[Abby]

Two questions:

1) for those of you whose therapist has explained their dissociation through the 'structural dissociation of the personality" theory (ANP/EP) - how was this explained to you and have you told anyone else in your family/friends about it? If you have, how have you explained it? I want to explain why I can seem happy and competent to someone I'm close to but simultaneously I'm neither of those and that's why I may react with depression, self harm (potentially won't mention this) and being more emotionally reactive to minor events/interactions that shouldn't normally be the case for most people. How do you explain a fear isn't just a phobia that you can counteract logically but actually more of a flashback, without using that word? I don't feel I have any significant trauma issues, more grief, and again I don't believe I should have these types of reactions due to that so I'm reluctant to say "i have little to traumas/grief" out loud.

2) do people generally with dissociation find mindfulness or meditation quite uncomfortable to think about, let alone do? I keep reading everywhere how calming it is and positive effect but when I've tried in the past it makes me freak out. I'm unsure why, it is just the case. I'd be interested to hear other people's experiences.

Thank you.

[bearguardian]

Maybe some things freak you out to get away from them. But sometimes they have to tell you something that is important. Try going more through it and if freakness persists, just stop. You can apply this to almost everything.

[L.P.]

If a therapist ever explained this stuff in that way to anyone in my system, I am unaware of it, so I can't really speak on that. But I'd probably say something about how everyone has stuff going on in their heads under the surface... like if you are having a really bad day and maybe stressing bills or a breakup or whatever, you shove that crap down and slap on a smile when you do stuff like go to work. Just because you can do your job and not be a sobbing wreck, it does not mean all is fine and dandy on the inside. Most people can play okay for a given amount of time... then they go home and fall apart, cry and eat ice cream or whatever.

When it comes to explaining to people why things set me off, I generally just say that x y or z is just setting off bells and whistles in my head because it reminds me of some rotten thing I lived through one time and I still get kind of punchy about that. It has been my experience most people have some not so great memory in life and they can relate somewhat.

As for mindfulness and meditation, I like that stuff. It tends to help keep me more grounded and centered not only in my skin but in the present. But that's just me. I should say though, that sometimes meditation fails me miserably because I am prone to random bouts of really loud internal chatter. Times like those it is impossible for me to get calm, quiet, down time. Those times it is the opposite of helpful. *shrugs*

-Veda

[amandalouise]

Abby, wasnt sure if I recognized your name so I went back and reread some of your posts. what I found out is that you dont live in the USA. you live in an area that may or may not use the term structural dissociation depending upon whether where you are now (one or more of your posts mentioned india) uses the DSM 5 standards or other diagnostic manuals that are not on the DSM5/ICD 10 standards.

my point is many locations no longer use the term structural dissociation so many countries no longer explain it to their clients as this or in this type of format. there is many websites on the internet that explains what it used to be before the countries changed their standards for mental health care your treatment providers would be the best place to get information on this based on what the term structural dissociation means in your location. getting it from online sources could end up doing yourself more harm....

for example if you are still in india and someone here from Europe tells you what it is in their own location and you use that persons terms, and problems for explaining your own you could end up getting diagnosed with another mental disorder

or worse since here in america we do not have a .....mental disorder...... called structural dissociation, anyone that tells their treatment provider something like "I think I have structural dissociation" that person runs the risk of their treatment provider saying directly to them sorry there is no such thing as that here so you cant have that disorder. or the treatment provider listens politely and then writes on the file..... fictitious disorder imposed on self reason for this diagnosis there is no disorder called structural dissociation in the dsm 5.

see what I mean... the best person for you to get information on what this is, in you and your location is by contacting the treatment provider who diagnosed you with this and ask them to clarify what that means in you and your location.

there are just so many different countries and standards I'd hate for you to cause your self more problems by trying to figure things out online and then end up going by whats not in your location.

[finding_my_way]

i believe some have, and my current therapist has. i also have read a lot on it, but it's not information i can really hold on to for whatever reason. even when my therapist explains things more in depth (like how alters/parts develop), it causes me to dissociate.

i did tell some family members about basic dissociation and just explained in my own words what it was like, how things i don't always understand can cause me to become anxious/panicky (a trigger) and then cause my brain to become overwhelmed and shut down so things around me feel strange, like a dream, or i am physically numb and detached from my body, etc. i was surprised when one of my sister's started talking about dissociation as she had mentioned that it was like having a filing cabinet and each feeling, memory, etc. has its own file within it separated from each other. i still don't know where she learned that but was glad she had a basic understanding at least.

i have not found i can explain everything to family/friends in basic enough ways, and they tend to forget what i say since i appear to them to be perfectly functional, so they don't think i struggle still. i do, but it's not as external as it used to be through self harm and anorexia.

i find it hard to do any kind of meditation or not have noise around me (the TV, etc.). i need noise or the silence makes me uncomfortable. even if i am with someone and it's quiet, i need background noise. i at least can be alone now where in the past, it was unbearable and dangerous at times due to certain thoughts/feelings. but meditation is a no go.

[Michael W. Harris]

Originally Posted by Abby

Two questions:

1) for those of you whose therapist has explained their dissociation through the 'structural dissociation of the personality" theory (ANP/EP) - how was this explained to you and have you told anyone else in your family/friends about it? If you have, how have you explained it? I want to explain why I can seem happy and competent to someone I'm close to but simultaneously I'm neither of those and that's why I may react with depression, self harm (potentially won't mention this) and being more emotionally reactive to minor events/interactions that shouldn't normally be the case for most people. How do you explain a fear isn't just a phobia that you can counteract logically but actually more of a flashback, without using that word? I don't feel I have any significant trauma issues, more grief, and again I don't believe I should have these types of reactions due to that so I'm reluctant to say "i have little to traumas/grief" out loud.

2) do people generally with dissociation find mindfulness or meditation quite uncomfortable to think about, let alone do? I keep reading everywhere how calming it is and positive effect but when I've tried in the past it makes me freak out. I'm unsure why, it is just the case. I'd be interested to hear other people's experiences.

Thank you.

It was grief that broke my little toddler brain more than the physical abuse. I was kept in non-stop psychological stress and emotional pain for the first three years of my life by my mentally ill two year older brother and my mother. Grief and psychological stress will traumatize a toddler!!!!

Mindfulness works if you have healthy loved ones and professionals to support you. If your basic human needs are not being met, mindfulness will not work long term until someone helps you get your basic needs met.

Sorry...I'm no expert...but structural dissociation just seems to be a medical scientist theory on how it works....mri and what ever...

But from a practical view....trauma causes problems of any form and variety.

So let the healing begin and leave the test tube fundamentals to the medically inspired professionel theorists.

[Luce]

Abby, this might be helpful: http://www.estd.org/conferences/pres...der%20Hart.pdf

I really would hope that no trained clinician would tell you you had factitious disorder if you asked them about structural dissociation. If they did they would be completely negligent and incompetent. One would really hope they know and understand the difference between a disorder and a theory, for a start.
I would hope that the first question asked when a client asked a clinician abut structural dissociation would be "Tell me more about that" rather than giving a polite smile and giving you a (completely wrong!) label of 'factitious disorder'. Any clinician who did such a thing should have their license revoked. Seriously!

People are now changing their understanding to *incorporate* the theory of structural dissociation rather than moving away from it. It is become MORE well known, more integrated into practice and used to inform and underpin practice rather than be dismissed.
For instance, in many countries, including the USA, learning about the theory of structural dissociation is now a required component of advanced EMDR training courses.

[amandalouise]

Abby..... I did some checking on this for you. your location (India) does.... not .....use the term structural dissociation.

your location uses the term core components...... (the standard of 5 core components of dissociation.)

this is different than what you see online in terms of structural dissociation. it doesnt rate dissociation and alters according to importance and which alter sprung from who and parts of self like ANP/EP

The core components explaination and treatment standard works on the whole person based on the 5 core dissociative symptoms of amnesia, depersonalization, derealization, identity confusion and identity alteration. your location works on these as all one whole person not separate parts of self. (no EP's , no ANP's no alternate personalities, in otyher words they do not designate separation of self. )

treatment focuses on learning how recognize and treat each of these 5 core problems. example if someone was having amnesia not only does the treatment focus on the amnesia but also the feelings of depersonalization, derealization, being confused as to what your identity is and those times when you feel like more than one person. no names are given to those feelings of being more than one person.

example if my treatment provider was using the core system and I told her I feel like I am more than one person. the treatment provider would not ask me for Rainys name or promoting rainys separateness from me. they would instead say something like

yes identity alterations can happen to anyone with any mental disorder lets work on this, when you feel like more than one person what does it feel like...

it feels like the other one is a scared.

what does it feel like to you.

it makes me feel scared and a bit strange because I feel distanced.

thats ok to feel depersonalization when you are going through identity alteration. do you remember when today you started to feel this way

no I just noticed it.

thats ok its common for amnesia to happen sometimes when feeling like more than one person (identity alteration) can you explain any more about how you are feeling

no

ok look around and tell me what you see. (grounding exercises that work for all 5 core dissociation problems)

mind you this is just an example. your treatment providers will probably take more time with you in your sessions explaining about the 5 core dissociation standard and how they want you to work through the process.

Originally Posted by Luce

Abby, this might be helpful: http://www.estd.org/conferences/pres...der%20Hart.pdf

I really would hope that no trained clinician would tell you you had factitious disorder if you asked them about structural dissociation. If they did they would be completely negligent and incompetent. One would really hope they know and understand the difference between a disorder and a theory, for a start.
I would hope that the first question asked when a client asked a clinician abut structural dissociation would be "Tell me more about that" rather than giving a polite smile and giving you a (completely wrong!) label of 'factitious disorder'. Any clinician who did such a thing should have their license revoked. Seriously!.

I agree with what Luce said.For one thing,therapy is supposed to be a safe place to say and ask anything you want and nobody should have to worry that anything they say or ask will cause them to be labeled as having ficticious disorder.Just because someone asks or says something doesn't mean they're malingering.I think if I was a professional I would be more apt to throw the label on someone that is well rehearsed on the newest terms,standards and manuals because the average person normally doesn't know those things.The average person isn't really expected to anyway,that's the professionals job.

For another thing,any professional worth their weight will listen to what you say or ask without making an immediate judgment,and as Luce said,say tell me more about that,not immediately think aha,they're faking.That sounds ridiculous for a professional to do and I agree that they should have their license revoked if they do.

Also,I did do that,I told my T a few years ago I thought I had structural dissociation.I didn't know what it was and hadn't heard of it but one of my insiders told me about it.What he did was got on his computer and searched for it,talked a little about it and then sent the info to my email while I was sitting there for me to read later.He did that because I was talking about it,I brought it up.It didn't change my diagnosis or anything.

And I want to comment on mindfulness and meditation too.Mindfulness is helpful,just being aware of what you are doing at any given time,noticing things in the present,etc.But meditation can sometimes cause dissociation and why for awhile my T suggested I don't do it.

[dlantern]

A small slither of that apparent normal alter, if you could think of it this way. The original has been created, the host and technically the trauma goes to school as a system without their awareness. A great friend at the elementary school is being very great to the host etc for some reason every body's reasoning isn't the same for the sake of confusion. What ever a reason, another child alter joins the trauma alter that is the original one.

Do they go in knowing one another, maybe at least that they exist? Do they begin to share the traumatic experiences? Is there a barrier from the trauma alter and when you need the apparently normal alters. Lets say for instance, there is group work you need to show yourself friendly she might get out and front. The opposite the song there is future in your fronting lol because we need more friendly interaction. The friendly elementary alter learns reads and uses itself until sufficiently stressed for the brain to say I had enough we need another alter could be parent a fictive etc.

I got our perspectives from research, forums, and from our systems along the way. I wish for the sake of some in here that think it isnt' possible to assist the along the way it could have come from someone in session. I'm only five years in so maybe a question clarity for a fun session for the educated could have gone over that possible later on for us possible.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Terish

I agree with what Luce said.For one thing,therapy is supposed to be a safe place to say and ask anything you want and nobody should have to worry that anything they say or ask will cause them to be labeled as having ficticious disorder.Just because someone asks or says something doesn't mean they're malingering.I think if I was a professional I would be more apt to throw the label on someone that is well rehearsed on the newest terms,standards and manuals because the average person normally doesn't know those things.The average person isn't really expected to anyway,that's the professionals job.

For another thing,any professional worth their weight will listen to what you say or ask without making an immediate judgment,and as Luce said,say tell me more about that,not immediately think aha,they're faking.That sounds ridiculous for a professional to do and I agree that they should have their license revoked if they do.

Also,I did do that,I told my T a few years ago I thought I had structural dissociation.I didn't know what it was and hadn't heard of it but one of my insiders told me about it.What he did was got on his computer and searched for it,talked a little about it and then sent the info to my email while I was sitting there for me to read later.He did that because I was talking about it,I brought it up.It didn't change my diagnosis or anything.

And I want to comment on mindfulness and meditation too.Mindfulness is helpful,just being aware of what you are doing at any given time,noticing things in the present,etc.But meditation can sometimes cause dissociation and why for awhile my T suggested I don't do it.

I think you might have the wrong idea about my post, this can happen when other posters take sections of my posts out of context.

my point of my post was to go according to ones ......own location..... (in this case if anyone had taken the time to read the posters past posts and checked out their locations mental health system they would have found that the posters location uses the core system not the structural dissociation module of treatment) , the example you are talking about in my post, was only what happens between me and my own treatment provider and treatment providers in my own location. no treatment providers do not just jump to the conclusions of this person is faking it.

short version america now has a new way of working with mental illness and their clients. one of those ways is to keep the patient informed. if the patent is one that does research on the internet it it perfectly acceptable now for treatment providers to tell that patient no they do not have a mental disorder that is not listed in that locations diagnostic manual...

if you reread my post you will see I purposely used the wording that structural dissociation was not a .......mental disorder.... in my location. I did this because the poster worded their question as structural dissociation being a mental disorder.... they did not word itasking for people who use the structural dissociation treatment model. they asked for people who have structural dissociation.

some locations outside the USA do consider structural dissociation to be a mental disorder label but mine does not. the dissociative disorders in my location are ...

Dissociative Identity Disorder
Dissociative Amnesia
Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder
Other Specified Dissociative Disorder
Unspecified Dissociative Disorder

so if someone while talking about mental disorders states they have a mental disorder called structural dissociation disorder it is perfectly safe and appropriate for the treatment provider in my location to either say no you do not have that mental disorder or write the person up as to having fictitious disorder imposed on self. fictitious disorder imposed on self is used in my location when someone is trying to label.......their self.... with a mental disorder that is not recognized in ...........their own location......

only that person and their own treatment provider can say what and how that treatment provider does things is right or wrong.

it is not wrong or unethical or unsafe for my location to tell a person they do not have .....structural dissociation disorder

it is not wrong or unethical or unsafe for a treatment provider to label someone who is self diagnosing with a mental disorder they do not have as being factitious disorder imposed on self.

one thing people tend to forget about when online.... is that many locations have many different mental and physical health disorders. not all countries, states, cities, towns and treatment providers use the same diagnostics, definitions, treatment models and so on.

some people use the structural dissociation model others use the core system model of dissociation and still others use other treatment models. and each location and treatment provider has their own standards of what to call it when a client tries to self diagnose with a mental disorder that is not recognized in their location.

[Luce]

Abby, these pages might help you: the link attached here describes ANPs and EPs, and you will find links on the page that will take you to more info about primary, secondary and tertiary structural dissociation. http://did-research.org/origin/struc...on/anp_ep.html
I have never tried to explain structural dissociation to a relative or friend, but I suspect it would help to firstly describe the ANP and EP in terms of what is happening in PTSD. Many people have a at least a vague idea about PTSD, so it might aid their understanding of the theory of structural dissociation if they can apply it firstly to something they are familiar with. From there it isn't hard to extrapolate that understanding to the more complex forms of dissociation.
Good luck!

[*Laurie*]

There's a ton of information about structural dissociation online. Just google it.

I have a constant sense of derealization (dissociation). I have also practiced mindfulness meditation for over 30 years. It does not do anything to help the dissociation. It does help me feel more confident in my ability to cope with challenging life events.

This thread doesn't even make sense to me anymore.The OP asked this:

.
1) for those of you whose therapist has explained their dissociation through the 'structural dissociation of the personality" theory (ANP/EP) - how was this explained to you and have you told anyone else in your family/friends about it? If you have, how have you explained it?

And another question about mindfulness and meditation.It was then taken off topic and turned into a lecture about location and how things are done,which the OP didn't even ask about,turned into a discussion about facticious disorder., another lecture about people taking things out of context,people calling structural dissociation a mental disorder,etc and is completely off topic from the original questions that were asked in the beginning.

It doesn't even make sense!

It's too confusing,I don't see where anything was taken out of context.I quoted Luce"s post because I agreed with what was said because I had also read this by amandalouise:

. or worse since here in america we do not have a .....mental disorder...... called structural dissociation, anyone that tells their treatment provider something like "I think I have structural dissociation" that person runs the risk of their treatment provider saying directly to them sorry there is no such thing as that here so you cant have that disorder. or the treatment provider listens politely and then writes on the file..... fictitious disorder imposed on self reason for this diagnosis there is no disorder called structural dissociation in the dsm 5.

I gave my thoughts and opinions on that and then I was basically told my opinion is wrong,that it's not unethical to give someone the label of ficticious disorder,told I didn't read all the posts,etc......

This feels like gaslighting to me and sure makes me not want to post at all.

Originally Posted by Abby

Two questions:

1) for those of you whose therapist has explained their dissociation through the 'structural dissociation of the personality" theory (ANP/EP) - how was this explained to you and have you told anyone else in your family/friends about it? If you have, how have you explained it? I want to explain why I can seem happy and competent to someone I'm close to but simultaneously I'm neither of those and that's why I may react with depression, self harm (potentially won't mention this) and being more emotionally reactive to minor events/interactions that shouldn't normally be the case for most people. How do you explain a fear isn't just a phobia that you can counteract logically but actually more of a flashback, without using that word? I don't feel I have any significant trauma issues, more grief, and again I don't believe I should have these types of reactions due to that so I'm reluctant to say "i have little to traumas/grief" out loud.

2) do people generally with dissociation find mindfulness or meditation quite uncomfortable to think about, let alone do? I keep reading everywhere how calming it is and positive effect but when I've tried in the past it makes me freak out. I'm unsure why, it is just the case. I'd be interested to hear other people's experiences.

Thank you.

Me myself read and studied about the theory which basically helped me understand how the mind is functioning...and how our system was built due to the initial trauma memory backing up following trauma memories held in queue becoming Others.

Now telling other people about it: they look at me like I'm crazy to point fingers....so I quit and don't because peoples' mind set is that it isn't real.

I/we can't meditate nor function smoothly without an Other not wanting to be involved....there is no way we can clear a crowded mind...especially when co-conscience. It's like walking into a school's cafeteria at lunch time trying to meditate...good luck with that one.

[Luce]

I was reading one of Kathy Steele's books yesterday (through the look inside feature on Amazon.com) and she was talking about dissociation being driven by a 'phobia' of one's own internal experience. (Which makes total sense when you consider the theories of dissociative experiences and how dissociation becomes self-perpetuating in a way, as the dissociated material feels too overwhelming so is pushed away).
From that perspective - with the ANP being 'phobic' about the dissociated experiences of the EPs - meditation and mindfulness practices would be very threatening, as they are integrative practices rather than dissociative ones. They encourage one to become more aware of their own internal experiences, but in dissociative disorders the dissociative mechanisms are maintained by avoidance of internal experience.
I do not meditate and have an aversion to it, but at this stage of our healing I am able to become more mindful, and it helps. I have a strong drive for this - I *need* to get my selves together and functioning better - and that is my particular role in this system. I am trying very hard to overcome those internal phobias and break down our dissociation, but we would not have been able to do this earlier on in our therapy process.
But yeah - it makes total sense why you might be averse to mindfulness and meditation practices, Abby.

[TheDragon]

1) for those of you whose therapist has explained their dissociation through the 'structural dissociation of the personality" theory (ANP/EP) - how was this explained to you and have you told anyone else in your family/friends about it? If you have, how have you explained it? I want to explain why I can seem happy and competent to someone I'm close to but simultaneously I'm neither of those and that's why I may react with depression, self harm (potentially won't mention this) and being more emotionally reactive to minor events/interactions that shouldn't normally be the case for most people. How do you explain a fear isn't just a phobia that you can counteract logically but actually more of a flashback, without using that word? I don't feel I have any significant trauma issues, more grief, and again I don't believe I should have these types of reactions due to that so I'm reluctant to say "i have little to traumas/grief" out loud.

>> My therapists and I have talked a bit about the studies done on how DID is formed and what it is but most of that isn't too relevant to therapy, unless you really feel the need to totally understand it on an academic level to get better.

I recently decided to share the diagnoses with my family because the explanations I gave in the past about why I'm the way I am just wasn't enough anymore. One of my therapist basically helped me through the whole process and did most of the explaining and made sure my family was supportive and connected in the right way. It was definitely one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. I've spent my whole life trying to hide it from everyone, especially myself so sharing with my family, the people I've had to hide it from the most, was hard. It still feels surreal to me.

I definitely relate to not reacting to things "normally" on an emotional level. There have been times I've gotten totally triggered and snapped at things that just shouldn't have bothered me. Usually the word I use is triggered because it might not necessarily be a flashback and the event that leads to me snapping is the trigger....

2) do people generally with dissociation find mindfulness or meditation quite uncomfortable to think about, let alone do? I keep reading everywhere how calming it is and positive effect but when I've tried in the past it makes me freak out. I'm unsure why, it is just the case. I'd be interested to hear other people's experiences.

>>Before I was properly diagnosed I was sent to a support group that did mindfulness as part of the program and I found it the opposite of harmful. Once I was properly diagnosed and got therapists who specialized in trauma/DID they told me that mindfulness can often be the wrong thing for people with dissociative disorders because most forms of mindfulness is supposed to take you far enough from your emotions to be able to observe how you are in the moment, but if you're dissociative you probably spend too much time "observing" already. Plus mindfulness is a kind of self hypnosis and being dissociative often means you're in that kind of state often enough.

There's definitely parts of mindfulness that can be useful and can help with grounding, but overall mindfulness can definitely be something that's uncomfortable if you're dealing with a dissociative disorder.

Mindfulness and meditation..both really help me now but before they were more harmful than helpful.