abused, traumatized, etc.

I hope you are doing okay. I know you've been processing a lot of this stuff. It's okay to take a break from processing so that you can enjoy the fun stuff, too. The processing stuff can be "contained" until the next time we are ready to take it off the shelf and work on more processing. That's called "pacing and containing," which has helped me stay grounded and focused only on what I need to focus on in the moment. I can revisit the past anytime, and I can work toward my future at a pace that I feel is most comfortable and healthy for me. I can live and enjoy the present, and be in charge of my own life, no matter what others tell me. --These are the words I tell myself, and you can tell yourself good, positive words, too. You're doing so well with posting all these great threads here. I love your threads! I just hope you are doing some self-care for you, too. You deserve happiness and all the good things in life. We all do.

I'm just glad that you take time to process these things with us on PC. It reminds me of some unresolved pain that I have, too. It's important that we be safe while processing these painful things, too. Self-care really helps.

(((safe hugs)))

[happysobercrafter]

I think everyone responds to outrage differently. I think it depends on what is going on with them and whether something bothers them. I don't get upset at the same things that used to set me off.

[bpcyclist]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Edmund Burke

[Mendingmysoul]

True.I have even witnessed evil getting praised.

[MrsA]

I think it depends on the individual. Some people realize that anger indicates a need for change and they may try to do something about it. Others express outrage by unproductive raging or turning their anger on others. Its the same with societies and individuals. Sometimes people as a group will try to fix something that outrage them. Other times they will misdirect their outrage on a scapegoat or rave on twitter as a substitute to real action. Humans are probably too unpredictable for that statement to be 100% accurate.

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by Fuzzybear

I guess I was thinking of when treatment providers try to trigger anger. This has definitely happened to me. I think they were trying to provoke change. But it didn't help As I was given the wrong ''dx'' I suppose the wrong treatment wasn't a surprise

They intentionally try to provoke anger? I wondered if that was the case when a t I saw a few times said something super condemning to me. How did I handle it? I never went back to her and it went around and around in my mind even still...

[Fuzzybear]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

They intentionally try to provoke anger? I wondered if that was the case when a t I saw a few times said something super condemning to me. How did I handle it? I never went back to her and it went around and around in my mind even still...

Those condemning comments from ''treatment providers''
What sort of ''treatment'' do they provide? grrrrrr

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by Fuzzybear

Those condemning comments from ''treatment providers''
What sort of ''treatment'' do they provide? grrrrrr

What were they hoping to achieve? Do you think it was truly a therapy approach to anger and frustrate us? Lol, why would that ever work?

[TishaBuv]

This other psychiatrist I went to specialized in substance abuse. I went in there being truthful that I had taken 2 Benadryl He made me pee in a cup. Yes, I was truthful. Then after talking to me for 45 minutes, he bangs his fist on the desk, and sternly says I have major depressive disorder. He barked it at me like it was punishment! What a jerk! I never went back to him, either.

[Fuzzybear]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

This other psychiatrist I went to specialized in substance abuse. I went in there being truthful that I had taken 2 Benadryl He made me pee in a cup. Yes, I was truthful. Then after talking to me for 45 minutes, he bangs his fist on the desk, and sternly says I have major depressive disorder. He barked it at me like it was punishment! What a jerk! I never went back to him, either.

What a jerk Growl..

[MrsA]

Originally Posted by Fuzzybear

I guess I was thinking of when treatment providers try to trigger anger. This has definitely happened to me. I think they were trying to provoke change. But it didn't help As I was given the wrong ''dx'' I suppose the wrong treatment wasn't a surprise

It's interesting thst they would deliberately trigger anger. While growing up in an abusive family, I was often labeled an angry person but I felt that my anger was a sign of self-esteem. I didn't know therapists would trigger anger in people because of the negative stigma around the emotion. So did you ever feel angry at whatever they wanted you to be angry about?

[Fuzzybear]

Originally Posted by MrsA

It's interesting thst they would deliberately trigger anger. While growing up in an abusive family, I was often labeled an angry person but I felt that my anger was a sign of self-esteem. I didn't know therapists would trigger anger in people because of the negative stigma around the emotion. So did you ever feel angry at whatever they wanted you to be angry about?

I did feel hurt and angry, because they misjudged me and mislabelled me. And were not even civil. They were not even slightly caring or understanding. They were bullies.

I was also labelled an angry person when growing up in an abusive family. I think too that some anger is a sign of self esteem, rather than allowing an abuser to treat someone like a chew toy.

[MrsA]

@Fuzzybear It's nice to meet someone who thinks like me.

[TunedOut]

Originally Posted by Lilly2

In anthropology terms, I'd say that the phrase you mentioned in the title rings true, that "when outraged, people take action." There are many instances in time and space where outraged groups fought back against those whom they believed to have harmed them. It's a survival instinct. I'm not sure on what the specific terms are, but there are other social science branches that have objectively looked at this phenomenon.

In peace studies, for example, there are two kinds of action:

1. Violent action (think Nelson Mandela)

2. Non-violent action (think Martin Luther King, Jr.)

Both leaders were outraged at what was going on, and both leaders took action. Both leaders saw what was happening to minorities, and they decided to do something about it.

When individuals are outraged, they seek action in one of two ways, too:

1. Violent action (e.g., self-defense, defensive aggression, criminal aggression, unlawful aggression, seeking physical revenge, spreading libel or slander, spreading rumors, name-calling, yelling, etc.)

2. Non-violent action (e.g., communication, complaints, verbal boundaries, legal boundaries, lawsuits, leading or joining peaceful protests, ghosting, publicizing true victimizations, advocating, finding alternative options, calling the police, making a citizen's arrest)

Outrage is such a strong word and a strong feeling. It is generally experienced after cumulative abuses, cumulative traumas, cumulative (poly)victmization, and/or cumulative wrongs have been done against a person or a group of people. Thoughts that coincide with feeling outraged may include:

1. Enough is enough!

2. I cannot stand this happening to me (or people like me) anymore!

3. When is this going to stop?

Victim-blaming and/or victim-shaming occurs when systemic/structural violence gets blamed on individuals or groups of people, which sounds like this:

1. You don't have to pay attention to those words or actions; just ignore them.

2. You are too sensitive.

3. Well, the majority of people who fit your description (looks, personalities, cultural beliefs/practices, socioeconomic status) are <fill in negative here>.

4. How can you change your thoughts to reduce your reaction to what you're hearing? (this represents an inappropriate CBT approach when the issue is not nor should not be the responsibility of the victim; it should be the responsibility of the offender, or the widespread offenses that continue to occur; this is what "continuous traumatic stress" looks like; it's not past traumas or "little t's"; discrimination, bigotry, prejudice, stigma, microaggressions, hate speech, and hate crimes are all forms of trauma that attacks certain groups of people, including people categorized by their skin color, height, weight, disability, mental illness, personality type, age, SES, etc.)

Such are considered secondary traumas and therefore adds to the outrage they feel. This is why peacemaking circles, restorative justice, compromises, new protective laws, and our First Amendment (if not others as well) are in place. We can use our First Amendment rights to freely speak about the wrongs being done to us. We can use peacemaking or restorative justice circles to bring offenders and victims together for a productive chat. We can advocate for new protective laws and/or policies, so that minorities aren't being harmed by discrimination, harassment, bullying, unethical practices, hate crimes, etc.

Thus, I agree that when outraged, people will take action. What that action is depends on the situation and all who are involved.

Originally Posted by Lilly2

@Fuzzybear (((safe hugs)))

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

I, too, felt outraged at the years and money wasted on misdiagnoses and mistreatments. It hurts, and healing from that hurt is challenged when our pain gets undermined or dismissed altogether.

I hear your pain. I'm sorry what happened to you.

The actions I chose when feeling outraged from this were:
1. File complaints
2. Communicate my laments
3. Find support
4. Educate myself
5. Find alternative treatments
6. Self-care
7. Spread awareness
8. Advocate
9. Take notes
10. Do research
11. Find and list resources
12. Take time to grieve
13. Ask for help
14. Remove myself from toxic situations
15. Reaffirm the boundaries I want to have for myself and with others
16. Reassess my goals
17. Learn to adjust to the effects that all this pain has caused me by finding a new purpose
18. Healing through salutogenesis
19. Healing through posttraumatic growth
20. Healing through meaning-making and finding a workable narrative in my life - facts, past feelings, current feelings, feelings that I want to eventually have, old thoughts, new thoughts, growth charts, and more!

These are the steps that I take when I feel outraged, defeated, overwhelmed, helpless, misunderstood, stepped on, taken advantage of, hurt, harmed, abused, traumatized, etc.

I hope you are doing okay. I know you've been processing a lot of this stuff. It's okay to take a break from processing so that you can enjoy the fun stuff, too. The processing stuff can be "contained" until the next time we are ready to take it off the shelf and work on more processing. That's called "pacing and containing," which has helped me stay grounded and focused only on what I need to focus on in the moment. I can revisit the past anytime, and I can work toward my future at a pace that I feel is most comfortable and healthy for me. I can live and enjoy the present, and be in charge of my own life, no matter what others tell me. --These are the words I tell myself, and you can tell yourself good, positive words, too. You're doing so well with posting all these great threads here. I love your threads! I just hope you are doing some self-care for you, too. You deserve happiness and all the good things in life. We all do.

I'm just glad that you take time to process these things with us on PC. It reminds me of some unresolved pain that I have, too. It's important that we be safe while processing these painful things, too. Self-care really helps.

(((safe hugs)))

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

This other psychiatrist I went to specialized in substance abuse. I went in there being truthful that I had taken 2 Benadryl He made me pee in a cup. Yes, I was truthful. Then after talking to me for 45 minutes, he bangs his fist on the desk, and sternly says I have major depressive disorder. He barked it at me like it was punishment! What a jerk! I never went back to him, either.

Originally Posted by Fuzzybear

I did feel hurt and angry, because they misjudged me and mislabelled me. And were not even civil. They were not even slightly caring or understanding. They were bullies.

I was also labelled an angry person when growing up in an abusive family. I think too that some anger is a sign of self esteem, rather than allowing an abuser to treat someone like a chew toy.

Good thread. I am sorry about people who have endured anger they didn't deserve.

Anger can come from so many places like compassion for others, projecting something from the past unconsciously, a tactic to maintain power/cause a fear reaction that renders the victim powerless (especially when the victim has had experiences that have conditioned them ), etc.. Of course compassionate anger and anger that enables you to stand up for your God given rights would be a positive type of anger. Sometimes powerful people are able to effectively overwhelm "righteous" anger. It's not easy, especially for those with very little power. This is why bad actors like to isolate people and don't want the truth to be known. We can think it is us but it might be happening over and over again.

At times, I have responded to anger appropriately; other times, I have not. When we are angry or make someone else angry, it is important to understand what caused the anger. Are they angry that they were caught doing something that was wrong or abusive? Angry because they were unfairly taken advantage of? It can take time to sort out but should be examined and situations can be complex but emotions tell us something important about ourselves or others. I have ignored some of my emotions or not taken the appropriate action and the inaction wasn't so good either. It is so important to listen to and honor everyone's emotions.

[TishaBuv]

Of course we get angry and feel resentful when we are treated poorly! That’s a normal reaction. We are angry because someone intentionally hurt us. Shame on them, not on us!

Do psy’s intentionally get the client angry to see how they react in order to diagnose them or as some strange therapeutic approach?

I didn’t stick around long enough to find out, lol. Why would I go back to talk to someone callous and mean? I was hoping for a caring person to help me. I wanted the psy to speak to me with compassion, even if calling me out on my own bad behavior. IMHO, that’s the only way to ever get anywhere in a confrontation with anyone about anything. If you nastily put them on the defensive, they are going to get indignant and lash out at you.

There are some people who can’t stand criticism no matter how you approach it. They will deny and lash out over their own abusive behavior.

I was always open to my own wrong doings and wanted to improve. I went to therapy to try to learn how to get along in these difficult relationships.

On my own, I’ve come up with the only coping skill to just avoid getting into it with toxic people, finding nicer people, doing enjoyable, helpful things, and trying to mind my own big mouth.

I must have seen over a dozen different therapists over the past 20 years now until I finally gave up. In all fairness, only a couple said mean, angering comments. Most were open, kind, somewhat sympathetic but I found them not very effective for me. That’s on me, probably my own trust issues never let me really feel comfortable. Plus, I wanted to change the other person, and that certainly was never going to happen, lol. I know it had to be me to change myself. That’s still a challenge.

[TunedOut]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

Of course we get angry and feel resentful when we are treated poorly! That’s a normal reaction. We are angry because someone intentionally hurt us. Shame on them, not on us!

There are some people who can’t stand criticism no matter how you approach it. They will deny and lash out over their own abusive behavior.

I was always open to my own wrong doings and wanted to improve. I went to therapy to try to learn how to get along in these difficult relationships.

Yes, I have understand this.

Maybe there has been some obsessing over: "Could I be wrong?" instead of just trusting ourselves?

In my case, that I am very indecisive and see two sides to everything plus change my mind all of the time made it so hard to sort through conflicts and see them clearly. My anxiety/fear response clouded my reason plus I fell for a lot of guilt tripping which came from all sides. It drove me to madness but with my meds and because I am learning to trust in myself and God better, my judgement is better now. Tisha, your therapy seems to be seeking spiritual guidance, curiousity about how everything works plus learning to trust that you are enough. In my case, the need to please others made me devalue my own good judgement. The obsessive thinking was about attempting to reconcile what others said with what I felt. Huge mismatch.

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by TunedOut

Yes, I have understand this.

Maybe there has been some obsessing over: "Could I be wrong?" instead of just trusting ourselves?

In my case, that I am very indecisive and see two sides to everything plus change my mind all of the time made it so hard to sort through conflicts and see them clearly. My anxiety/fear response clouded my reason plus I fell for a lot of guilt tripping which came from all sides. It drove me to madness but with my meds and because I am learning to trust in myself and God better, my judgement is better now. Tisha, your therapy seems to be seeking spiritual guidance, curiousity about how everything works plus learning to trust that you are enough. In my case, the need to please others made me devalue my own good judgement. The obsessive thinking was about attempting to reconcile what others said with what I felt. Huge mismatch.

The nice thing about my ruminating is that I’ve looked at it from every possible POV. . How am I wrong? How does the other person see it? How does the lamp see it? Ultimately, I do trust in myself.

Abusers will gaslight us and convince us to devalue our own good judgment. That little voice in me that tells me something is wrong and gives me a warning has never been wrong. I’ve never once been sorry for having listened to my gut. Plus, I’ve asked many other close people their thoughts on things to make sure I’m not over reacting. When they all tell me I am making perfect sense, I feel confident. But, I’ve made several choices of action that didn’t turn out with the outcome I wanted. Sometimes, no matter what you do, you’ll come out with a bad outcome. You go back and think ‘could I have done something differently to make it go better?’ And no, it wouldn’t have mattered. That’s where spirituality comes in. Maybe it’s beyond our control and we are just destined to go through some good and bad things.

Please forgive me for getting off your topic, Fuzzy.

[Buffy01]

Originally Posted by Fuzzybear

How much do you agree with this statement?

I agree with this statement and I do believe this statement.

[Fuzzybear]

This is certainly true. Abusers gaslight us to try to convince us to devalue our own good judgment

I read somewhere that abusers will target truth, wisdom... and try to devalue it

I also ruminate and the good thing about it is that I examine things from every possible POV

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

The nice thing about my ruminating is that I’ve looked at it from every possible POV. . How am I wrong? How does the other person see it? How does the lamp see it? Ultimately, I do trust in myself.

Abusers will gaslight us and convince us to devalue our own good judgment. That little voice in me that tells me something is wrong and gives me a warning has never been wrong. I’ve never once been sorry for having listened to my gut. Plus, I’ve asked many other close people their thoughts on things to make sure I’m not over reacting. When they all tell me I am making perfect sense, I feel confident. But, I’ve made several choices of action that didn’t turn out with the outcome I wanted. Sometimes, no matter what you do, you’ll come out with a bad outcome. You go back and think ‘could I have done something differently to make it go better?’ And no, it wouldn’t have mattered. That’s where spirituality comes in. Maybe it’s beyond our control and we are just destined to go through some good and bad things.

Please forgive me for getting off your topic, Fuzzy.

[Mendingmysoul]

So much wisdom in this thread.Thank you for posting your thoughts.Yes abusers devalue what should be valued.Abusers have twisted brains.

[TishaBuv]

Carole King song. One of my favorites. This recently helped get me through the grief of a huge loss which was orchestrated on us by someone who chose to be an adversary.

If an abuser can get you to doubt yourself it’s easier for them to get their way. Some really skilled manipulators even convince you doing the hurtful thing was your idea! I had to cope with this.