What is depression? Seriouly

Feb 18, 2014, 04:50 PM

Well, nimh got some praise a few years ago for controlling corporate involvement in two or three studies but they have gotten a lot of harsh criticism too. This is not actually a study and does not include anybody without a relationship to ely lily.

I do believe in the bio social idea. The Neuro plasticity changes also relate to nature related issues. There is a phd that study's this in autistic children. That's actually what got me interested. Iow, mindful practice (for example) is effective for the inherited side of the puzzle. I also believe ads are helpful when appropriate. However, I do not buy into the idea of a life long requirement so long as you follow more then med treatment. In fact I find the idea of a lifetime on meds to be extremely detrimental for many reasons. In the 60's and earlier people would not, in most cases, experience relapses or progressive illness characteristics after treatment. It climbed dramatically in the 90's on. There are many theories but meds seem the most obvious.

Side note is there are people working on the possibility of epigenome changes within your lifetime. Mindfulness may also effect this. Before it was thought changes in the epigenome layer effected future generations. Big pharma is also working on meds for this but I will be watching what other find out without meds

Altered Moment · Feb 19, 2014, 08:15 AM

There is also a PHD at UCLA who studies stoke victims and neuroplascticity. Jeffery Swarzt. He is very big on mindfullness meditation as is UCLA. I have been practicing it for years and do believe it helps but has not changed my brain enough to overcome the depression. In fact the depression has gotten worse over the years. I guess I am still hoping for a magic pill which we know there are none.

Feb 19, 2014, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

There is also a PHD at UCLA who studies stoke victims and neuroplascticity. Jeffery Swarzt. He is very big on mindfullness meditation as is UCLA. I have been practicing it for years and do believe it helps but has not changed my brain enough to overcome the depression. In fact the depression has gotten worse over the years. I guess I am still hoping for a magic pill which we know there are none.

No I do not believe there will ever be a magic bullet. Depression may even be designed that way.

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Altered Moment · Feb 21, 2014, 03:26 AM

Here is another article published by harvard that explains the causes of depression as they are currently understood.
What causes depression? - Harvard Health Publications

Quote from first section of article=

Quote:

It’s often said that depression results from a chemical imbalance, but that figure of speech doesn’t capture how complex the disease is. Research suggests that depression doesn’t spring from simply having too much or too little of certain brain chemicals. Rather, depression has many possible causes, including faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability, stressful life events, medications, and medical problems. It’s believed that several of these forces interact to bring on depression.

To be sure, chemicals are involved in this process, but it is not a simple matter of one chemical being too low and another too high. Rather, many chemicals are involved, working both inside and outside nerve cells. There are millions, even billions, of chemical reactions that make up the dynamic system that is responsible for your mood, perceptions, and how you experience life.

With this level of complexity, you can see how two people might have similar symptoms of depression, but the problem on the inside, and therefore what treatments will work best, may be entirely different.

Researchers have learned much about the biology of depression. They’ve identified genes that make individuals more vulnerable to low moods and influence how an individual responds to drug therapy. One day, these discoveries should lead to better, more individualized treatment (see “From the lab to your medicine cabinet”), but that is likely to be years away. And while researchers know more now than ever before about how the brain regulates mood, their understanding of the biology of depression is far from complete.

What follows is an overview of the current understanding of the major factors believed to play a role in depression.

snarkydaddy · Feb 27, 2014, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

There is also a PHD at UCLA who studies stoke victims and neuroplascticity. Jeffery Swarzt. He is very big on mindfullness meditation as is UCLA. I have been practicing it for years and do believe it helps but has not changed my brain enough to overcome the depression. In fact the depression has gotten worse over the years. I guess I am still hoping for a magic pill which we know there are none.

I have tried various forms of meditations in the end what works for me is being still, not moving at all. Sitting or laying down. Moving just makes everything much worse. And then I just stare at an object, not really thinking about it or anything ejse for very long and let it pass. It may take an hour.

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Denman · Feb 27, 2014, 09:37 AM

Hmmmm. All the books I've read indicate the reverse - that depression is the result of a chemical imbalance. All my pdocs have indicated the same thing. Interesting that there are so many different points of view regarding Depression. Serotonin, Dopamine and Inflammation all have an effect on Depression. So I'm hoping the antidepressants I'm taking, in addition to the Omega-3 Fish Oils, and increased Vitamin-D will assist with my symptoms.

Feb 27, 2014, 10:19 AM

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/...ry_a_myth.html

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Hellion · Feb 27, 2014, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alone & confused

My T told me years ago that there was a difference between depression and sadness. She said " clinical depression" is a chemical imbalance. She said if there is an environmental reason for "depression" it's sadness or something else. She said that clinical depression comes without a known cause. Not sure if that was the type of answer you were looking for, but I hope it helps.

Actually environmental factors can be part of depression...so having an environmental reason doesn't necessarily mean its normal sadness. I mean if someone is fine mentally and say a close relative dies...then yeah they are going to be very sad but doesn't mean they have depression. However if one has say a genetic predisposition for depression it is possible something like that could end up triggering the symptoms. It can actually get pretty complicated and confusing I imagine.

leomama · Feb 27, 2014, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snarkydaddy

I have tried various forms of meditations in the end what works for me is being still, not moving at all. Sitting or laying down. Moving just makes everything much worse. And then I just stare at an object, not really thinking about it or anything ejse for very long and let it pass. It may take an hour.

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I think mindfulness is more for bpd

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Altered Moment · Feb 27, 2014, 11:21 AM

I would agree with that article. Basically it says chemical imbalance is only a small part of the story. SSRI and SNRI only work in 50% of people. They don't really know how and why they work. You can't trust big pharma and all their advertising. According to them they had it all figured out and Prozac was a magic pill. I am still convinced however that in my case it is genetically and biologically caused. Same with my addictive personality and alcoholism. They go hand in hand. I also believe environmental factors played a role. What is encouraging is that it is known now that the brain is much more plastic and changes all the time. This means CBT behavior meditation exercise can change your brain.

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Altered Moment · Feb 27, 2014, 11:24 AM

It is proven also that abuse, trauma, neglect, etc changes the brain.

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Altered Moment · Feb 27, 2014, 11:29 AM

I have been meditating for many years. Recently I have been trying to focus positive energy into the parts of my brain that are messed up. Sounds crazy but I do try it. This is why I try to stay up with the latest research on which parts of the brain are implicated. It does lift my mood while I am meditating but then it goes away.

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Feb 27, 2014, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leomama

I think mindfulness is more for bpd

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It's for everybody. And there is a form for everybody. Meditation is just one form. I like more active mindfulness. Zentangle (Zentangle.com) is designed to be a mindful practice. I consider it "active". I used to teach it. It was largely responsible for taking me out of my last depression.

Jon kabat zin has a book on depression and mindfulness but is a few years old and uses meditation as the primary form. Real challenge form me. Since then the center he started studies more active forms including hearing presentations about Zentangle. (They have studied art but not Zentangle.) But there is an ios app called buddify that I can actually do. They also have the mp3s on their site.

Btw, you can practice mindfulness anywhere. Example, next time you are driving a car pay attention to everything sensory from when you blink to the pedals to your feet to the feel of the road to the sounds outside your window. Really pay attention. That is mindfulness!

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Feb 27, 2014, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I would agree with that article. Basically it says chemical imbalance is only a small part of the story. SSRI and SNRI only work in 50% of people. They don't really know how and why they work. You can't trust big pharma and all their advertising. According to them they had it all figured out and Prozac was a magic pill. I am still convinced however that in my case it is genetically and biologically caused. Same with my addictive personality and alcoholism. They go hand in hand. I also believe environmental factors played a role. What is encouraging is that it is known now that the brain is much more plastic and changes all the time. This means CBT behavior meditation exercise can change your brain.

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I don't think they disregard genetics. Dbt was designed and works on merely the assumption of a bio social theory but she makes the distinction that she isn't saying it is proven or right. More hypothetical. The assumption works is all that matters to her. Rather interesting considering neuroplasticity.

"“But nobody has ever demonstrated that a shortage of serotonin was the cause of depression or any other illness,” Shorter says."

I equate this to consuming lots of sugar. You get addicted and there is a subtle high but there is certainly no shortage.

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snarkydaddy · Feb 27, 2014, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leomama

I think mindfulness is more for bpd

It will be interesting to see what is more effective in the end. DBT or an adaptation of DBT with what I am all ready doing or something else entirely.

One thing is for sure we will find out soon.

leomama · Feb 27, 2014, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snarkydaddy

It will be interesting to see what is more effective in the end. DBT or an adaptation of DBT with what I am all ready doing or something else entirely.

One thing is for sure we will find out soon.

That was meant for the person you were responding to

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Altered Moment · Feb 27, 2014, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Michanne "“But nobody has ever demonstrated that a shortage of serotonin was the cause of depression or any other illness,” Shorter says."

I equate this to consuming lots of sugar. You get addicted and there is a subtle high but there is certainly no shortage.

I don't think I buy that.

What causes depression? - Harvard Health Publications

Quote:

Researchers are exploring possible links between sluggish production of new neurons in the hippocampus and low moods. An interesting fact about antidepressants supports this theory. These medications immediately boost the concentration of chemical messengers in the brain (neurotransmitters). Yet people typically don’t begin to feel better for several weeks or longer. Experts have long wondered why, if depression were primarily the result of low levels of neurotransmitters, people don’t feel better as soon as levels of neurotransmitters increase.

The answer may be that mood only improves as nerves grow and form new connections, a process that takes weeks. In fact, animal studies have shown that antidepressants do spur the growth and enhanced branching of nerve cells in the hippocampus. So, the theory holds, the real value of these medications may be in generating new neurons (a process called neurogenesis), strengthening nerve cell connections, and improving the exchange of information between nerve circuits. If that’s the case, medications could be developed that specifically promote neurogenesis, with the hope that patients would see quicker results than with current treatments.

In the meantime, animal research lends credence to the theory. A 2003 study in Science found that when neurogenesis is blocked in mice, the benefits of antidepressants seem to disappear. After receiving antidepressants for four weeks, mice exhibited less anxious or depressed behavior (they became bolder about retrieving food from a brightly lit place). These treated mice had 60% more dividing cells in the hippocampus. However, when researchers impeded new cell growth by dousing the hippocampus with x-rays, drug treatment failed to reduce anxious behavior in the mice. While more work needs to be done to determine the role of neurogenesis in depression, this is an interesting avenue of research.

Mental illness: is 'chemical imbalance' theory a myth? | Toronto Star

Quote:

But, he says, most top researchers are still certain that neurotransmitters play a significant role in several psychiatric maladies.
“I think you’d find thousands of neuroscientists who’d think that at one level there is a role for several — maybe not all that many — but certainly several of the major neurotransmitters.”
With schizophrenia, for example, there is no question that one of the five neural receptors that welcome dopamine into brain cells is a key player in the disease, Phillips says.
And drugs that block that “D2” receptor work wonders in calming psychotic symptoms in schizophrenic patients, whether a dopamine imbalance is the sole cause of the disease or not, he says.
Even Phillips, however, concedes that those touting the neurotransmitter theory overplayed their hand in depression research.

There is so little known. The medical arts have always been trial and error. I think neurotransmitters definitely play a role from everything I have read. We are guinea pigs.

Altered Moment · Feb 27, 2014, 03:25 PM

A functional-dimensional approach to depress... [Psychopathology. 1991] - PubMed - NCBI

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

I do agree you can't trust big pharma and their studies, and there is alot of debate about the chemical imbalance theory, but I do not think it is accurate to say it is a myth or to say seretonin does not play a role. Just my opinion I am not an expert. Probably Michanne and I are largely in agreement on most things. Maybe not on meds although I do think I remember Michanne saying he did take meds.

Altered Moment · 04:44 PM

Serotonin and Depression: 9 Questions and Answers

WebMD

Quote:

Although it is widely believed that a serotonin deficiency plays a role in depression, there is no way to measure its levels in the living brain. Therefore, there have not been any studies proving that brain levels of this or any neurotransmitter are in short supply when depression or any mental illness develops. Blood levels of serotonin are measurable -- and have been shown to be lower in people who suffer from depression – but researchers don't know if blood levels reflect the brain's level of serotonin.

Also, researchers don't know whether the dip in serotonin causes the depression, or the depression causes serotonin levels to drop.

Although it is widely believed that a serotonin deficiency plays a role in depression, there is no way to measure its levels in the living brain. The

Antidepressant medications that work on serotonin levels -- SSRIs (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) and SNRIs (serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors) -- are believed to reduce symptoms of depression, but exactly how they work is not yet fully understood.

Altered Moment · Feb 27, 2014, 05:11 PM

Don't get me wrong I am not a big fan of the SSRI's and SNRI's. They have not been that effective for me. I have refractory or treatment resistant depression. When I am in a severe depression nothing seems to work. Seems like I am always in a moderate to mild depression. The severe depressions just have to run their cycle in me. The Lamictal I am currently on definitely has improved my mood. Not any other symptoms though. Lamictal is a totally different class.

Feb 27, 2014, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I don't think I buy that.

What causes depression? - Harvard Health Publications

Mental illness: is 'chemical imbalance' theory a myth? | Toronto Star

There is so little known. The medical arts have always been trial and error. I think neurotransmitters definitely play a role from everything I have read. We are guinea pigs.

The reason I make the connection to sugar which is more of analogy is that 99% of seratonin is in the gut. When I did a cleanse which cleaned out the gut I was immediately able to drop the ssri afterwards. I had been reducing it for several months a couple time having to go back up because it was too fast. I also experienced the symptoms of serotonin syndrome. Is that scientific? NO! But listening to my body seems to be as valuable as reading the research. And I read a lot of research

I am very suspicious of reasons why they would spend so much time selling seratonin for the brain and NOT research what is in the gut. If anyone has said I have not seen it yet. But you know... Ssri's are cheap so why bother?

On the Harvard article. I can not determine if the dr gets paid by pharma. There's a database for it ... On politico? What makes me suspicious is how many speaking engagements and public appearances he does. Pharma does pay doctors to speak on their behalf. Harvard press is not Harvard university so this is not a research based paper. He basically compiled the info but there are no sources listed.

McClean is where the depression research is for Harvard. If you look at a sample of projects they do not deal with chemical imbalances. I did see a publication about the future of AD. Ssri was mentioned on the first page as ineffective for some percent of patients. The paper is way over my head but it is clear they are going in a completely different direction.

http://cdasr.mclean.harvard.edu/index.php/research

EDIT:
The idea that we are guinea pigs is unacceptable to me in this day and age. Take the marketing and profit peace out of big pharma and you might soften my position. But when I look at projects that indies are doing I see things that look much more promising and invasive. It just needs to come to mainstream.

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shabur · Feb 27, 2014, 06:29 PM

I got lucky.

I inherited mine form my mother's side of the family. I can remember at a young age having times of depression.
As for describing it, I can't. It's just a jumble of emotions, confusion, ... in my head and body.

Altered Moment · Feb 27, 2014, 07:08 PM

I say we are guinea pigs because with most meds much more is learned after they have been on the market for a long time than before it is released. They learn from our experience. The brain is very hard to study.

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Altered Moment · Feb 27, 2014, 07:17 PM

I do not know what seretonin in the gut has any thing to do with it. Seretonin has many different receptors and serves a number of functions in the body. It serves a totally different function in the gut than it does in the brain.

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Altered Moment · Feb 27, 2014, 07:36 PM

I do agree with you that it is going in a totally different direction and needs to. I remember reading a popular book (I can't remember the name) but she mapped the highest concentrations of neurotransmitter concentrations in the body and the gut had a very high concentration. They also all lined up with the chakras.

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