[amandalouise]

there is already a thread on pretending in this forum but my views are different than that thread so to not hijack that other thread I decided to start my own thread...

i did not have a problem with pretending and socializing. with me my alters had their own sense of agency (see link at bottom of post) with me and my alters there was no pretending. I did not have to pretend to be like others or pretend to like or dislike someone in social settings or avoid social settings because o my having DID before all my alters were integrated. I didnt even know I had DID until I was an adult in a collage psych course where one of the class and homework assignments was to do a psychiatric exam and enter therapy for that semester. that was those of us that were in college psych courses as part of becoming treatment providers would have both sides of the career...being a client and also training for our chosen careers.

with having alters that had their own sense of agency my system did not have to worry about fitting in, pretending and whether or not to socialize. if one or the other or the body born were in a situation that was triggering\ uncomfortable another who could handle that situation took control. As a result of having this kind of system I and my alters, socialized much more than I would have with out having DID, I had many friendships and such with co workers I would not have otherwise had if I hadnt had DID, I didnt have to pretend to fit in because if I didnt fit in, an alter that did fit in would take control.

I think of it this way...I had more than 5 alters, each one of those alters had their own sets of friends, for example using just 5 alters if each alter had two friends thats 10 friends more than I would have had if I was not DID, thats 10 social situations if I hadnt had DID that would have made me think I needed to pretend or not socialize/ be apart of, but because I had such a system where each of my alters had their own sense of agency thats 10 friends and social situations we fit in with, no pretending was needed.

no one in this body or the body born had to pretend to be someone or something they were not, pretend for socializing and such, dont get me wrong secrets were kept its just that it was done in a way that did not require pretending. it was more everyone the body born included just didnt answer those questions that would have revealed secrets.

like I said I know that there is another pretending thread for those who have had to pretend, and I know having this kind of system (not pretending) is different than some others, but I wanted others like me to have the same opportunity to discuss this side of having DID (the side of not having to pretend, miss out on social opportunities ...) , just like having a system where pretending was needed has a thread for that discussion.

[Luce]

Well, I can relate to some of what you wrote here. In terms of social life and friends, in teenage years we had 'an alter for every occasion'. Well, not literally, but it felt like that sometimes. We never fit in anywhere, but at the same time we fit in everywhere.
I think of high school life... we had a nerd who was besties with a disabled physics prodigy; a dropout who was friends with the 'losers'; a soft-spoken sensitive one who hung out with the high-achievers in the music department; a quiet lonely worker who excelled at school work; a delinquent who hung with the trouble makers and was always getting suspended and expelled... and the list goes on. Each alter was perfectly suited to their role, and accepted within their chosen peer group. Each group on its own was not a problem... the problems came when any group of friends overlapped with another one. In those instances we became very dissociative and switchy, which makes sense to me now. I need to note that at that time of life the front day-to-day alters had no awareness of each other at all.

But then I can also relate to what was written in the other thread, because later in life, when we became aware of our DID and developed co-consciousness, we experienced some of the problems associated with that. For instance (and this has happened many, many times) a switch might be triggered but because of coconsciousness we are aware it has happened - both the front one and the one that switched out are aware that the 'wrong' person is at the front. Both are also aware that if the one at the front is to speak or act in his or her typical way then the secret of DID may be revealed. In those instances we have sometimes had the front one deliberately 'act' like the original one to hide the switch, or we have been 'frozen' in some way while we fight to switch back. But we have definitely been caught off guard in ways that we have been fully aware of, and had to pretend or otherwise cover for the switch so as not to reveal / embarrass / shame ourselves.

I see them as two very different scenarios, based on the level of coconsciousness at the time. AL, since you have only ever had a very limited level of coconsciousness it makes perfect sense to me why you do not understand the challenges that come with that.

What are your thoughts?

[Aardwolf]

You would be amazed the flexibility that having others can give you... The ability to adapt to a chancing social group in an instant, sometimes without thinking. A large level of trust has to be built, and more importantly maintained...

A lot of it comes fluidly now, as we integrated a number of years ago after a huge amount of work from all involved. - There was the small issue of when I was a teenager, but didn't know how to handle MPD. That was a problem in itself, but i digress.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Luce

Well, I can relate to some of what you wrote here. In terms of social life and friends, in teenage years we had 'an alter for every occasion'. Well, not literally, but it felt like that sometimes. We never fit in anywhere, but at the same time we fit in everywhere.
I think of high school life... we had a nerd who was besties with a disabled physics prodigy; a dropout who was friends with the 'losers'; a soft-spoken sensitive one who hung out with the high-achievers in the music department; a quiet lonely worker who excelled at school work; a delinquent who hung with the trouble makers and was always getting suspended and expelled... and the list goes on. Each alter was perfectly suited to their role, and accepted within their chosen peer group. Each group on its own was not a problem... the problems came when any group of friends overlapped with another one. In those instances we became very dissociative and switchy, which makes sense to me now. I need to note that at that time of life the alters had no awareness of each other at all.

But then I can also relate to what was written in the other thread, because later in life, when we became aware of our DID and developed co-consciousness, we experienced some of the problems associated with that. For instance (and this has happened many, many times) a switch might be triggered but because of coconsciousness we are aware it has happened - both the front one and the one that switched out are aware that the 'wrong' person is at the front. Both are also aware that if the one at the front is to speak or act in his or her typical way then the secret of DID may be revealed. In those instances we have sometimes had the front one deliberately 'act' like the original one to hide the switch, or we have been 'frozen' in some way while we fight to switch back. But we have definitely been caught off guard in ways that we have been fully aware of, and had to pretend or otherwise cover for the switch so as not to reveal / embarrass / shame ourselves.

I see them as two very different scenarios, based on the level of coconsciousness at the time. AL, since you have only ever had a very limited level of coconsciousness it makes perfect sense to me why you do not understand the challenges that come with it.

What are your thoughts?

what do I think. i love it that you had both sides of this issue. I know many with many levels of co consciousness that have one or the other or both sides so my opinion is that co consciousness or lack there of wasnt the issue of why I am different than the other thread. and its not that I dont understand the challenges, its that I did not experience the challenges in the other thread. the poster said they only wanted replies from those that experienced their way of this issue in their starting post, since their thread was limited to only those that did have to use pretending I thought it would be nice to have a thread for those that did not have to use pretending. again its not that I dont understand that side of it, its just that because of the way my system was comprised I did not have to worry about that side of things, it had nothing to do with my limited co consciousness. even with those I was co conscious with there wasnt an issue of pretending due to the way my internal system was comprised where when ever I or the others encountered triggers or discomfort an alter that handled that problem took control.

[elevatedsoul]

did you know when the others were fronting

[Aardwolf]

To begin with? No. I had no idea, I just felt 'not right'. Now I'm much better at knowing what is going on inside my head!

[ruh roh]

Thank you for this thread. I'm not sure I understand the core issue of pretending, but I do understand what you say about alters taking control as needed. I'm still not sure where pretending plays any kind of role since it's my understanding that d i d is hidden from others by design.

My understanding is that everyone's job is to keep things running smoothly on the outside, even though that does not always happen in my case with lot of current stress and triggers due to increased family interactions. So when there's this kind of stress, I keep outside contact to a minimum. I wouldn't call any of this pretending, though, and I still struggle to understand what that means, unless it has to do with a greater ability to control who is out? Or the degree of co-consciousness, as someone pointed out? If that's the case, I still don't get it, because I think I have a good degree of co-consciousness, although things are spotty sometimes.

My therapist is the only real life person I have to talk to about this and she says no one is likely at all to notice my switching. She can see it because of the years I've been seeing her and she's gotten to recognize different ones. So the only pretending going on with people in the outside world is just an omission of a diagnostic label. To others, I might appear moody or quirky, but that's it.

If everyone in my life were to be in the same room, there would be definite groups of outside people who have absolutely nothing in common with each other--like, literally, nothing. That tells me that whichever of us needs to be out at a given time is able to do that (again, unless there is a lot of stress, in which case...chaos and public meltdown). But no one is pretending to be another that I am aware of. Everyone uses the same name on the outside, which is not the birth name, but a functional one taken when the break from family was finally made at 21. Again, though, I don't see that as pretending when that name is used, but more a function of d i d to keep hidden.

[elevatedsoul]

i think maybe what she was meaning is the act of pretending to be another other than yourself...?

alter ego type...?

edit:
but sometimes wont an alter pretend to be the original, or another alter.. ? just for the sake of confusion..

[ruh roh]

But what is the point of an alter pretending to be another alter? In my case, the system is designed to function, so that whoever needs to be out is out...or there is a meltdown because one who can't handle things is out. But no one is pretending to be another. Each one of us feels as important as the other. The original is the most hidden of all, and there is no one pretending to be her. But maybe this is an anomaly?

[elevatedsoul]

seems like alot of times i have to pretend to be fine... when im not ok, which people probably can tell that im different but i try hard to hide it... but im not pretending to be someone else...
not really sure why someone would want to pretend to be something else unless like me they are just trying to hide...

[amandalouise]

I see there is some confusion ruh roh and elevated soul...

heres what I mean....

some people who are DID like in the other pretending thread the sense of agency of the alters and those they reside with in feel like they have to pretend...

pretend that they are ok,
pretend to be the person that they reside with in
pretend to be each other.

sometimes this is part of how the system survives and hides the secrets of trauma and hide that there is more than one whole person. which is what the other thread on pretending is about... having to pretend in order to protect the system, secrets and so on during parts of or all areas of their life.

others like me and what is here in this thread do not have that kind of system, in this thread you will find people whos alters and person they reside with in sense of agency is dont pretend, just switch from host and alter to alter based on which alter handles that situation.

in rare cases some people like Luce demonstrated have a combination system where their internal system may have started out one way but now use both switching and pretending as a survival\protection tool.

neither kind of system is wrong, each persons internal system is comprised in what ever ways they are in order to survive all that traumas they went through.

there is now two threads on pretending one for each kind of internal system. hope that helps explain this.

[elevatedsoul]

thank you amanda, its all really confusing...
i appreciate your explanation i look forward to reading more about this...

is it sort of like Covert and Overt systems..?

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by elevatedsoul

thank you amanda, its all really confusing...
i appreciate your explanation i look forward to reading more about this...

is it sort of like Covert and Overt systems..?

no not in my location it isnt...

here in my location the term "overt" in psychology refers to observe a persons behaviors example when you see someone walking down the street you are noticing their behavior of walking. when you listen to someone talk you are observing and listening to their speech, language, facial expressions.

here in my location the term "covert" in psychology means someones private thoughts, and imagination. example if a person tells you last night they thought about going to the movies thats their behavior. another example someone who imagines \ daydreams thats their covert behavior.

these terms are not used to define ones internal systems related to having DID because each alter has their own covert and overt behavior patterns.

example when rainy was in control her overt behavior was sitting down in a corner crying, her covert behavior was imagining monsters are out to get her, thinking she wants her blanket.

a person does not have to have a dissociative disorder to have covert and overt behaviors. every human being is capable if both and do do both. (unless of course the person is in a vegetative state and coma with no brain activity)

here try something try sitting down and stop your overt behavior....dont move at all, dont breath, dont swallow, dont scratch that itch that always happens when you try to be still, dont hear, dont talk...absolutely no movements at all, not even a smile or frown or other facial expression....impossible right.

now try the other one try stopping your covert behaviors.... dont think, dont use your imagination, no internal discussions, no worrying, no stress just total quiet not even noticing that annoying car that just went by or that annoying faucet dripping, or house settling creak.....impossible right

pretending is different. its control able. A human being can choose to tell the truth or pretend. my internal system is one where we did not pretend rather than pretending in order to protect each other and protect the secrets my alters just switched from one to another depending upon which one handled that problem...

example during a stressful moment at work if a rain storm happened which triggered me I didnt sit there and pretend to be ok. I was triggered the one that handled rain storms was rainy so Rainy took control.

[elevatedsoul]

fascinating, i only know what i've been able to read through articles, papers, and online help sites... ect ect...

so i read about covert and overt systems, such as that covert being a system that is more hidden and overt being a system that is more observable... is that still accurate with information in your location?
that doesn't involve pretending as well right? its just that one may not present obvious switching behavior...? or one may switch obviously and apparently..?

do you have any updated articles or papers that i could read online about current status of such as pretending vs not pretending?

i appreciate it... i enjoy reading about psychology and trying to understand human behavior... as well as trying to learn about myself and understand myself (and my behaviors...)

i just enjoy reading and thinking about things that interest me..

thanks, i find this interesting and am trying to gather an understanding although it seems to be trying to elude me...

one example may be, someone who is not pretending would be caught off guard by a trigger...and switch?
and one who may be pretending could be triggered and just pretend to be one who could handle?

could you elaborate more information on the mixed systems..?

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by elevatedsoul

fascinating, i only know what i've been able to read through articles, papers, and online help sites... ect ect...

so i read about covert and overt systems, such as that covert being a system that is more hidden and overt being a system that is more observable... is that still accurate with information in your location?
that doesn't involve pretending as well right? its just that one may not present obvious switching behavior...? or one may switch obviously and apparently..?

do you have any updated articles or papers that i could read online about current status of such as pretending vs not pretending?

i appreciate it... i enjoy reading about psychology and trying to understand human behavior... as well as trying to learn about myself and understand myself (and my behaviors...)

i just enjoy reading and thinking about things that interest me..

thanks, i find this interesting and am trying to gather an understanding although it seems to be trying to elude me...

one example may be, someone who is not pretending would be caught off guard by a trigger...and switch?
and one who may be pretending could be triggered and just pretend to be one who could handle?

could you elaborate more information on the mixed systems..?

for articles on pretending just type that in your search bar. here in america pretending is just a normal part of a childs development. a child first learns how to pretend and tell lies through activities like lets play pretend, lets play house, lets play what ever. schools teach children how to use their imagination, logic and other thinking solving problems skills. here in america we even have acting classes that teach children and adults how to pretend.

my point here in america we have many ways a child learns how to pretend and control their imagination/ pretending skills. pretending is not restricted to mental disorders. its something every human being with a thinking brain can do.

covert and overt, no like already stated here in my location we do not use those words in reference to DID, every human being and alter has their own combination of both overt and covert behaviors. there is no way to have one with out the other... example if an alter didnt have overt behaviors they would not be posting here on psych central because they would not be able to move or think or eat or drink, blink, run talk... if an alter didnt have covert behaviors they would not be posting here because they would not be able to think, breath, the brain would not be telling them to type the words.

this is different than pretending. a person or alter can choose to pretend/ tell a lie or not. its part of knowing what is right and wrong.

for more information on covert and overt is different than pretending you will need to contact your own treatment providers. this thread is for people to post how their alters switch rather than pretending.

[Luce]

ES, I think you are referring to 'hidden' systems rather than those that are more open and 'florid'. I think it is generally accepted nowadays that the vast majority of DID systems are hidden, because that is their purpose, but initially books and films like 'Sybil' and 'The three faces of Eve' threw the psychiatric profession off the trail - they looked out for more florid presentations of multiplicity (and found few). It really is mostly a hidden condition.

AL - I don't think an alter 'covering a switch' necessarily needs to be dumped in the same basket as 'lying' or 'pretending' (and also, in your words, equated to knowing right from wrong). It really is just another way of a system doing what it is designed to do - protect itself.

[elevatedsoul]

like an actor associates himself with his characters persona to take on the characters life to make it seem more real?
the actor chooses to associate himself with the character or to morph into the character...?

and yeah i meant hidden vs florid... thanks..

i probably dont have d.i.d. .. but i do know that im not pretending..

im just frustrated, like wandering a forest lost with no name or flash light...
i wanna know who i am, whats wrong with me, and where the hell i am... is that so bad?
knowing whats wrong seems like a big part of understanding my personal condition and a big part of recovery, but maybe im wrong... maybe it doesnt matter, but i still just wanna understand my own experience, maybe know whether its mayonaise or mustard... is it spicy or mild... is it solid or fluid... what is it...?
does that make sense?

im just tired of being like this... like that song said "changing faster than the channels on the tv"

wish i had something good to add to the thread, ill try to shh.. i appreciate the information, its all informative...

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Luce

ES, I think you are referring to 'hidden' systems rather than those that are more open and 'florid'. I think it is generally accepted nowadays that the vast majority of DID systems are hidden, because that is their purpose, but initially books and films like 'Sybil' and 'The three faces of Eve' threw the psychiatric profession off the trail - they looked out for more florid presentations of multiplicity (and found few). It really is mostly a hidden condition.

AL - I don't think an alter 'covering a switch' necessarily needs to be dumped in the same basket as 'lying' or 'pretending' (and also, in your words, equated to knowing right from wrong). It really is just another way of a system doing what it is designed to do - protect itself.

thanks Luce Im not talking about having to cover switching from alter to alter... my point is some people with DID when they get into hard situations they switch where as other people with DID rather than switching pretend....

heres what I mean....

when I was not integrated an intimate conversation with friends would cause me to switch into the alter thelma because it was part of thelmas job, purpose reason for being created (sense of agency stuff) to handle intimate conversations. my friends would not be able to tell the difference between me and thelma, I was triggered so I switched.

now lets put this same situation into say if my system was that of pretending (the other thread)

an intimate conversation with friends making me or my alters uncomfortable. instead of switching go into pretending to be ok mode, Rainy standing there with a grin on her face listening and pretending everything is ok, even though the conversation is scaring her she still pretends everything is ok, then pretends she has to go to the bathroom,... Hey guys excuse me for a minute I have to go to the restroom be back in a minute still pretending everything is ok, once in the bathroom let down the guard. whew hate that conversation maybe by the time i get back out there they wont be talking about that anymore, oops here comes somebody I better look like Im washing my hands even though I didnt go to the bathroom...this goes on an elaborate pretending rather than switching to another alter or host that can handle the situation.

my system of alters was the first kind where in situations that I could not handle or was triggering which ever alter who handled that took control. my alters didnt go through where they had to pretend to be ok or one another in order to get things done. we just kept switching.

see what I mean, Im not talking about covering up switching Im talking about having the kind of system where you switch .......instead of......... pretending.

[elevatedsoul]

can you do a mixture?

if so what would cause you to pretend sometimes and other times just switch?

[whispers_inthedark]

I think I kind of identify with this. The various alters feel safe talking to a set of my friends who do know about my disorder (three friends who are close enough that we all (or most of us) feel safe talking to them as ourselves). One of the people talks to one of them more than the others, one talks to another to the point that he's actually basically his friend, instead of me being his friend. if that makes sense. For the most part if an alter has a friend and they don't know I have DID then they will present as me but act like them. We are really similar which makes things easier to deal with than many people seem to struggle with, because of that we're super high functioning. it's kind of nice to know that for the most part, they're all going to act like me and give my name as theirs instead of introduce themselves as someone else.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by elevatedsoul

can you do a mixture?

if so what would cause you to pretend sometimes and other times just switch?

some do some dont. depends upon many factors. your treatment providers can tell you which kind of system you have and what factors in to this depending upon your own diagnosis's, your recent testing results from january, mental and physical health, abuse history, whether or not your alcohol or drugs issues factor in.... my point theres lots of things that go into why a person would pretend sometimes and then switch other times, a big part of this you cant find online you have to go through your own treatment providers who will help you to discover all the hows, whats and whys your issues\ problems\ diagnosis's and such are the way they are for you.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by whispers_inthedark

I think I kind of identify with this. The various alters feel safe talking to a set of my friends who do know about my disorder (three friends who are close enough that we all (or most of us) feel safe talking to them as ourselves). One of the people talks to one of them more than the others, one talks to another to the point that he's actually basically his friend, instead of me being his friend. if that makes sense. For the most part if an alter has a friend and they don't know I have DID then they will present as me but act like them. We are really similar which makes things easier to deal with than many people seem to struggle with, because of that we're super high functioning. it's kind of nice to know that for the most part, they're all going to act like me and give my name as theirs instead of introduce themselves as someone else.

so your system according to your post is one where pretending is part of your alters like in this thread http://forums.psychcentral.com/disso...retending.html

Im different than that other thread my alters would switch from one to another. my alters did not pretend to be each other. with me its the other side of pretending (in other words not pretending)

[yagr]

I replied to and related to the thread "The joy of pretending" but this one has confused me I think though, that I've figured out where my confusion stems from and so, in the event anyone else can see themselves in this post...here I go:

Pretending for me is this: Yagr is talking to an adult and completely unexpectedly they mention their favorite Disney songs. We've switched. I mean the opportunity to talk about 'Under the Sea' is just too good to pass up and the body just got jacked. Now Sonseearae is having the conversation, not Yagr. We aren't pretending here.

But Sonseearae knows that if she cannot pretend to be me effectively, the Under the Sea conversation is going to very quickly turn in to a 'who are you and what have you done with my friend' conversation - so she pretends to be me while talking all things mermaid.

That's how I meant 'pretending' in the first thread and I assumed that everyone else who was talking about pretending meant. Kind of self-centered thinking....I'll have to keep a better eye on that. Anyway, my point is that an alter can take over completely and present as if no switching took place. Is this what you are referring to as 'pretending'?

[Luce]

Originally Posted by yagr

I replied to and related to the thread "The joy of pretending" but this one has confused me I think though, that I've figured out where my confusion stems from and so, in the event anyone else can see themselves in this post...here I go:

Pretending for me is this: Yagr is talking to an adult and completely unexpectedly they mention their favorite Disney songs. We've switched. I mean the opportunity to talk about 'Under the Sea' is just too good to pass up and the body just got jacked. Now Sonseearae is having the conversation, not Yagr. We aren't pretending here.

But Sonseearae knows that if she cannot pretend to be me effectively, the Under the Sea conversation is going to very quickly turn in to a 'who are you and what have you done with my friend' conversation - so she pretends to be me while talking all things mermaid.

That's how I meant 'pretending' in the first thread and I assumed that everyone else who was talking about pretending meant. Kind of self-centered thinking....I'll have to keep a better eye on that. Anyway, my point is that an alter can take over completely and present as if no switching took place. Is this what you are referring to as 'pretending'?

That is what I thought we were talking about, yagr, and I too am confused.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by yagr

I replied to and related to the thread "The joy of pretending" but this one has confused me I think though, that I've figured out where my confusion stems from and so, in the event anyone else can see themselves in this post...here I go:

Pretending for me is this: Yagr is talking to an adult and completely unexpectedly they mention their favorite Disney songs. We've switched. I mean the opportunity to talk about 'Under the Sea' is just too good to pass up and the body just got jacked. Now Sonseearae is having the conversation, not Yagr. We aren't pretending here.

But Sonseearae knows that if she cannot pretend to be me effectively, the Under the Sea conversation is going to very quickly turn in to a 'who are you and what have you done with my friend' conversation - so she pretends to be me while talking all things mermaid.

That's how I meant 'pretending' in the first thread and I assumed that everyone else who was talking about pretending meant. Kind of self-centered thinking....I'll have to keep a better eye on that. Anyway, my point is that an alter can take over completely and present as if no switching took place. Is this what you are referring to as 'pretending'?

yes sort of thats what I mean only there is.... no pretending.... the alters just keep switching. to use your situation in your post instead of sonseearae pretending to be you, a switch happens so that the conversation about mermaids is with you again....

heres another of my own systems examples...

thunder and lightending I switch into rainy. a friend talks about sunshine so a switch happens and sunny is talking about sunshine but then the conversation turns to intimacy so a switch happens and now its thelma. then the conversation turns to the last storm we had so a switch happens and its now rainy talking....

no one is pretending to be anyone else just constant switching from one to another depending upon who handles what.

there is no questioning by others like who are you, what did you do with my friend because no one is pretending to be anyone else. just switching from one to another based on who's job, purpose, reason for being is to handle that situation.

I called this thread "pretending the other side" because in life there are two sides to things those that do and those that dont. this thread is the other side of the other pretending thread. I had a system of alters that did not pretend and did not want to hijack the other thread that was for those that do have an element of pretending in their system.